Afterall..... This IS my life V

[heatherg]

Alright, I know it's been days, but I'm just going to pick up where I left off. I needed time to think and let the latest events calm down.

Stig!!! It was such a great surprise to find your posts on my thread.

So let me get this straight, I'm a little slow sometimes.

Your H has been testing your commitment to him and your R via marital bed spooning depreivation and actual physical distancing.


Except for the word 'spooning', yes, that's correct. He's got other little rituals that he's maintained as well.

IMO there is no end timeline for him.

I don't think there is necessarily an end timeline for him either....but I do think he will change his ways. I've seen some pretty big improvements in his attitude and his treatment of me over the last few months. So, while I don't think he's planning out when he's going to give up the charade, I do feel like he's relaxing his grip. With that being said, I still don't feel particularly loved. That is one of my fears....that he will eventually give all of this up and we'll have the opportunity to try...but because he will never address the issues head on and accept responsibility for his wrongdoings...I'm afraid I won't be able to accept the changes because I will still want him to say the words, to face up to his weaknesses and to acknowledge that his behavior was hurtful and often downright disrespectful. Without that acknowledgement, I don't know if we have a chance.

he needs either an IC or a male friend or some other kind of outside influence (parents?) to sit him down and ask him how this setup he's orchestrating is moving you both down the path of a happy relationship and nuclear family.

I hear what you're saying. But, as you mentioned on another thread somewhere, we are more likely to be straight in a forum such as this because people are much less inclined to risk damaging a RL relationship. An IC might be the best person, however, my H will never allow himself to respect someone like that enough to actually be stung by their words. He does not have respect for too many people and the people he does respect will not risk damaging their R with him. So I think that although it would be valuable to hear words of wisdom from a third party, it will likely never happen. H did go to MC a few times, but he wouldn't continue. He knows a MC will not let him keep the heat on me 100% of the time, and H will not be confronted. He just won't.

Ok, I accidentally submitted that post long before I meant to, so I'll just start a new one.

[heatherg]

As for a pep talk, I think you have come a long long way in understanding that you need to guard your own emotional energy, keep it for yourself, and let H burn his own emotional fuel in his own chaotic way without you internalizing his BS, which is what it is, BS. All sturm und drang, fluster and wind.

I have worked really hard at controlling my reactivity. I still struggle with it, but I've learned a great deal about letting him stay in the pit by himself.....I feel a big difference in my integrity when I do this.

It is such a difficult line to walk...on so many levels, I believe that what H is doing is BS. But, on the other hand, if I am ever to truly reconcile with H, I have to do my best to see where he's coming from. It is hard to validate someone whom you think is full of BS, kwim?

Detach from the outcome. Detach from listening to your reactionary "blurting out" inner dialogue every time H pushes your buttons.

I can never hear this type of advice too often....hearing it stated from different perspectives and in different ways helps it all to sink in. Detach from the outcome....that is exactly what I need to do. I've been focused on saving the marriage, but I think it's time to let go of hope for any one specific outcome and just be me.

There are two ways I see you failing most dramatically:

1. You get angry, your brain editor goes down, and you blurt out a variation of, "That's it. It's over. I'm done. This time it's for good. Perhaps some personal low blows are hurled in his direction via hurtful words where you know his emotional weak spots are. It's now a pretty entrenched pattern with years involved.

2. You actually take off for any period of time and H circles the kids like wagons around him and shuts down into complete and total shut down. Ie, the silent treatment, sneers, thumbing his nose at your opinion of his porn, ignoring you, and devolving into full martyr mode. Getting him back into even neutral mode can sometimes take weeks.

Either way, both responses are total failures of his BS tests since you lose hold of yourself and your emotional energy and you fall into his pit with him.

You're exactly right, particularly with number one. With number two, I never really take off, just one time, and I told him where I was going and that I would be back in the morning. But other than that, I've never really taken off.

But you're right on with letting my reactionary self declare 'it's over' without thinking things through. That's why I've got to give this until early next year without uttering another word about leaving. If I can do what I said I would do, hopefully it will build the trust a little.

I can't forget H's email to you. He was being very vulnerable and scared in his own right. And definitely love there.

Really? I read it in hindsight and see only blame and a desire for me to mother his children along side him. What do you see that equates to love, love for me?

It seems to me he really has no other concrete examples in his life of his proudest accomplishments from what you've previously posted. At least nothing really beyond your M and his pride in overcoming both or your F'd up FOOs and actually reaching the outward appearance, anyway, of the all-American family pursuing its own version of its all-American dream.

This seems awfully important to him IMO. Important enough that if he should lose it he has nothing positive left to show for his life

Agreed.

Seems to me this will come in the form of one big MFing Heather boundary. Delivered either via major vulnerability from you or unblinking calm gravitas. I'll try to address this perhaps in another post.

I would appreciate any ideas you have. I'm struggling right now because I'm here physically, but that is all. I was so hurt by his position on the porn and the fact that he lied to me about it and my pride was damaged pretty bad with this whole bed incident. As indicated by the email I posted from him the very next day, all was well again in his world after I gave him the bed back. It was like he never said a word about us being over. My sister pointed out to me that he does the same thing he faults me for-when I push his boundaries he threatens 'it's over, we're done'. He doesn't threaten to physically leave, but he threatens to emotionally abandon me. He has threatened on four occasions that I can think of right off the top of my head and I know I've heard the words out of his mouth more than that. I hadn't thought about it until she pointed it out and she's absolutely right. I think it's a protective human reaction...when someone purposely crosses your boundaries, it's normal to react to that and want to get away from them. He's really demonstrated no more commitment than I, which is the main reason my pride is hurt so badly about giving back the bed. If the bed is about commitment, then he should be sleeping elsewhere too. But he seems to feel so frickin entitled to that bed, as though he's been the glue holding this M together.

So I haven't been responsive at all to him. And slowly he's tapered off on trying and he's retreated back to his shell and this is how we'll live for the next god awful year. The night after I gave him his bed back, he bought bubble bath for me so I could take a bath in our new master bathroom....it was finished earlier that day and he said something about wanting me to take the first bath in our new tub. Like I want to step foot in that bathroom after he made it clear that I am not allowed in the bed. I completely ignored the gesture as I do not plan to take a bath in that tub anytime soon. At night, he comes over to where I am sleeping to tousle my hair. I pull away. Friday night he came out and slept on the couch next to me. Again, I ignored the gesture, although I thought it would be great if he continued to do that....if he acknowledged that he didn't belong in the bed either, I think we could make it past this last bed incident. But, it didn't last. He still tousled my hair last night and I still pulled away, but he will stop with that soon. And then we'll just be two people living in the same house. We are speaking amicably, we went out of town this past weekend for a graduation party for someone on his side of the family. That was fine.
Part of me feels guilty for not returning his gestures. But did I not say that those niceties aren't going to be enough anymore? You can't tell your wife to get out of the marital bed or the M is over and then buy her fcking bubble bath and tousle her hair goodnight to make up for it. This situation has to be ADDRESSED, not sidestepped like we always do.
But again, I feel like I've said my piece. I feel like my responsibility right now is to be present like I said I would. I'm contemplating not saying another R oriented thing for the rest of the time, not one thing. I know when the time is up, he'll use it against me that I wasn't 'trying' during this time. But I just don't see where we can move foward until the porn thing and the lies are addressed and he is the only one that can do that. All I can do is wait. He blamed me for his lie, he said I asked him at a bad time in front of the kids and he pretty much had to lie or I would have flipped out in front of them. I can't recall the circumstances of when I asked him, but I know he was on the couch and I was on the floor kneeling next to him, the kids were absolutely NOT around, they must have been down for a nap or something, I can't recall. I couldn't believe it that he was justifying his lie and I think he truly believes all his own crap. That is not the first time he's lied to me, it's the third that I am aware of. He has not owned up to any of them.

I think that he completely believes what he tells you regarding commitment and the like. That does not mean his POV is true, but I think he truly believes what he sees.

I really do too.

How about having it hauled away one day while H is at work and buying two twin beds and putting them in the room.

I believe that it would be escalation on my behalf. This problem is not mine to solve....every time I try to control the outcome of the bed, I come out worse than when I started. This is H's issue and it seems there is nothing I can do about it except accept it or leave.

Do your best to not return hurt for hurt.

Thanks for this.

Your game of lurking or keylogging, just so you can make Heather dance and sneer and foil her attempts to regain your trust, love and save her family, is deplorable and pathetic.

It gave me chills to read this. It never occurred to me he would read my posts here.

escalation will only make things worse.

I agree. If there's anything I've learned, it's this.

When you let yourself be vulnerable and expressed your hurt, you did not attack, so his defenses were not up, and the extreme hurt you expressed was able to register on him. You detachment, strong boundary statement may have told him you have reach the end of the line. I think this is what he has been looking for all along, even though that may be sick, controlling, unhealthy, whatever. He finally saw you give up the fight. I think he “got it” and felt guilty. Apology is NOT something you will get from a narcissist, so instead he offered that comment on you looking “hot.”

Too bad it's not all about him. Because I'm simply not willing to accept any gestures from him until the real issues are addressed. I'm desperate for his love, but desperate enough to accept empty gestures only to end up back to square one yet AGAIN because I've allowed things to move forward without addressing the problems, many of which are his.

And again, that’s just my GD POV.

Couldn't figure out why you said that at first, lol.

Your H has some deep pychological issues that HE needs to decide he wants to work on and there is no way for you to "make" him do that work.

I know. I know what I need from him and I keep wanting to control him into giving me what I need because I can't bear for the M to be over. It's time to be a big girl and let him arrive at his own conclusions.

Regardless of what you decide and what direction you go next, please try to stay the middle ground. Do not give in but do not attack. MUCH easier said than done but it is the RIGHT way to handle him and the right way for you to keep your dignity and self respect.

AMEN!! Thanks Fearless.

[SouthernGirl]

I've been thinking the same thing for some time now, Heather ... that he may be reading your posts here. Perhaps.

Heather, your sitch is one where I vaccilate between "I would run like hell" and ... "I dunno".

I do know something about pride, and stubborn males.

Some guys will not, will NOT, be "forced" into anything. You can push till kingdom come and they'll only push back harder. The only way you can lead them is through kindness, and love. They have to want to do what you want.

If your h is of that sort, setting deadlines, conditions, "I'll only do x if he does y" will not work. Forgetaboutitrightnow. Don't care how justified your objections, and grievances, it just. won't. work. Will never work. He'll wait you out, and then some.

Be open, vulnerable. Reward nice behaviour with kindness. To not reject gentle gestures. Act "bunny", to use Mojo's metaphor. Act like you would towards someone you love, and who you expect to make you happy. When you go to your couch bed, say "goodnight" with just a tiny touch of the sadness you feel. Smile
nostalgically. Know what I mean? He has to feel safe to stop pushing, and until he does, he won't.

[fearless]

The night after I gave him his bed back, he bought bubble bath for me so I could take a bath in our new master bathroom....it was finished earlier that day and he said something about wanting me to take the first bath in our new tub. Like I want to step foot in that bathroom after he made it clear that I am not allowed in the bed. I completely ignored the gesture as I do not plan to take a bath in that tub anytime soon. At night, he comes over to where I am sleeping to tousle my hair. I pull away. Friday night he came out and slept on the couch next to me. Again, I ignored the gesture, although I thought it would be great if he continued to do that....if he acknowledged that he didn't belong in the bed either, I think we could make it past this last bed incident. But, it didn't last. He still tousled my hair last night and I still pulled away, but he will stop with that soon. And then we'll just be two people living in the same house. We are speaking amicably, we went out of town this past weekend for a graduation party for someone on his side of the family. That was fine.


Part of me feels guilty for not returning his gestures.


Heather,

You don't have to feel guilty for not wanting to return his gestures BECAUSE they don't feel "right" to you. I wonder if you feel like they are "rewards" for backing down and letting him get his way. A true loving gesture would be to acknowledge you.

BUT your H may or may not be feeling that. That's why it would help YOU and HIM to communicate exactly how you feel. Just try to do it in a way that focuses on the immediate issues and doesn't back him into a corner.

H,

I have pushed away your attempts to be nice - "wanting me to take the first bath, tousling my hair, sleeping beside me" - not because I don't love you or don't appreciate those attempts. It's just that I feel hurt and humiliated by your previous actions. It makes it hard to feel these attempts at closeness are genuine even though they might be.

heather

Just my off the cuff thought. Keep it focused on how YOU FEEL and not on his actions or his true feelings.

Good Luck

[heatherg]

SouthernGirl, I hear exactly what you are saying. I think you're 100% correct that my H will likely outwait me every time. Cobra also has a pretty good angle on my H.

I feel like your suggestions were perfect for where I was three weeks ago with H. Now though, there has been some discoveries made and a lie told. Any acceptance of his kind gestures at this point, I see as acceptance of his poor behavior as well....as a sign that all is well when all is NOT well. I've tried to regauge myself back to neutral, pleasant even. Still getting there. But I can't keep allowing us to sweep our problems under the rug or I will be 50 and still going over the same 'should I stay or should I go' routine. Ya know?

I think your advice is great if my focus was still H and 'getting' him to open up and be in a R with me. Bur right now I really need some help in being true to ME. Acting congruent with how I feel. Making my boundaries clearer. It's time for both of us to GROW UP.

Am I making sense? I really want to follow Stig's advice and detach from the outcome. Nops said the same thing-it's perhaps time to table thoughts of reconcilation. I need to figure out what I want from this R and what I am willing tolerate and what I'm not. Then I should probably communicate that somehow in a non-challenging, as vulnerable as I can be way. The rest is up to him.

[Cobra]

Heather,

I’m pretty much done with the board, but I wanted to make a suggestion for you… After all you’ve been through here and all the work you’ve done on yourself, I wonder if there is anything more a counselor could tell you. Sure, there could be some insights on the interaction between you and your H that we cannot see here, but I would think most of the hard self-confrontation is past you.

So maybe one way to get your H to go is to ask him along to give his input on you, that the joint sessions are meant only for your growth. I think the counselor will quickly run out of topics to discuss and start to put the focus on your H. But as long as you keep up the idea that any discussion with him is just to help focus on you, you may be able to skirt around his ego and let him see how some of your personal growth could benefit him. Anything you want to say to him, say it to yourself. Remember, he is narcissistic. BTW, have you read up any on narcissism? If not, you should seriously look into it.

[SouthernGirl]

SouthernGirl, I hear exactly what you are saying. I think you're 100% correct that my H will likely outwait me every time. Cobra also has a pretty good angle on my H.

I feel like your suggestions were perfect for where I was three weeks ago with H. Now though, there has been some discoveries made and a lie told. Any acceptance of his kind gestures at this point, I see as acceptance of his poor behavior as well....as a sign that all is well when all is NOT well. I've tried to regauge myself back to neutral, pleasant even. Still getting there. But I can't keep allowing us to sweep our problems under the rug or I will be 50 and still going over the same 'should I stay or should I go' routine. Ya know?

I think your advice is great if my focus was still H and 'getting' him to open up and be in a R with me. Bur right now I really need some help in being true to ME. Acting congruent with how I feel. Making my boundaries clearer. It's time for both of us to GROW UP.

Am I making sense? I really want to follow Stig's advice and detach from the outcome. Nops said the same thing-it's perhaps time to table thoughts of reconcilation. I need to figure out what I want from this R and what I am willing tolerate and what I'm not. Then I should probably communicate that somehow in a non-challenging, as vulnerable as I can be way. The rest is up to him.

Yes, you're making perfect sense, and I totally understand where you're coming from. But I still think that, if your h is the sort of guy I think he may be, that he will never say things along the lines of "yes, it was wrong to lie to you. I'm very sorry, and it won't happen again" ... until he is already way back into the r. Even then, he might never say it, but show you. By not looking at porn by himself again, and maybe make an oblique reference to it that lets you know he did "get" it, and "is" sorry. He already knows what he did was wrong, or he wouldn't try to make those elaborate excuses. If he's that "type" I'm thinking of, he's got a very elaborate, if internal, sense of ethics that'll tell him loudly enough when he messes up.

With a guy like that, vulnerability is your only effective tool. Think Southern Belle. Because deep down, he doesn't want to hurt you. Freeze him out, and he'll freeze back, and I assure you he can last twice as long as you can, and then some.

I'd give it a try. I don't mean be supplicating, just kind. And vulnerable. And accepting. What have you got to lose? You're there for a year. Might as well try something different.

[Greeneyedlass]

Yes, you're making perfect sense, and I totally understand where you're coming from. But I still think that, if your h is the sort of guy I think he may be, that he will never say things along the lines of "yes, it was wrong to lie to you. I'm very sorry, and it won't happen again" ... until he is already way back into the r. Even then, he might never say it, but show you. By not looking at porn by himself again, and maybe make an oblique reference to it that lets you know he did "get" it, and "is" sorry. He already knows what he did was wrong, or he wouldn't try to make those elaborate excuses. If he's that "type" I'm thinking of, he's got a very elaborate, if internal, sense of ethics that'll tell him loudly enough when he messes up.

With a guy like that, vulnerability is your only effective tool. Think Southern Belle. Because deep down, he doesn't want to hurt you. Freeze him out, and he'll freeze back, and I assure you he can last twice as long as you can, and then some.

I'd give it a try. I don't mean be supplicating, just kind. And vulnerable. And accepting. What have you got to lose? You're there for a year. Might as well try something different.

Southerngirl, this is how my H is too. If I act defensively/aggressively/stubbornly towards him...he will do it back harder. Then if I continue to act defensive etc it only goes to justify his behavior in his mind...it gets me nowhere really fast.

Heather when I read your post about the things your H was attempting to do (offer you the 1st bath, tousseling your hair etc, sleeping by you) I wondered "what exactly is her attitude gaining her here?" Now, please understand that's what I thought. Do I understand the resentment? Oh sure. But what really did your defensiveness gain you? It's another example IMPO where you are letting your resentment override reason. There were some opportunities to build closeness, granted they were on his terms...but they were opportunities nonetheless IMPO.

I remember you saying you wouldn't be the one making any further grand gestures, well it seems to me...that in some ways your H WAS making some gestures towards YOU. You have THREE instances where he was trying to do something with you in mind, three instances IMPO where he may have been trying to connect....although they may not have been the huge grand gestures you were looking for but you rebuffed them.

Just my observation.

[Crazy Eddie]

The problem is, of course, the possibility that he'll make gesture only until she softens toward him, at which point he'll resume his hurtful and uncooperative behavior. After a while, you just have to acknowledge that the evidence suggests that someone simply isn't interested in working harmoniously with you, but only in keeping you around to serve him and take his frustrations out on.

On the other hand, he could be trying to defend himself from the same thing he is for some reason expecting her to do. A lot of guys have reached the conclusion that any sort of apology is counterproductive, "giving in" to a woman only makes her your enemy, and small gestures are the only way to make up for any missteps on our part that a woman will accept and (eventually) respond to.

[heatherg]

Ok GEL, so tell me this. You find the porn on your H's computer, you confront him about it, he tells you it's off the table for discussion. Period, the end. The next day, he buys you bubble bath and wants you to take a bath. What would YOU do???