Coming out of our "entitlement" ruts?

[MrsNOP]

Zuzu, at this stage daughters see moms as competition. It has nothing to do with whether or not you are a fun parent.

When I was a little girl, I would pretty much cut my mother's emotional throat to get and keep dad's attention. I skipped home from kindergarten for lunch one day and decided that this princess needed to change into another dress before I went back. I had convinced myself that my fellow classmates didn't need to see me in the *same* dress I had left in. I think I was processing this similar to thinking I was wearing the same dress 2 days in a row.

Anywho, mom said no. I promptly told her that I would tell my daddy on her when he got home. It just so happened that my aunt was there as I performed my "treat mom like poop" routine. She grabbed me up, started spanking my bottom and said "tell daddy this!" My dad didn't deal with the very typical childish attempts to be his number one and mom and I had issues for a long time.

Fast forward a couple of decades and I found that my own young daughter was trying to freeze me out in just the same way. I, like you, just boohooed over being rejected by my baby. In this case NOP used his power of being the popular parent to explain to our daughter why her behavior was unacceptable. No freezing out mommy. As he posted, she had a very close relationship with her dad, but *he* made sure she was corrected whenever the jealousy monster reared a head. Some of what he pointed out to her was that I loved her emmensely and took care of her all those times when daddy wasn't around. And that her behavior was hurtful to someone who loved her very much.

Daughters adore their dads. My daughter said for years, "When I grow up I'm going to marry daddy." When she was younger I wouldn't try to correct it, I would just say, "You really love your daddy, don't you?" When she got a little older, I explained to her that she could live with us forever, but the law didn't allow little girls to marry their daddy. So, her goal became, "When I grow up and get married, we're going to live here with daddy." After a period of time, "When I get married, I'm going to live next door to daddy."

So, maybe with this understanding that it is normal, daddy can step up and let little daughter know that it HE finds it unacceptable for her to be unkind to mommy. It made the difference for us, my daughter and I continued to have a close relationship without the baggage that I had had with my mother.

MrsNOP -

[LustForLife]

Ditto what Mrs Nop said.
It is perfectly normal for your D at that age to attach to daddy. And I agree, it is helpful for HIM to correct your D when she is being hurtful to you. They need to learn empathy and this is a great place to teach it. Try not to get angry at her, that doesn't help at all. But I would try and get your H on board 100% about redirecting your D when she is disrespectful to you. My H and I went through this for a while and things are much better now with my D, (she is almost 6).
LFL

[RedHeadWife]

Zu, thinking more about this whole sitch w/ your D. It kind of applies to all of us as far as the "fun parent" thing goes. I have been trying to figure out how to be more "fun" as well after my S7 said those things about Aunt Paula. Well, what I've still come to is that we can be fun w/ our kids, yes, but in the big picture, we are their PARENT. That is where I think others are meaning that your H needs to step up and PARENT your D instead of trying to be the "fun one" or her "best bud." He needs to make sure she knows that when she acts like that, she is disrespecting you, her mom, and your H's partner. He needs to stand up for you, his Wife. Maybe you can sit him down & calmly discuss this w/ him. It sounds as if he wasn't quite "getting it" the other night.

Anyway, bottom line, it sounds like this is normal. We need to just make sure we are being the best parents we can be and teaching our children the life lessons they need, not just all fun & games.

[**zuzu**]

Hey everyone,

Wow, thanks SO much for the responses. I really appreciate it. Please forgive me; I don't have much time. I need to be going to bed. It was a family evening and I tried to GAL a bit and do some scrapbooking tonight. Mostly organized and tried to get inspired, but it feels good to do something creative and pretty.

I did send H a bit of the posts from above re: the preferred parent syndrome. Such a busy night, I don't even think he checked his mail. Probably will see it tomorrow. It was a much better evening. He was trying, I was trying. I did send him a "Top 10 Reasons Why I Love Joey" to his work email today. That probably helped. I had suggested it weeks ago, that we both do it, but it became a thorn in my side because days went past and I had done my list within a few days and he still had not made his. A week later, he checked his MySpace before work and I got ticked off b/c it seemed he had spare moments for what he wanted, but not me/us. That's what caused me to blow up some over the MySpace crap. ANYHOW, didn't change a word, just sent it today in an email. Here's what it said:
Top 10 Reasons I Love Joey

10 You work hard to make a nice life for me and our kids. You get up every morning and go to work for us. You rarely complain out loud, though I know you must think about it a lot.
9 You tell me you love me often, almost daily, which makes me feel like I’m still special!
8 You are funny and I like it when we laugh together.
7 You love to learn, you love to create and appreciate art, and you have a love of nature.
6 You are efficient, organized, full of common sense, and good at getting things done, which makes you a great leader for our family.
5 You are kind and considerate of others.
4 You are an excellent daddy, like I always knew you would be.
3 You are forgiving of my many faults.
2 You love to make me feel good sexually and go out of your way to do so.
1 You’re the one I want to spend forever with.

I also made him a breakfast sandwich on the way out the door and packed his lunch for him. He was sweet all day today. Fixed our garage door opener and took our car to get flat fixed and long overdue oil change taken care of. Yahoo!

I am going to seriously focus on PMA and GAL. It MAY mean I'm around less. I don't feel I can benefit too much from being on here as much as I am. I have to focus on D and S, unload the dishwasher, stuff like that. lol If I get extra time, I should be documenting these sweet little babies' lives as they slip by in front of me.

Thank you for the advice. I'm sure I'll journal some more next time it's up or down again!

MMMWAH!

[**zuzu**]

Hey everyone!

Hope you are all doing ok. At the risk of a double post ( I thought I clicked Submit...), here is a response I got from my Top 10 list I sent to H the other day. He sent it right around 5:00 when he got off work. Not a lot of fanfare at all when he got home and I saw it. I kissed him and hugged him, he didn't really have anything to say. I know he was just giving me one back, but I still liked it. Later that night, out of the blue, he said, "I meant what I said on your list." I playfully said, "You weren't just blowing smoke up my ass?" He said, "No, it's hard for me to say things like that." I said, "why?" in a soft, listening voice. He said, "I don't know." Clearly not wanting to talk further. I told him how much it meant to me.
I'm trying to scrapbook tonight to stay focused on the positive and do something I enjoy. Having a beer, too. Take care, everyone!


Top 10 Reasons I Love Robin

10. You are a good mother, teacher and homemaker to Sam and Mari.
9. You tolerate me, my collection and my hobby.
8. You and I have the same political, ecological and ethical values. I couldn’t be with someone who didn’t.
7. You are a committed and trustworthy wife/person.
6. You are good at doing many things I am not...you compliment me.
5. You are attracted to me and love me back.
4. You are smokin’ hot and you are very good at the bedroom stuff!!
3. You are intelligent and use common sense.
2. You REALLY are a good mommy to our kids! (it’s worth saying twice...so is #4!)
And, the Top 10 Reason I love Robin...
1. You are nice to me and you take care of me

(#1 is something he has always said.)

[**zuzu**]

Hello!

Hope you are having a nice weekend. Things are up again/down again on the roller coaster around here. I have been really working on the PMA. After the nice reciprocation of the list on (Wed). Thursday night, I reminded Joey that it was date night (we'd each had our own "night" Tue and Wed, which meant a bit of personal time.) He said he'd rather it be on Fridays and sounded a bit grumpy, but I said that's fine. Sent him a cheerful email saying, "Let's order a pizza...looking forward to you coming home." He loves getting pizza and we used to do this all the time and watch Survivor pre-kids. Night seemed to go fine. I have all my scrapbooking materials spread out in the dining room and kind of wanted to work on it. Since it wasn't date night (felt like I was treading on thin ice here), I asked if he would mind if I worked on it. We were both really tired and he said he didn't mind. He went to bed; I worked a bit and did the same.

Friday night comes. I said that morning, "Know what tonight is?" hugging him goodbye. He said, "[censored]-a-lot Friday?" Looking back now, I should have played along more, but I just kind of said, "Date Night." So fine, day goes on. I notice S1 has white on his tongue. Must be thrush. We call doc, script is supposedly called in. He goes by after work to pick it up and they don't have it. When he gets home, he is seriously pissed and calls doc office and leaves message, awaiting a return call. I had knocked myself out trying to pick up and vacuum the house and looked horrible and was sweating my butt off. I HAD to take a shower before going out to eat/doing Date Night. I hopped in shower just before he got home. When I got out, I was walking around naked and bent over at one point, not his direction though. He said, "You should turn around." The kids were RIGHT THERE, underfoot, cranky, not dressed. I thought we were HURRYING to get out to a restaurant, before it got any later. I was NOT in the mood for advances. I KNEW it would be an issue, so I kind of went silent for a moment, actually trying to think of how to respond. I think I didn't say anything. I stepped on something a moment later, and wanted to look at my foot in the light of the bathroom and somehow he insinuated he wanted to come in with me and shut the door and i got kind of pissy in my response to him because I was trying to get ready, didn't want to have sex, (I'm just being honest) and was thinking about if my foot had glass in it at the time. He seemed stuck on his own thing. So, he's laying there, drinking beers, not lifting a finger to get kids ready. I'm telling him I'm about ready and I look over at him and he is "glowering" if thta's the right word. He looks STEAMED. I honestly did not know what was going on. In retrospect, I can see that I was not very considerate of him, but it seemed SO impractical, right at that very moment. Anyhow, I walked up to him and laid down next to him and said, "What's wrong?" in a sympathetic voice. I knew he was waiting on a call from the pharmacist after trying to find out from the doc what happened to the script. He was staring at the ceiling and said, "I'm angry about a lot of things." I rubbed his arm, said, "Honey, it's ok. Come in the bathroom for a minute." I thought he was stressed about not having the medicine for Sam. He said it really pissed him off. I didn't know it was about me. He said, in a disgusted voice, "No thanks, I don't want a sympathy [censored]!" I felt like I could not win. So, ok, I pull back. Nothing more I could do, I felt. Didn't know what else to do. I suggested the "quickie in the bathroom" because the kids were occupied, unlike earlier.

I think before he left the house, he told me, "I don't know why, but I've got a lot of stuff from the past going on in my head right now." I said I was sorry he felt bad, I think I asked if there was anything he could do. He said no, and kept trying to get away from me.

So, anyhow, all pissed off, we pile in the car to go eat. He is mad as we are driving there, yells at daughter, etc. I try to be the ray of sunshine. When we get there, we are sitting in the car for a minute, kids both asleep. We talk very briefly about it. I said something subtle and supportive, (trying at least) like I feel bad that he's hurting. Let's just try to have a nice evening, etc. He said, "I feel like sloppy seconds, Robin. Not to be crude, but that's just how I feel." I was surprised by his comment, and said in a soft voice, "You know that's not true, you know I'm your girl." He said, not looking at me, "I wish you always had been."

So dinner was REAL FUN! We talked to the kids, but not each other.

I still tried to keep PMA, thinking it would eventually go away. He comes home, says he's very tired, but finishes a project with D. I wait until they are done and help get her ready for bed. He reads to her. I wait in our BR, and wait. He finally comes in, says he fell asleep in there and just wants to go to sleep. We watch a little tv, but when I make a movement towards him, he is cold and not reciprocal. Finally, he says I don't feel like it. I say that I wish I had known that earlier in the evening and he just scoffs. I say, no really, I just wish I had known earlier, because I'm disappointed. You sound like you knew all night and I would have been in the other room doing my own thing.

So that's what I do. I think I somehow make one more move towards him, he says nope. I come into LR intending to scrapbook, but fall asleep on the couch.

This morning, he is still in a funk, very crabby. EVENTUALLY, we talk, he is still VERY pissy, but we kind of work it out. I will try and elaborate on this last part later tonight. He is out with D and should be returning soon. I don't want to be typing when he walks in. Thanks for reading! I feel like a nutcase half the time. I appreciate all the support you guys have given me. OH! And my next appt with my doc is in 2 months, so I will try and find out then what I should be on. I have no insurance, we pay out of pocket and it is expensive to pay for an office visit, so I will likely wait until then. Also, H should be getting a vasectomy soon, so I look forward to my body being hormone-free, even though I have never been one to feel like I experienced mood swings due to hormones, maybe that *is* what's going on somewhat.

Thanks so much for reading.

[NOPkins]

Hi, zuzu.

I think you should have done him in the bathroom the first time, even if it was not in your plan.

Back to the being stuck part.

quote:"He said, "I feel like sloppy seconds, Robin. Not to be crude, but that's just how I feel." I was surprised by his comment, and said in a soft voice, "You know that's not true, you know I'm your girl." He said, not looking at me, "I wish you always had been." "

When you dumped him, and he eventually won you back, did the two of you discuss events that occurred while you were broken up, BEFORE you got married?

If so, did he tell you BEFORE you were married how hurt he was at the breakup and the events afterward?

-NOPkins-

[oldtimer]

Zuzu,

Wow, very tough night. I agree with NOP on the bathroom thing.

This is my take on it from his perspective…

REJECTION 1: "Friday night comes. I said that morning, "Know what tonight is?" hugging him goodbye. He said, "[censored]-a-lot Friday?" Looking back now, I should have played along more, but I just kind of said, "Date Night.""

How REJECTION 1 sounds: "Quit being a d*ck and put it away."

Better: "Oh you hot stud, I love you so much!" or "Not quite, it isn't just f*ck-a-lot Friday, it is f*ck & s*ck-a-lot Friday!"

REJECTION 2: When I got out, I was walking around naked and bent over at one point, not his direction though. He said, "You should turn around." The kids were RIGHT THERE, underfoot, cranky, not dressed. I thought we were HURRYING to get out to a restaurant, before it got any later. I was NOT in the mood for advances. I KNEW it would be an issue, so I kind of went silent for a moment, actually trying to think of how to respond. I think I didn't say anything.

How REJECTION 2 sounds: "Quit being a gross pervert in front of the kids. I am soooo not interested I can't even say anything"

Better: Wink, turn around, bend over again to put on your other sock (or whatever) and shake your butt at him while saying to the kids, "come on, get a move on, Daddy and I have plans."

REJECTION 3: I stepped on something a moment later, and wanted to look at my foot in the light of the bathroom and somehow he insinuated he wanted to come in with me and shut the door and i got kind of pissy in my response to him because I was trying to get ready, didn't want to have sex, (I'm just being honest) and was thinking about if my foot had glass in it at the time.

How REJECTION 3 sounds: "Quit being a gross pervert, I don't care whether the kids are here or not. I am soooo not interested I can't even say anything. I can't believe how selfish you are, do you think with your d*ck all the time?"

Better: "Hey sweetheart. I gotta check my foot for glass. Wanna help me? Maybe we can play a little doctor."

Wow. And all this on "Date Night."

"He looks STEAMED."

Hardly surprising, he must have been very hurt.

"In retrospect, I can see that I was not very considerate of him, but it seemed SO impractical, right at that very moment."

The problem here is the "but." You were inconsiderate of him. The "but" takes away you acknowledging that.

"I rubbed his arm, said, "Honey, it's ok. Come in the bathroom for a minute." I thought he was stressed about not having the medicine for Sam. He said it really pissed him off. I didn't know it was about me. He said, in a disgusted voice, "No thanks, I don't want a sympathy [censored]!" "

REJECTION 4: I felt like I could not win. So, ok, I pull back. Nothing more I could do, I felt. Didn't know what else to do. I suggested the "quickie in the bathroom" because the kids were occupied, unlike earlier.

How REJECTION 4 sounds: "Good, I'm glad you don't want a pity f*ck, I was just offering because it was convenient anyway and so you wouldn't be pissy all night."

Better: "OMG sweetheart! I am so sorry you feel that way. I just realized what a dolt I'm being. I was so focused on us having a hot night later I ruined its start. I am soooo sorry, I didn't mean to be rejecting you, I meant to be getting to the point where you could pounce on me sooner."

"He said, "I feel like sloppy seconds, Robin. Not to be crude, but that's just how I feel." I was surprised by his comment, and said in a soft voice, "You know that's not true, you know I'm your girl." He said, not looking at me, "I wish you always had been." "

This sounds to me a bit like him striking out at you, not on purpose, but because he is projecting his pain onto you, rather than acknowledging the repeated pain of four rejections all on date night. That, and, it is possible to see from his perspective why he might feel like he only gets leftovers once you have taken care of all the things on your agenda. NOP also asked some great questions about this comment.

"So dinner was REAL FUN! We talked to the kids, but not each other."

Um, this is DATE NIGHT, right? Where is the DATE?

"We watch a little tv, but when I make a movement towards him, he is cold and not reciprocal. Finally, he says I don't feel like it. "

He is hurting because of the repeated rejection and lost interest in sex.

"I say that I wish I had known that earlier in the evening and he just scoffs. I say, no really, I just wish I had known earlier, because I'm disappointed."

Ouch again! This makes it about you and how he is letting you down. What about him? What about his hopes for date night? What about his daydreaming of having a W who is romantically and sexually all about him just for one night this week? Ouch ouch ouch.

"I think I somehow make one more move towards him, he says nope."

Just makes him feel how much he is hurting….

Anyway, you are obviously a caring person who recognizes a great deal of this. I just wanted to highlight a few things to perhaps bring out the pattern a bit more starkly.

[NOPkins]

Great post, OT.

Quote:"That, and, it is possible to see from his perspective why he might feel like he only gets leftovers once you have taken care of all the things on your agenda."

I have been wanting to talk to zuzu's husband to ask him some very direct questions about the "breakup" which he seems to be stuck on. It is almost impossible (in my limited experience) to get at the core reason without talking to the affected spouse, BUT, I sure want to hear zuzu's take on your statement above. You may have just put one over the fence.

zuzu?

[RedHeadWife]

Zu, we've kind of become friends here & over email. OT's post was probably very hard to read, but also brutally honest.

Sweetie, I really see a lot of my "old" M going on in yours. Not the past stuff that H seems to still have issues with, but just that one of you needs to start making more of an effort. I understand that you FEEL like you are, but I think if you want to get to a better place in your M, you are going to have to swallow some selfish stuff and just work on taking care of your H a little more.

I got the BIG D dropped on me and I tell you what, I kicked into high gear as far as taking care of my M and especially ALL of my H's needs. I truly just don't see you doing this. Sometimes it takes one person putting in all the effort for awhile to get things running really smoothly. Then hopefully they will begin to reciprocate. I know that I actually got a lot of happiness just out of taking care of H and realizing what our R was missing.

I think you need to step back a little bit and see what more you can be doing to just take care of your H for a little while whether this seems to be the "fair" thing to do or not.