I agree with you, my W just might have to learn from her mistakes when it comes to this sitch. I am living this sitch and have felt this for sometime now. I really do not hold out much hope on her words and actions anymore. I used to try to feast on the crumbs that she throws me. She rightnow is detremined to go through with this D and knowing her personality until she really gets knocked down she will not have learned her lesson. I just hope that she doesn't cause to much more damage with family. They all have been hurt by all of this and that might make it hard to reconcile in the future. Especially with my IL's they deep down don't think that their daughter is in the right, but they are in the spot of loving/sympathizing her no matter what choices she makes. I have a hardtime with this but like they say blood is thicker then water. So much for leave and cleave...
I am glad you see hope for me because rightnow it is hard for even me to see it anymore. My friend today, one that has walked with me since day one, asked me how he can keep me accountable in the future to stay active in my DD's lives. This thought came from the fact that I told him statistically speaking the parent that doesn't have primary custody in 6 months typically starts fading away out of the kids lives... I feel this is crazy and won't happen to me and my girls, but I never thought D would happen between my W and I.
Another fun comment from my W today is that he thinks that I am up to something. What I do not know. I asked what it was that she thought I was up to but she would not answer..... What could she think that I am up to??? Hell if I could do something that would let me get custody of my kids I would. But I think that is unlikely even if I stack the deck in favor of me.
I just got back from a vacation and had to catch up on your thread. One thing I wanted to comment on was the MC. Are you still trying to talk your wife out of the divorce? Or did you hope the MC might do that? You need to consider if trying to talk her out of it only seems to make her more determined to go through with it. I personally think your better chance is to support it.... Not "it" but HER decision. Whatever it be. By supporting her decision she's responsible for it and has nothing to fight against. By having your "support" she's fully responsible for the decision and you have the best chance of tension decreasing.
Oh man, when you were massaging her back you should have blown in her ear!!! Instead of doing the expected, try doing the unexpected. And when she brings up divorce either change the subject or just agree or say... it will all be over soon enough, don't worry so much, the lawyers will take care of that.
And BE HAPPY in front of her!!!!! (even if you are falling apart!!! Be a great actor).
There is no arriving, ever. It is all a continual becoming.
don't you dare give up on the custody issue so fast. Why on earth wouldn't you get joint custody ( you will unless you are unfit) AND then work out the % as joint c does not necessarily mean 50/50 physical custody??
Your schedule is relevant obviously. But you'll very likely get get at least joint legal c (=joint decision making, schools, medical, religious education) and you should most definitely go for half time custody and CONSIDER going for full physical custody if you can (while calling it "joint"). I don't know your hours but your w's hours, since I assume she is a nurse, probably won't be great or regular and you have more power in this than you realize.
As for her comment about you being "up to something"--that is her fear talking. Of course she is afraid of not seeing them as much or just getting them 50/50. Or looking bad. But Financially speaking, if you do divorce and she does marry the MD, you'll actually be better off....(hey, I'm just saying...)
As for the inlaws, I think you will have to work on feeling better about that for 2 reasons. First, it is unrealistic to expect them to disown their daughter, especially when they value their R's with the grandkids. Second, if they did disown her, it would make things worse for the M and increase the likelihood of divorce, imho. You seem to be getting about the best you can, although I can tell you if either of my daughters do something like this, I'll have a long drawn out sit down talk with them, more than once. But again, I want R's with my grandkids and if I alienate the daughter too much, I could lose her and the grandkids, and besides, there are surely a few true issues or faults in you that make her feelings a tiny bit more understandable (I know, even YOU....join the human club)...go easy on them for now. It can only help you. Back off, take a step back and believe in yourself, your worthiness as a man. Of course that is hard after taking a few body blows like you have/are. But it really does help, I think AND it surely is good for your girls to see.
Do NOT accept the "dad's out of the picture" BS. Sometimes I think men say stuff like that to make it easier on themselves for allowing the distance to grow, or to prepare for the worst. I simply reject that.
I have 3 divorced brothers with daughters. The oldest 1 of them moved away for a job and HE feels close to her. She is his only child but he is an absentee phone in/send a check type of dad. He takes her on trips a lot. But there isn't day to day itneraction the way there would be if he had stayed in the area, or the M. He filed for divorce and was a fool, but the ex sister in law, whom I stay in close contact with, is truyly better off. Though he loves their daughter a lot, he does seem more like an uncle to her, in my eyes at least. But he was always self centered.
Now, The other 2 brothers, I must say, have been truly good dads. Our dad was not a great role model in some big ways and they are both Much better than what we grew up with. These 2 brothers, ("M and JL") attended EVERY game or dance recital that I can think of. Neither accepted employment out of the area even when times were tough and they had to cut back on finances. And they are as close, if not closer, to their daughters than their ex-wives are. Seriously. My brother JL, has 3 girls and re-married a woman with 3 girls and they've had a daughter (18months) together. 2 weeks a month there are 7 girls, + his wife, and my brother JL. That's a lot of estrogen...(maybe some days he is glad to have half of them take a break...??)
My brother M worked things out with his ex, which shocked me considering how miserable their M was. But he SHOWED UP... And they did well by their daughter. She is in grad school now, getting a PhD in psychology...(who knows? Maybe she'll be a mc)...
Dads can be close to their daughters. I have seen it. It can be done, but JL fought hard for it, and they both really hung in there, over the long haul. I suspect their daughters are looking for men like them...and I am positive that JL's daughters feel really close to him. He was/is a super involved dad.
Hang in there. Besides, it can only make you look better to your wife, your inlaws, US, and God. Don't sell yourself short. You are a good guy. j-
j-
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
I was wondering where you went, I missed your support and wise words.
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One thing I wanted to comment on was the MC. Are you still trying to talk your wife out of the divorce? Or did you hope the MC might do that?
I was actually hoping through MC she would get talked out of the D and make a commitment back to the M. Rightnow we are scheduled to go every other week for little while atleast. We'll have to sitback and see how it goes.
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By supporting her decision she's responsible for it and has nothing to fight against. By having your "support" she's fully responsible for the decision and you have the best chance of tension decreasing.
I have not supported her decision to this point. I guess it might be time for me to change my approach. If anything, like you said, it should decrease some of the tension that exists.
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Oh man, when you were massaging her back you should have blown in her ear!!! Instead of doing the expected, try doing the unexpected.
If I get another chance maybe I will try just that.... She did mention to me the yesterday that she was sore from the massage because she wasn't used to being touched. She used to get daily back massages like this and full body massage atleast once a week from me. She used to love recieving them and I used to love giving them.... Maybe she will get more comfortable asking for them again and I could bring her back down memory lane.
I am going to do whatever I can to get my girls as much as possible. I will fight to be a huge part of their lives for the rest of my life. The thought of not being apart of their lives makes me sad and scared for them and me. Being a Daddy to these beautiful girls is a huge responsibility that I don't take lightly. I just want to make sure my influence on them is positive and that they will have the hard task of trying to find a guy like their Dad to marry.
I agree with you about my IL's they don't want to lose their D and grand kids. And you are right there is a bit of truth in what my W is saying.... But what she is saying IMO is not grounds for D.
Last night my W came home and tried to answer my question to her the other night. I asked her "how in the world do I talk to my girls before there wedding day and tell them that D is not an option. Marriage is not easy and takes a lot of work. You cannot take back the vows and covenent that you make." I will look like a hypocrite being D saying this to them. Well her answer last night was that Jesus is full of grace and mercy and forgiveness... I agree 100% with this...I also told her that Jesus is the great healer, savor, restorer, rebuilder, reconciler..... He gave us a book with the answers that we need and it says to me that D is wrong. She obviously took offense and said "this is why we are where we are at today, you are to oppinionated and to black and white." The conversation pretty much ended right there.
Yes, she is still using her faith to justify D and she has connected with Sandi Patty. This lady was a famous Christian singer in the 90's that did the same thing as my W is now doing. It now seems like she is encouraging Christian women to follow suit. Commit adultry, D, then marry your A partner.... I don't see where in the Bible where this kind of actions are encouraged or approved. If any of you out there catch your W reading the book "Falling Forward" hide it.... I have not read through it so I really do not know its message. But since my W is connecting with the author I can only imagine what it is says.
I might read the book and give you a summary later....only half kidding. As I don't have OM to marry, YET, it's probably safe for me to read....fully kidding now.
Anyhow, my brother JL moved twice to be in the same school district as his girls and as best I recall, it was so if he got more custody, they'd remain in the same schools without any problems. It was all less than a 30 mile move, but that is the type of thing his ex would do, just after he'd sign a lease--she'd move the girls one district over, to make it harder for him I think. If not purposeful on her part, it was at least thoughtless and it happened more than once. But hey, in the end, it is my brother they are most close to. My niece was/is at Virginia Tech and it was my brother she called the day of the shootings and my brother who went and brought her home for a week.
You are pushing your w a bit with the divorce condemnation. She knows all this but is searching for justifications to think well of herself. When she mentions forgiveness I think she is praying hard for it. You will only make it harder for her to return if you appear to condemn and not be able to forgive. Recall the phrase, "Keep the Road Home Paved and Smooth", as difficult as that can be. And it is.
Maybe now and then you can mention how dangerous it is when we justify things, b/c rationalizing is a very dangerous habit. I practiced criminal law and for SOME of my clients, who were not ordinarily bad people but gave in to some terrible temptation or lost their cool, they'd inevitably start restructuring events and revising history so that they wouldn't see themselves in a bad light. I would confront them b/c it was important that the judge see their remorse or he would not see any chance for rehabilitation and the sentence would be effected. Only about a fourth of my clients, clearly guilty, could say and mean the words "I am sorry. I was wrong." It is ONLY THOSE clients who changed their lives for the better, and only some of them at that.
Seriously. It's a slippery slope. At this point, your girls are young enough that if you two did eventually reconcile, they might not even know about all this crap. And I do have 2 relatives who divorced, only to remarry their spouses years later. Both M's lasted with my uncle dying of cancer--but my aunt and their kids were at his side. My cousin and his wife are still married, and the 2nd time around was/is better. It happens.
j-
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
She rightnow is detremined to go through with this D and knowing her personality until she really gets knocked down she will not have learned her lesson.
Wow, my H and your W sound like they may have the same personalities. My H actually told me that he had to move away because he said that he was going to and he couldn't go back on his word. He must have forgotten about the words he promised me on our wedding day because he sure went back on those. I thought my H hit the bottom months ago, but then he becomes arrogant again. I'm still waiting for the day. It's going to come, but I think it will come when he sees me with someone else and realizes that he lost everything because of some woman that he doesn't even care about.
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I just hope that she doesn't cause to much more damage with family. They all have been hurt by all of this and that might make it hard to reconcile in the future. Especially with my IL's they deep down don't think that their daughter is in the right, but they are in the spot of loving/sympathizing her no matter what choices she makes. I have a hardtime with this but like they say blood is thicker then water.
My H has broken so many bridges with his family. Last week he told me that he was disowning his own mother because she will not stand by his side because she says that this is all so wrong. He gave me that same line that blood is thicker than water because it bothers him so much that his family actually wants to spend time with me. They would probably like to spend more time with him if he didn't lie about everything and was pleasant to be around. He's very frustrating to be around.
M:28, D finalized: 8/28/07 Current Thread
"When life gives you a hundred reasons to cry, show life that you have a thousand reasons to smile."
Well her answer last night was that Jesus is full of grace and mercy and forgiveness... I agree 100% with this...I also told her that Jesus is the great healer, savor, restorer, rebuilder, reconciler..... He gave us a book with the answers that we need and it says to me that D is wrong.
Baseball bat to you, Em. This conversation almost NEVER works. In fact, I understand why she retorted back at you. That conversation was NOT going to go anywhere. It only threw guilt at her. Yes..it makes a lot of sense to ME and YOU...but..not to her. I would refrain from this kind of talk. Listen MORE...talk LESS. Validate. 25 speaks with great truth.
Your W..like MY W..have heard this already. They know...they've heard us say it ad nauseum. EG....I used to say to my W over and over again a line that another DB'er said that moved mountains for me: "we are stronger together than apart". I loved that line...in fact...TOO MUCH. Until..one day, she said, 'yeah, financially'. I've never said it again.
Try to work on your best tools: -listening -trying not to fix -focusing on your beautiful girls -staying 'attractive'
If your W is a mining car running out of control into a mine....all you can do is step aside (or jump off). She'll find anything to support her decision, right or wrong (my W is looking for signs from beyond..in books..etc)
And finally...you MUST stay strong for your girls. One of the 2 of you MUST be the stable strong one. We already spoke of this Em, but ...those 2 girls of yours are going to choose men based on YOU. Get that book. Be the man you want your gals to marry some day. -turn the music on and dance with them in the morning -hold them...whisper to them....tell them how much daddy loves them -nuzzle them -tickle them at night..take big pillows out and make them into sandwiches with pickles, mustart, salt and pepper -reassure them that you will always be there -NEVER...NEVER....pit them between the two of you NO MATTER HOW BAD THINGS GET. NEVER MAKE THEM CHOOSE. NEVER ALIENATE.
If your beautiful girls know you love them...know you care...know you are consistent...know you go to see them at their functions....the truth 'will out' one day. They'll know Em. And one day, you'll shake the hand of the man who will marry them and you'll know you've done well. More importantly, if they come to you with a marital issue one day, what happened here will help YOU to help them.
Stay strong. Keep up the MC. Listen. Validate. Don't defend or fight. Think hard and long before responding.
FIB
Me 55; XW 47; 2 kids (S13, D11) Bomb 05/19/06 Original thread http://tinyurl.com/yg2ou2t Last anniversary 04/25/10, Divorced 5/12/10 Status: Loving father of 2 beautiful children;
Em, FIB is dead on. My W also told me that God released her from our marriage. She has total support from her, formerly our, church. She leading worship right now in a church with several thousand members. The music director, members of the worship team and even the pastors wife support her, telling her everything will be okay, just great and God is in this, He will take care of her.
In the beginning I gave her every possible scripture to counter what she was hearing. I asked her what did the scripture say about anyone, even an angel coming to us and saying something counter to the scripture? Didn't matter. Just strengthened her resolve.
Let that go. Don't engage. Agree. Yes, I believe God is telling you this. I can say that with sincerity.
You know why?
Because Eric Rudolph really believed God told him to kill abortion clinic doctors. The voice he heard and identified as God, really did tell him.
So yes, I do believe God told her it's okay. Yes, I do believe her spiritual support system would believe that D is okay.
Therefore I agree, sincerely and then leave it alone.
Do a 180 on this one, totally agree. Say, "Yes, I believe God told you this, I'm praying for God to tell me as well, I really would like to hear from God so I can have some peace/resolve on this issue. Pray for me, that I would hear from Him."
Then walk away. Let it drop. I treat it as if I was talking to someone like Eric Rudolph or David Koresch. Can anything I say change their mind? Nope. In their eyes, I'm just not spiritual enough or in tune with God enough or believe enough.
Okay. Let them win. It's a pointless discussion. The last time I talked about this with my W, quite some time ago by the way, I told her; look, you will swear all day long that God told you it's okay and right to leave. I will swear all day long God and his word say it's wrong to D and we can be whole as a family. Who is right? Only time will tell.
I haven't discussed it since. Don't argue with crazy people. To people passing by, it just looks like 2 crazy people going at it. =)
FIB, I have a few Lous. Sluggers in the garage that I will let you hit me with. You are absolutely right that this conversation does not work. I new it before I even opened my mouth. I should have just said "Yes you are probably right" and then left it at that. But no....I have to try and interject logic(as I view it)into the conversation and insure that the conversation goes down hill.
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And finally...you MUST stay strong for your girls. One of the 2 of you MUST be the stable strong one. We already spoke of this Em, but ...those 2 girls of yours are going to choose men based on YOU. Get that book. Be the man you want your gals to marry some day.
They are the owns that keep me going. I enjoy every minute that I get with them. If it is us going out camping, hanging with friends, firework shows, movies, or if we are just hanging out around the house I try to show them that I will always love them and be there for them. You are right in time they will know that I did all I could to keep this family together and it was their mom that ran away from problems instead of facing them. That is not to say that I am perfect and did not contribute to this sitch. It is just that I am the only one in this M that wants this to workout.
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Stay strong. Keep up the MC. Listen. Validate. Don't defend or fight. Think hard and long before responding.
Like you, I need to keep saying these to myself. Not doing these things only hurts my R or whats left of it.
