Anything wrong with you saying after you've kissed or cuddled her Honey I LOVE kissing you and I love it even more when you kiss or cuddle me first?
No, nothing wrong with that at all. In fact, I said as much to her last week during our camping trip with the kiddos...
It got pretty chilly at night in the tent, and she spent a lot of time in bed cuddling me close from behind with her hands inside my t-shirt, etc.
Jeez, that felt amazing. She's not done that in a long time. However, on the second night of her doing that, I tried to guide her hands downwards a little (as you do, after at least an hour of me silently willing her to do it herself, Jedi-mind-trick-style) and she hmmphed and pulled away. I just kinda brushed it off, didn't get sulky as I have done in the past, and went to sleep.
The next day, we took the kids to an animal park and as they ran off to play and we sat on a bench under a tree, there was a handler doing some kind of visitor demonstration with a great big python a few yards away. Totally unprompted, my W started joking about touching my 'snake' and I told her that she could any time she wanted, and that she could have had her own 'python demonstration' in the sleeping bag last night. ;o) She lay back against me and I put my arms around her, and we joked about it for a little while - and she actually said that she was asleep and didn't remember me gently pushing her hands down. Hmmm.
I did tell her that her cuddling me like that makes me feel great, though, and that I love it when we're close like that. Anyway, early the next morning, I reminded her that she could have a feel of my snake anytime she wanted, and she did kinda mechanically grab me like some kind of really tense robot for all of about 5 seconds before the kids woke up and charged in (they were in a separate bedroom at the other side of a pretty big tent, so they weren't around to get in the way *all* night).
The day after we returned at the weekend, tired after a super long drive, I spent two full days building her a huge deck in the garden, which she's wanted for a little while now (I've been waiting for payment for some freelance work I did before I could buy the stuff I needed). So that's two full days of me working pretty hard in damned hot sun while she sits and watches me with a cold drink, 'k: we eventually get into bed together last night with the deck finished outside and before I can even open my mouth/stroke her hair/kiss her neck, she immediately announces in no uncertain terms that she's 'tired', rolls over with her back to me and goes to sleep.
Arrrgh.
Jeez. I know I'm probably wrong for expecting a little bit of a 'reward', but how's that for a rejection??
Now, I've read the SSM book and I can see where I might have been going wrong in the past. So I'm backing off, not getting angry or sulky when she rejects me, not turning everyday kisses and hugs into something sexual, and most of all trying not to treat it like it's such a big deal to me. I'm doing more PMA stuff, like going surfing again regularly (something I LOVE, but have not been making the time for it recently). I'm also trying NOT to talk about this damned situation with her, unless she brings up the matter first.
And that's where it still confuses the hell out of me - she can make sexual jokes, AND she occasionally jokes about me not getting any (huh? twist the knife in whydontcha?), AND she can get really close to me in bed and on the sofa, AND we can hold hands when we're out, AND we often have random little kisses on the lips throughout the day, etc, etc, etc but I'm still not allowed to touch her intimately, and she'll only touch me if I gently remind her first that it's OK, and even then she's super tense about it, and it lasts all of about 5 seconds.
I don't think I'm in a position to ask her what's going on without her telling me AGAIN that this is how it is, and this is how it's going to be, or without her getting super PO'd about the whole thing all over again. In other words, I'm 110% certain that she'll not tell me anything new.
So as hard as this is for me, I feel like all I can really do is sit and wait for her to make the first move.
Only I'm not sure how long I can wait for her to make that move. And I really, really, REALLY don't want to be the one who makes the decision to split up our family.
(PS. I'm also trying to think about how I could get her to read the SSM book, too - at the very least because it does an excellent job of explaining how all this is making me feel, and also because she's dead against any kind of face to face counselling. Any thoughts on how to 'persuade' her to read it?)
Next time you are somewhere mostly private, and she reaches out to take your hand, withdraw it from her, then turn toward her and ask her how that made her feel, right now.
If she is honest, she will tell you some form of - she felt rejected. Then you can simply point out "how much worse do you think I feel every time you reject me for sex?".
All the best, -NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
NOP - I'll try to try that, if you see what I mean. Thanks.
One other thing... seeing as talking about this with her isn't going anywhere fast, I'm thinking about giving her a letter I've already written while I'm away for a weekend later this month.
But what I'd like to know is whether I could run it by you first before she sees it? I'd be grateful for your opinion on it.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
Aaarrrgh. Ok, do your worst, guys. All opinions appreciated. ;o)
Mrs AC...
Hey you - forgive the bluntness in this email, 'k... I haven't got what it takes to have an affair (which, I think, is a damned good personality trait) and believe me, I really don't want to be the one to split our family up, but I need to write this to you because talking about it hasn't gotten us anywhere yet - and probably won't get us anywhere anytime soon. And I'm sending this letter to you while I'm away so you have a chance to read it properly without us getting into a silly scrap about it all. ;op
You honestly have no clue how happy I was when we patched things up last year, but nearly a year after we did so, I'm now beginning to wonder why we actually did get back together. I acknowledge the part I played in our problems leading up to you leaving, and I really believed you when you said that this would be a 'fresh start' for us, and I'm trying so hard to make this start as fresh as possible from my side of things, which, hopefully you're noticing. Problem is, things are pretty much exactly the same as they were before we split - and yes, I'm talking about sex and intimacy, or rather the complete lack of it within our marriage.
The thing is, I really don't think that you have any idea what kind of effect this total lack of intimacy is having on me. The feelings of sheer rejection I'm experiencing on a day to day basis are absolutely immense, and while I adore the very ground you walk on, one thing I am now certain of is that I just can't go on like this for the rest of my life.
Yes, I've at last grown some bollocks and I'm facing this problem head on. One of us - if not both of us - has to.
I'm not sure whether you're happy to rattle along in half a relationship like this, but it's certainly not a NORMAL or HEALTHY place for either of us to be in. I'm hoping with all of my heart that you'd like to fix it just as much as I do, so we both can be happy in the marriage and we both can thrive in a normal, loving, and healthy relationship, and we both can set a damned good example to S6 and D3 for when they grow up and get to do it all themselves.
The thing is, I find it extremely difficult to put how I'm feeling into words without sounding like a desperate bloke who just wants a shag, but can you imagine lying awake in bed night after night after night (for literally hundreds and hundreds of nights on end) hoping with every last tiny cell in your body for some (any!) physical contact with the person you love more than anyone else in the world? Can you imagine trying time after time after time after time to initiate something (anything!), only for that same person to forcefully, physically, mechanically and literally push you away each and every time? Can you imagine hearing that person angrily say "get off me" every time you try to touch them intimately in bed, and believing that they really, really mean it? Can you imagine hearing that person make a point of telling you before you even get into bed how tired they are, or that they've got a headache, on what now seems like every other night, seemingly as a warning for you not to try anything? Can you imagine putting everything you have emotionally into a relationship only for the person you love to clam up and not even attempt to meet any of your needs? Can you imagine being physically near the person you love almost 24 hours a day, but not being allowed to get close to them at all?
Can you imagine how any of that would make YOU feel? Can you imagine what that does to your self-esteem? Your confidence? Your mood? Your view of relationships and marriage? Your outlook on life?
But the stupid thing is that it really shouldn't take much to fix. It's just that we've both got to step up and acknowledge that there's a problem, acknowledge that a marriage with no intimacy is not normal by any means, and promise each other that we'll both do whatever it takes to put things right.
We've already got a head start. We had a great sex life before the kids which means it wasn't always like this and it proves that we can be good together. We both love each other. And we've already got a cracking little family. Plus, virtually everything else about our marriage is great. Remember, this is all stuff that's working to our advantage.
I know you have no intention of going to any kind of counseling and to be honest, I'm not really into that either. So, I don't think I'm asking much here, but as a start, I'd appreciate it if you could read at least some of the book that's in the top drawer of my bedside cabinet - if only because it will do a much better job than I ever could in telling you how this whole situation is making me feel - and in describing the way we blokes think about stuff like this. I don't want to sound patronising at all, but I honestly think you'll learn something about the way us guys think. I've certainly learned stuff about women just by reading it. However, yes, it is a self-help book, and there is advice for me as well as for you, but on the whole, it's pretty interesting - and it could almost have been written about me and you.
I know you've recently told me that "you knew what I was like" and all kinds of other nonsense like that. Our relationship has really only been like this since we had kids so my guess is that it's something to do with the kids being around so much. And there are plenty of ways around that - like sticking a great big bloody lock on our bedroom door, for example. Heh. But only you know yourself best, and I could be completely wrong about what's causing this. I just get pissed off when you try to force me to believe that it's always been like this. Because it hasn't.
So, to start with, what would mean the world to me is if you could just let me know that you'd like us to have a normal, intimate marriage, too, and that like me, you'll do what it takes to get us there. Even just reading the book this weekend would tell me you're at least willing to try.
However, and this is where my new big bollocks come into it - if you're still not willing to try because you don't want to, or you can't, or you truthfully don't love me any more, or you think you're not 'in love' with me again (whatever that means?), or all you can give me is another wishy-washy, non-committal "give me time" speech, or you're involved emotionally or physically with someone else again, then I'm pretty certain that our marriage as it stands ain't gonna survive much longer.
I know you thought that I was content to just carry on like this and accept the scraps of a relationship whenever you felt like throwing them to me, but really I'm not. Or at least I'm not anymore. I need more from a marriage than you're giving me right now.
As you know, I'll do anything it takes. It's your call now.
From my own POV I would send it. I wish with all my heart my H had told me how he felt rather than have an A to replace what he felt I couldn't or wouldn't give him. Boy was he wrong about me.
I don't see how she could ignore this cry from the heart. Her answer may not be what you would like to hear but at least she can't go on with the pretence that everything is okay as it is.
I really wondered if something bad had happened while away. Something she's ashamed of or if she's worried about an std like herpes and thats why no contact below the waist. Don't really know cos my H wouldn't touch me either with the ED problem. Maybe she has the female version of ED.
At least this email is something she can't ignore and you really can't continue for years like choc did. I know he's having all these problems but how is that worse than just living the way you have been for the last year.
I really hope this works out for you and she reads the book and learns how to talk openly to you about why she's become this way.
Quote: "I know you've recently told me that "you knew what I was like" and all kinds of other nonsense like that. Our relationship has really only been like this since we had kids so my guess is that it's something to do with the kids being around so much. And there are plenty of ways around that - like sticking a great big bloody lock on our bedroom door, for example. Heh. But only you know yourself best, and I could be completely wrong about what's causing this. I just get pissed off when you try to force me to believe that it's always been like this. Because it hasn't."
You will definitely want to lose the disrespectful statements such as above, but don't change the truth, just present it matter of fact.
Quote:"However, and this is where my new big bollocks come into it - if you're still not willing to try because you don't want to, or you can't, or you truthfully don't love me any more, or you think you're not 'in love' with me again (whatever that means?), or all you can give me is another wishy-washy, non-committal "give me time" speech, or you're involved emotionally or physically with someone else again, then I'm pretty certain that our marriage as it stands ain't gonna survive much longer."
Again, reword to lose the disrespect.
So, have there been other relationships? If so, then you are not going to see real intimacy in your relationship until those are dealt with, and it will very likely require some good counseling.
If you are up for it, tell me about it when you get the letter done.
All the best, -NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
You will definitely want to lose the disrespectful statements such as above, but don't change the truth, just present it matter of fact.
Yep, that's a balance I'm trying to get right. I'll definitely look at this again... although, I'm still not 100% convinced that I'm going to send it just yet.
Last time we ML was 2 years ago on her birthday and it's her birthday again in 2 days' time. I've also been thinking back a little, and the last few times we ML were when we were away (weekends/trips, etc) together WITHOUT the kids, and we have another one of those booked in a month or so.
So, I think I'm going to hang on for a little while yet and see where the next few weeks take us. Memories, and all that.
As for other relationships, she had a stupid online EA with a much younger guy and she flew out to see him one weekend last year and to be honest, I'm not really convinced that it turned PA. She definitely didn't meet him again. But either way, it fizzled out quicker than it began - and that's all it was.
You think that might have something to do with it?
AC wrote: "You think that might have something to do with it?"
If your relationship is in such a state that you haven't had sex in two years, and your wife flew off to meet up with another man, then I would say that your marriage has some serious boundary issues in addition to other serious issues.
So, yes, it most certainly has impacted the relationship negatively.
As for the visit becoming physical, you might as well treat it as if it did regardless, because the real betrayal came in the form of the emotion that caused your wife to climb on an airplane to go meet her potential soul mate.
Speaking generally, the sexual part of a romance for a woman is simply an extension to the act of being in love. It doesn't carry the same importance to her that it does to you. In other words, she betrayed you. Period.
-NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
It's funny (hmm, kinda), because almost exactly 12 months ago, I was going through almost exactly what Choc was going through - W chasing a much younger OM (albeit online) who, yes, lived with his parents abroad. Heh.
Jeez, that still makes me chuckle.
But, like I said, it didn't last long, she was super embarrassed about it (friends and family noticed this immediately), and she's genuinely apologised for what happened. Not that I'm condoning it, but I can forgive. And she only flew out to meet this kid after she'd moved out of our house and we'd 'officially' separated.
During the separation, I went on a 'date', too, partly to show my W that I was moving on, and partly because I was just craving some female adult company. Guess what, I had to make my excuses and leave after, like, 30 minutes - I was so not ready to do that. I ended up back at home bawling my eyes out with the sheer emotion it stirred up. Safe to say, I've never been in contact with that girl again. Ha.
Man, that still makes me chuckle, too.
However, our separation still meant plenty of texts and emails from my W to me, plus she came back home every other evening and every weekend with stories of how living in this crappy room she was renting in someone's apartment wasn't really cracked up to much.
But, she has still never really been able to tell me (or anyone else) exactly why she felt she needed to go out and do all of this. I've got my theories - but you can never totally second-guess how someone is feeling, right. And I still don't think she's able to think of a solid reason in her own head, either.
Thing is, she made the move to come back to me after just 3 months of living separately. Seems life on her own wasn't everything she'd imagined it to be (Choc - this'll hit your W, too). The grass is definitely not always greener.
The only real issue we have now (and yes, I know it's a big one) is the sex thing - which was apparent for a while before the separation/EA.
So, to be honest, I think I can safely disregard the EA in the way I handle this. It was a slightly larger blip on the screen during a relatively tough period of both our lives (debt, another kiddo coming along, her dad dying, our house falling apart, me unexpectedly losing a huge business contact - all in the space of a year) - but the EA certainly wasn't the cause of the problem I have right now.
Thing is, we're closer now than we have been in a long, long time, and everything else really is good between us. It's almost like being back when we first moved in together. Except for the sex, that is.
But it all seems to be improving as our lives really are back on track now, and I'm backing off and not letting the anger & disappointment show - a la the SSM book.
Seriously, I am *the* textbook husband right now.
So MAYBE we're working through that stalemate where I'm discovering that she's one of those women who needs *everything* else in her life in order first before she can think about intimacy. Whereas I've been the one to want the intimacy first, and only then I'll be more motivated to get everything else in order.
Jeez, this is Catch 22, 23, 24, 25, 26 and bloody 27 all rolled into one.
It's driving me nuts.
Heh.
(Sorry for rambling/going around in circles - kinda helps just to write this lot down somewhere that other people can read it, y'know.)
And thanks for your input, too, shmagic - yep, one thing I'm sure of is that I need a way to communicate to her how I'm feeling. That's essential.
