Afterall..... This IS my life V

[NOPkins]

Hi, Heather.

Choc is the busy one, I am just monitoring.

So, a plan.

If you are game, let's try to open a channel to the captain first and see what happens.

Since he responded to an email, why not write another one, only this time, keep it very matter of fact and short. I will throw an idea out to get you started and you make it yours if it works for you.

"Hubby. As you are aware, I have tried to implement some changes in our relationship recently. It was with great hope for our future that I attempted to address my negative contributions to the relationship. I had hoped that we could establish a starting point for the two of us to build a new relationship together, a relationship that would address both of our needs in our marriage, both now, and in the future.

Obviously, my hope and efforts have fallen short of my goal for a new and better relationship with you. Our goals are obviously not the same.

With that apparent failure in mind, I wanted to simply come right out and ask you what your goals for our marriage are. Where do you see our relationship a year from now? If our relationship is to improve, how do we get there from here?

Heather"

Let me know what you think.
-NOPkins-

[heatherg]

I like the email, I just don't know if I can get a response from him with an email that directly asks him for a plan of sorts.
In the past when I've asked H what he wants from me, what he expects of me, he'll say he's taking it day by day. He doesn't give a straight answer to many of my questions. Nowadays he tells me I just need to stick around for at least a month. We were going on over two months and strong when I found out he lied to me, which I know still isn't very long, but it's longer than his sarcastic month.
As much as I'd like him to step up and take some responsibility for the direction of this R, I'm just concerned that if he doesn't answer, my options seem fewer somehow.
I guess my goal is to communicate, so based on H's personality, I should pick something that is going to get him going first and THEN, once an email pattern has been established, I can ask him about a plan. Does that make sense? I think for a first email to break the ice in this tension, I need to start with something less demanding. What do you think?

[NOPkins]

Hi, Heather.

I think that you are walking on eggshells, expecting not to break any.

As long as there is not conflict, your husband is in control. Since he is in control, why not query him for his plan. Surely, he has one, since he is in control.

I think the letter will highlight a hole in his own space.

So my answer is a question. Can you handle the fallout from a direct question of hubby or not?

If hubby had a track record of being a good leader in the marriage, then you probably wouldn't mind tagging along without serious reservation.

In real life, your hubby has led you in circles. I think you should know what his plans are before you blindly follow along. I think you should know if he has any intention of working on the relationship, and "give it a month" is not an acceptable answer.

You don't have to push to find out what you need to know. You don't have to threaten, just ask a simple question. No answer is still an answer.

You can't live in fear of the answer. It really will determine how you live the next 10 months of your life.

-NOPkins-

[fearless]

Heather,
I think by now you know that I think your H has some serious issues that he needs to address. That being said I still see many issues you still need to deal with whether you are married to your H, are a single woman or are back in a relationship with someone else. You prefer the idea of staying with your H because you love him and desire a family with him. IF you have made the decision to stay for the remaining year (and that is your decision to make), then my suggestion is that you focus on yourself for at least the next few months. You can still give your H some information to help him along if he chooses to engage but leave your expectations low with what he does with than information.

IMO. This is where the concept of detachment comes in. Detachment is NOT passivity and it is NOT ignoring your H or walling yourself off from him. Detachment means freeing yourself of expectations from your H. Complete detachment is NOT a permanent place for a healthy marriage. This is a short term place to give both of you some room to grow. Detachment is a gift to yourself so that you are free to work on your issues without expecting each personal success of yours to be directly and immediately recognized, appreciated and reacted positively to by your H. For example, your H baits you and waits for you to scream "it's over" and throw something. Instead you keep your cool, stand your ground and react as the Heather you want to be. You should feel great about that achievement even if your H ignores it or goes back to his same old stance. The PURPOSE should be your feeling of accomplishment and not whether your H sees it and not whether he then makes his own positive change. Again this is in the short term.

This is also where you work on staying on that middle path of not giving into his demands but also not being defiant, abusive and aggressive yourself. Just remember that you cannot control your H but you can control yourself. Also remember that you do not like him controlling you any more than he likes feeling controlled by you.

Also my opinion is that you (and maybe others) tend to confuse vulnerability with passivity. People have given you the advice to be vulnerable which I think is good but you may need specifics in how to be vulnerable. Giving into your H's demand for staying out of "his" bed, letting him have the chrome faucet handles, not kissing him, etc. without confronting him about how hurtful it is and without telling him how you feel are passive behaviors. Vulnerability is communicating to him that you feel hurt and worthless to him with his actions. Vulnerability is soooo much more scary than passivity which is why it is so hard. In passivity you can keep control (you are keeping control because you do not give him information. Like refusing his gestures without telling him why gives you control). In vulnerability you "give" away some control to someone else (now he knows why you refused his gestures and he has a choice of what to do with that information.) Obviously I do not want you to give your H control over your life or emotions but I think you do need to give him the information he needs to understand how his actions affect you. You will feel vulnerable if you "give" him the information of how hurt you feel with his actions. And in fact it is risky that he may "use" that information to hurt you even more which is probably why you resist being that vulnerable to him. But on the other hand he may actually NOT know how hurt you are by his behavior. (as amazing as that may seem. He might actually see you as someone that does not care.)

Another example for vulnerability is the porn issue. You have approached it only (as far as I can tell) from a position of control and boundaries (not a bad thing but it can limit communication). "I told you to stop looking at porn and you lied to me." Now he is on the defensive and it degrades to a power struggle and arguments of semantics. (Again this might be okay if you two were on a more level playing field but in your case he seems to have the upper hand so when you "play" this boundary card, he always "wins" and you end up feeling even lower than when you started.)

What if you approached the issue from a strictly emotional side and were honest about your feelings? "When I find out that you are looking at porn, I feel unimportant, insignificant, unattractive, etc. to you. I feel when you look at porn you are choosing unknown and "faceless" women over me. It hurts me." You have merely given him the truth about your feelings. (And also importantly not judged him because you have OWNED your feelings with the "I feel" statements rather than "You make me feel" statements.) NOW what does he do with that information???

I hope this comes across as a balanced "Plan of attack" of giving yourself some detachment by removing expectations from your H while giving him some information about how you feel. Yes, he may not do anything with that information but at least he has it and now it can be his choice how to proceed.

Heather, I think you are a great person and I admire how hard you have worked. Whatever you decide with your marriage, you will have support here. I would just like to see you have more balance in your life no matter what happens.

[LustForLife]

In real life, your hubby has led you in circles. I think you should know what his plans are before you blindly follow along. I think you should know if he has any intention of working on the relationship, and "give it a month" is not an acceptable answer.

Totally agree with this line of thinking.
I also liked the points about living in fear. I think that may be holding you back more than anything. You know you deserve better than this treatment. You don't like the way it makes you feel about yourself, him, or the M. The question is, is he going to keep stringing you along with his BS. What evidence do you have to the contrary?
Why are you so fearful of asking a simple question?
Maybe you need to explore that further and not worry so much about what his potential answer will be.
LFL

[heatherg]

I do have a problem with vulnerability, with dislcosing my hurt, my fears, my insecurities to my H. That doesn't mean I've never put myself out there, really far out there. I have. But usually only AFTER I've been hurt and I have a tendency to get really angry when I've been hurt. So perhaps my vulnerability and hurt has been masked with anger and control.
I think my issues started before H and have been exacerbated by the dynamics of our R. I've been insecure my whole life, there are aspects of my physical appearance that really bother me. I had a boyfriend that I ADORED when I was 16, but I could barely look him in the eye. He hooked up with some other girl over the summer he spent away, told my friends about it who apparently then felt 'obligated' to honor his trust over mine and they did not tell me until much later. He ended up breaking up with me, although I did feel that he really liked me but broke up with me because I would not open up to him. In hindsight, I was never sure if he really liked me or the 'mystery' of me.

Anyway, my troubles started long before H. So, I hear what you are saying. It's become a way of life for me. I have some ideas on how to get to the bottom of some of this, and it involves 'fixing' a couple things that bother me about my physical appearance. I don't want to discuss it too much here because I really don't want to debate it, anything I do will be for me, not for my H. I will probably schedule a consult later this year and will plan to use my X-mas bonus to do it.

So. Perhaps I should start with the general idea of the email Nops has given me and then work in some major disclosure. For the record however, I HAVE been vulnerable about the porn issue. I have told him that I feel hurt, not good enough, not pretty enough, now apparently not young enough. He said that's not true. Convincing huh? He's also told me in the past that it has nothing to do with me, I think everything is about me, I'm so self centered. He's also told me it's not nearly as big of a deal as I make it, all guys do it, that he likes to look at beautiful women-that I am A beautiful woman but not the ONLY beautiful woman, that he won't quit and most recently that it's off the table for discussion. He's also said that if I have any problems with my self esteem, it's that I have too much of it.

Honestly, sometimes I think he's given me all the answers that I need, but I just can't seem to accept his answers so I keep trying. Or I think the way I asked the questions was flawed. Or I let myself get too emotional or I said something I shouldn't have or I haven't done this or that or tried one thing or another. That's why I need a plan. Because I drive MYSELF in circles, partly because I can't accept the answers he's given me and partly because I start something and don't follow it through. ALL THE WAY through.

[Stigmata]

Hi Heather,

I know I said I would follow up with what I see as your two potential choices of heatherg mother of all boundary setting in my last post; one being massive vulnerability and the other being deadly seriousness in terms of conveying your breaking point to H. So I wanted to follow up. And thanks for the kind words btw.

I jump in here as I read all sorts of frustration in your earlier posts (before we got off-track a bit) as to how to set firm boundaries yet also asking how you can bee vulnerable and non-combative at the same time. Seeming contradictions and you're feeling flummoxed by it all.

I figured you could use a good Friday pep talk so I held off this post I had written the other night after I saw NOPs has you on a particular path and I see where he is going with it.

And that's why the following is going to hit on a lot of the same themes of you gaining the courage to stand up for yourself regardless of how H may or may not react to you doing so.

When we speak of respect and self-respect the thing I'd like you to keep in mind is that it does not have to come about through confrontation -- which I see you are fearful of in terms of H's responses. there's one sentence that says it all:

Command respect; don't demand respect.

This comes about only after you understand exactly where you draw the line in terms of OPs treatment of you in any life interaction. Once the OP see you put your self-respect ahead of anything else they will silently nod to you and back away from approaching your boundaries.

So here goes. Again, this long post is more to work in symbiosis with others specific solutions posts to give you the overall philosophy of where your head needs to be while trying to give you some needed encouragement at the same time. Call it the broader picture to go with the individual brush strokes...

First, please do not feel embarrassed by your slow progress. I think a major stumbling block I see in many posters on this site is a result of becoming frustrated they have not reached that idealistic end-all-be-all of a totally fulfilled r, be it a clothes-tearing daily SL or an H-W who will serve him/her breakfast in bed while rubbing feet.

Be it a goal involving slicking all the current hard drives free of dirty images downloaded last year (in the case of the males); or a goal of being not so high maintenance, bedroom cold and bitchy in the case of the females.

To you and those exasperated by feelings of being so far away from your target I would say stop, take your eyes off the ideal end-all-be-all, and look back to see the progress you've made since step A, square one of your R troubles. That's all that counts. Doesn't matter if it's inches or miles. Is it progressing? Is it not motionless?

Good.

It's speed to the goal will depend a lot on the effort and courage you are willing to summon to fix things. Yes, it helps when both parties have the same goal as it increases the speed to the end goal exponentially.

But 99% of the time it's only one person who is willing to do the work and hence we have all these scores of good, conscientious folks on this site. God Bless you all. Your SOs are very lucky to have such fighters.

Your H, heather, is apparently in the 1% not posting or reading MWD for solutions (though he did get a book on his own on codependency and that's good). Hence, you are doing all the work. Hence, you are going to feel cheated. Sorry, way it goes round these parts. Sometimes it works out as the 1%er gets his/her head out of his/her a$$ and doesn't want to lose the person he/she loves; sometimes it fails.

At least for the latter, when it fails, the MWD 99%ers trying many solutions know inside they gave it "all they got" while sometimes the 1%ers only realize too late they didn't do enough to save their Rs and families from lots of avoidable pain.

This is why I somewhat cringed at burgbud's passing comment intonating that perhaps the SSM forum or another forum embraces a "stay together at all (or nearly all) costs" ideaology. I get it, burg, really. Heather's been through the wringer thanks to H. But then again, I remind myself I am only seeing her side of this whole ongoing saga; a side that simply cannot be presented in a totally objective light.

Is H an unfeeling monster? Doubtful. Is he having a hard time expressing himself and his own insecurities? Probable. And are his tactics to control heather extremely puerile in its most adolescent expressions of sulking, hordeing heather's things (bed), and "tit for tat" one-upsmanship? Definitely.

So it is my feeling that all the posters on SSM or even other boards take their valuable time to see if maybe they have some kind of personal experience and insight that a struggling poster may find quite helpful. Not singling you out burg, I know you know all this and your posts are quite helpful from what I've read of them to boot.

But I believe the greater reason for pushing for positive resolution lies behind MWD's (and my own) belief that all Rs can be salvageable outside of those involving chronic chemical dependency and untreated or un-medicated major personality disorders, such as bipolar schizophrenia, BPD, and pathological narcissism to name some toughies.

I see the ultimate result of all the comments and this "give it all you got" approach to be the net effect of a "clear conscience." The poster who finally decides to throw in the towel can walk out of the R and vastly increase her/his odds of not being plagued by a lifetime of haunting ghosts a la "Did I make a mistake? Was it hopeless? Did I give my SO every chance?"

I don't know if you feel you gave it all you got, heather, but i can tell you, you are a fighter and you have earned an exit out of your M with a clear conscience from just seeing all the work you've put into this so far. The only stumbling block I see holding you back from giving your H every chance right now is your lack of confidence and strength to stand up to your H and earn his respect. No, not via pushing back at him. Not by attacking him or his tacticts. That is counterproductive and he will be forced to protect himself with all available defense shields. And he won't "hear" you.

No, forget his misguided stabs at forcing your allegiance to him via imprisoning your spirit and dictating to you what is acceptable and what is unacceptable heaterg displays of love, honor, and loyalty.

Like anchorman Howard Beale in the movie Network, you are going to have to find that point where your imprisoned spirit and self-worth finally stands up, pounds her fist into the table, and says, "I'm mad as hell and I'm not gonna take it anymore." Not out of anger towards H. Not out of threats. This is not an H issue. This is a conversation between you and you, so to speak. Assertive not externally aggressive. What Dr. Dobson might call tough love.

And OP usually gain respect for OP who care enough to show tough love towards them, just as your children have gained respect for you by obeying your rules and very very clear communications as to what you will and what you will not tolerate from them both inside and outside of your home.

Your kids don't hate you for your "rules" or tell you "that's it, this R is OVER, mommy," do they? So why would you recognize this from your H if you still love him ass well? Sure he's an adult but your complete lack of any real or perceived consequences have regressed him into an out of control child, frankly. And it might shock you to hear this but it's not all his fault. He takes what you allow him. So why should he stop? Why would your child stop sneaking cookies out of the cupboard if he/she knows you won't enforce that boundary?

So be confident, heather. Stand tall with your head up. Be proud of yourself. You're a good person. You love your H. You love your kids. You made a mistake and are remorseful. You're not a chronic cheater or liar from the impression you've given everyone here. You work a good job and raise two kids; you are pursuing outside-the-R activities that make you feel fulfilled in other ways (ie, karate).

If changing your physical appearance will make you feel better about yourself then do it. Just know these are all your own insecurities and what other people think of your looks or personality is none of your business and shouldn't impact your self-image. Who cares what's bouncing around in some other imperfect and probably just-as-F'd-up-as-the-rest-of-us person's head? Hmmm? Again, his/her business, not mine. Have a nice life suckas. Enjoy yours while you can. See you on the other side one day maybe.

Compared to a lot of OP out there, you're a smashing success already, my friend.

Now you gotta love yourself, kiddo. It's why I said to detach from your expectations and the future. Forget the unknown. Have to live in the right here, right now. Are you smiling at your life? No? Which parts are causing you grief? Can you do something about these parts? Of course you can. Why bother when it seems fruitless?

Because you owe it to yourself to be "happy" before you owe anything to anybody else, including your H and kids. Yes, you are there to protect and love your kids but they one day will be responsible for their own happiness and it will be none of your business whether or not they ultimately find happiness in their true life's path.

Just as H is responsible for finding his own happiness. Yes, it helps him along in this pursuit when you are loving, warm, and respectful to him but these things must never come about through the sacrificing of your own self-respect, healthy love for yourself, and your integrity. You have to live with yourself 24/7/365 for the rest of your life whether H is around or not... no one else. You have to listen to that constant harangue of internal dialogue running through your head all day every day (which is awful when you are in a bad place emotionally, as everyone here can attest)

Therefore, you gotta make your life the best you can since you are in it every single second that ticks away.

So I just wanted to give you another pep talk since you seem to be floundering a bit.

Heather. If you must learn one thing I've come to discover in my own life, learn this:

You owe it to yourself to accept no second class treatment from ANYONE you associate with in life over ANYTHING. And this goes for H. A ring and a POP does not give him carte blanche to crown himself dictator of your R. Accept no disrespect of your life, your feelings, and even the things you have paid for with your hard-earned $$ (like your bed for instance)

You have a voice in your R. It's supposed to be 50% of your R but we all sometimes become minority % stakeholder because we willingly give that power away to the other 50% stakeholder due to our own feelings of unworthiness and lack of self respect. You handed yours over willingly when you came back with shame to your H over your A. But now you gotta get back to 50%. I would encourage you to start this process by sitting down with a blank sheet of paper and writing down a variation of the following at the top in big bold letters:

"What Are the Dealbreakers That Will Cause Me to Leave My R?"

If you don't know, sit there until you find them... if it takes all freakin day.

Infidelity. Pathological Lying. Physical abuse to self or children. Drug dependency. Chronic Verbal Abuse to self or children.

And so on. What are they for you? Some sticking points I see right now are emotional abuse via regulating you to sleep on a couch. Lack of affection or real signs of love (although I see some attempts by H in his recent gestures, even if you feel they weren't). And either viewing pornography that bothers you or lying about it or both.

Or maybe it's the larger issue that H will never forgive you for your A in the event he just doesn't have it in him to do so after you have thrown yourself at his mercy.

That's a toughy. You know him best. You won't be happy if this will be over your head for your entire life. Sucks to consider but you need to weigh the impact long term in terms of your happiness with H.

Some Ms, some Fs can get past infidelity, some can't. I believe it was Karen who said her parents were able to get past an A and never re-lived the incident again. So

it's possible. Yes, hard, but possible.

What are your dealbreakers?

Find these out in black and white and then you have your line in the sand in terms of your major no going back, do not pass Go, do not collect $200 boundaries that simply cannot cannot be rescinded or smoothed over and redrawn after H crosses them. kwim?

You can do it. You're going slow because you seem to be afraid of the consequences of standing up for yourself and your rights as a wife, lover, mother, and desireable and valuable woman.

Understandable.

Heck you were only 17 when your life fused with H so you don't have a memory of a totally unique idenity, as many of the rest of us have from, say in my own case, from the age of 18 living alone and with OP in $shithole seedy apts. to living alone and with various OP in shangri-las while exploring a variety of multi-faceted Rs with OP, both romantic and platonic. And look at me. I'm far from a freaking actualized human being. Still messed up. Still trying to figure my own $hit out. Still trying to figure out just who or what I am and what I will and will not tolerate in terms of letting OP affect the evolution of my own path.

So, see? You're not alone. So don't go into your shell. Don't focus on how slow progress is. Get your head to focus on what you want out of life as an individual woman with one life to live and love and friendship to give.

"Place your oxygen mask securely around your own nose and mouth first before attempting to assist other passengers with their own masks..."



-Stigmata-

[Burgbud]

Hey Heather.

I strongly suggest you check into a book Mojo mentioned on her thread: The Verbally Abusive Man by Patricia Evans. A great deal of the book is devoted to coming up with a plan for a couple to move past verbal abuse.

She defines "verbal abuse" very broadly. In fact, to say that someone is a verbally abusive man is itself verbal abuse by her standard, so don't be too put off by the title. At the very least, go thru the few pages of the book that are available at Amazon and see what you think:

The Verbally Abusive Man on Amazon