It's interesting how many people go around waving enemy flags while posturing as "loyal, patriotic Americans" and disparaging others for lack of patriotism.
a fine and enviable madness, this delusion that all questions have answers, and nothing is beyond the reach of a strong left arm.
How do you as a parent do this with your child? My formative parenting days are over, and I know what you are saying here, but how does it work out practically?
Well, my first goal has been to gain a good understanding of S4's personality type and temperament. From my reading I've got a pretty good sense of his type (probably type 5 like his dad). Also he seems to fit the description of being a "spirited child" and a highly-sensitive child. (I believe that cac is also "spirited" and I know that we are both HSPs.) S4 is definitely introverted.
Once I understand his behavior and the (personality) motivations behind it, I can encourage stepping out of his comfort zone, while still respecting his core personality. I don't ever want him to think that there's something wrong with him (as I thought about myself) just because he isn't "like everyone else." I want him to know that I love him for who he is, a lovable person.
It helps that the three of us have temperament similarities and that my personality type gives me a strong desire to understand others. I won't expect him to be extroverted or daring or a leader because those characteristics don't fit with his temperament. They don't fit with our types either. I will expect him to make his best effort in whatever he choses to do.
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I know I tried to express this to my child during her childhood, but I know I failed on occasion. I know some children are very sensitive to correction of any sort. So, how do you correct without the child experiencing that correction as a rejection of themself?
I'm not sure what you mean by correction. But I think it makes a difference how it's presented to the child. I try to make suggestions in an impersonal way. Instead of "you need to do it this way" I might say "how about trying it this way?" or "it might work this way." I do the same when I try to enforce rules. Rather than saying "you need to do x" I'll say "it's time to do x," or "please do x." If S4 balks then I say "the rules in the house are that we do x." So the child doesn't come out thinking that he's incompetent or stupid or bad.
I remember reading that parents shouldn't directly correct a child's speech, but that they should repeat the statement or word back to the child correctly. Child might say "he run across the street" and parent would say "oh, he ran across the street?" It's correcting without making the child feel bad about himself.
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I encountered some of this feeling as an adult when NOP and I were working on our sexual issues. The feeling of "but this is ME, this is who I am!" and "I'm having to change ME!" was one I had to deal with often and the resultant resentment that would sometimes arise. Have you encountered this yourself as you and cac work through things?
I don't really think I did. One of the things that attracted me to cac was that he seemed to accept me for who I was. Now I realize it's probably because of some similarities in our temperaments. We had similar negative high school experiences and we both blossomed in college. I never felt that I had to be or act like someone I wasn't.
Now, interestingly, I've made some changes and cac is responding, but I think he's feeling a bit of what you're describing. I'm finding that one of the gifts of raising a child is the opportunity to understand myself and cac better and that this understanding translates to a better R.
I don't know how your R came to change, but with us, it wasn't the result of the HD person making any sort of ultimatim. I never felt that cac was EXPECTING me to change; I simply came to realize that he was very unhappy and decided that I wanted to change. Once I realized that, I jumped in with both feet and left cac wondering what to do with the gator snapping at him (NOP's analogy a couple of months ago).
I guess maybe what I'm trying to say is that my identity has never really revolved around my sexuality (LD, HD, noD, etc.) My identity has always revolved around my sensitivities, my cautiousness, my introverted tendencies (which of course impact my sexuality). I imagine I wouldn't have fared well in an R with a extroverted, adventurous, dare-devil.
I do know that just the other day, a prominent conservative talk show host was seriously discussing the idea that the "Red" states should secede and make their own country with all the right Christian moral values, etc. If that ever happens, I'm moving.
Honestly, there have been times that I've almost wished they would. Then we could just go there for vacation.
I do know that just the other day, a prominent conservative talk show host was seriously discussing the idea that the "Red" states should secede and make their own country with all the right Christian moral values, etc.
Frankly, I think unconditional love is just an ego-protective notion within the context of a freely formed adult union. When somebody indicates "I am staying in this relationship even though you did terrible thing a,b and c because I believe in unconditional love." they are turning a blind eye to their own perhaps less pristine motivations for staying in the relationship. The lack of conditions attached to their love exist in exact proportion to their fears attached to no longer loving. "What will happen to me if I no longer love you?" is the question the concept of unconditional love avoids or renders moot. Few of us love ourselves enough to tolerate or even consider the psychological (as opposed to physical) state of being alone with equanimity. We tell our children "You will never be alone because I will always love you.". When we say to a partner "I love you unconditionally " we are really saying to ourselves "I will never be alone because my love will always bind me to my lover."
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Well, my first goal has been to gain a good understanding of S4's personality type and temperament. From my reading I've got a pretty good sense of his type (probably type 5 like his dad). Also he seems to fit the description of being a "spirited child" and a highly-sensitive child. (I believe that cac is also "spirited" and I know that we are both HSPs.) S4 is definitely introverted.
Once I understand his behavior and the (personality) motivations behind it, I can encourage stepping out of his comfort zone, while still respecting his core personality. I don't ever want him to think that there's something wrong with him (as I thought about myself) just because he isn't "like everyone else." I want him to know that I love him for who he is, a lovable person.
Well put. If you insist that he change something that he absolutely can't change, he'll keep failing and lose confidence. If you don't push him to be the best he can be, he'll miss the opportunity to succeed and build confidence. But first you've got to have a good idea of what he can and can't do, what is part of his core personality and what's just a matter of needing to learn and practice better behavior.
Originally Posted By: mrs.cac4
It helps that the three of us have temperament similarities and that my personality type gives me a strong desire to understand others. I won't expect him to be extroverted or daring or a leader because those characteristics don't fit with his temperament. They don't fit with our types either. I will expect him to make his best effort in whatever he choses to do.
I can see where that makes it easier. If the child has a completely different temperament from the parent, that parent can be very confused as to what behaviors and attitudes the child is and is not capable of.
Originally Posted By: mrs.cac4
I'm not sure what you mean by correction. But I think it makes a difference how it's presented to the child. I try to make suggestions in an impersonal way. Instead of "you need to do it this way" I might say "how about trying it this way?" or "it might work this way." I do the same when I try to enforce rules. Rather than saying "you need to do x" I'll say "it's time to do x," or "please do x." If S4 balks then I say "the rules in the house are that we do x." So the child doesn't come out thinking that he's incompetent or stupid or bad.
I remember reading that parents shouldn't directly correct a child's speech, but that they should repeat the statement or word back to the child correctly. Child might say "he run across the street" and parent would say "oh, he ran across the street?" It's correcting without making the child feel bad about himself.
One thing I always try to stick to when they mess up is "try again tomorrow". As in, they fell short today, but they're not doomed to fall short their whole lives... they can do better tomorrow. Not that they seem to even hear it when they're busy lamenting that their world has ended and every hope for happiness is gone because they have to miss an activity or stay in their room for five minutes, but maybe if we repeat it enough times, it'll stick.
a fine and enviable madness, this delusion that all questions have answers, and nothing is beyond the reach of a strong left arm.
Based on my understanding of unconditional love, if there is nothing I can say or do to my spouse that my spouse would find intolerable, his/her ongoing "I love you anyway" would start to feel a little creepy. It would seem that his/her love would have very little to do with me as a person and instead would have a great deal to do with his/her own personal needs.
Along the lines of what you wrote, the unconditional love becomes more about continuing to have an emotional security blanket for oneself rather than a real expression toward a real person.
I don't know how your R came to change, but with us, it wasn't the result of the HD person making any sort of ultimatim.
yeah, and that's just what that "I will not live in a sexless marriage" thing is. an "ultimatum", or (back to the original topic), a condition of staying married. call it a "boundary" or a ham-sandwich, if you like; its an edict for change. Personally, I don't feel that I have the leverage to be issuing such ultimatums. probably just as well, eh?
I'm unclear as to why you are so against making the statement "I will not live in a sexless M." It's not like you even have to make that decision because MrsCac has decided on her own to address the issues. But what about those people on here that don't have a S that is willing to look at their own part in the sexless state of the M? Should they just be patient and hope for the best? We've seen M go into decades of SSM. Seems to me the best progress has been made in confrontation, not just "being the best person you can be" and hope your S notices. LFL
FWIW, my W saw it as an ultimatum, too. Did it change the marriage? Her behavior? Our SL? No, but it did prompt her to contact a MC.
And, come to think of it, me saying "IWNLIASLMF" did end up enriching the life ... of the MC.
My view is that saying it can be a cage-shaker, and can open a dialogue on the issue, and can let the LD spouse know in fairly clear terms that this is a serious issue.
But yeah, I don't think that saying it's not an ultimatum is being totally honest with yourself. At the very least, it's an open-ended ultimatum - one without a specific deadline. (Ultimatum: A statement, especially in diplomatic negotiations, that expresses or implies the threat of serious penalties if the terms are not accepted.)
Still, it's a powerful statement and I don't regret saying it to my W.
