I Will Not Go Quietly

[Wonka]

Choc,

I can relate how emotionally difficult and draining this is; however, it is essential that you get on the DB wagon immediately and utilize the tools that many successful DBers have used in getting the WAS back in the marital fold in the face of an affair (whether it is EA, PA..whatnot).

My recommendation is to check your pride at the door and drop the self-righteous indigation posturing. You are correct that you cannot control your W or her actions. HOWEVER, the success of restoring the M and DBing is based on how you handle your own actions. Like it or not, you do have a lot of influence on how to DB your marriage. For those of us who have had to endure an affair, regardless of the length and/or level of it, need to remember that it is the dopamine of the OP that is fueling their actions and emotional distance from the marriage. The chemicals from a new person is driving them at the moment and they are pretty oblivious to the damage that is happening to their marriages and families. If you try to interfere, it would only drive the WAS closer to the OP as they feel the need to defend the OP. Instead, don't even talk about the OP because it is not where you should put your energies and gives them the message that the OP is "nothing."

This isn't about SSM or lack of intimacy at the moment...it is about the potentiality of an affair that is apparently happening or brewing. Speaking from experience, an affair isn't the end of the world..although it may make you feel this way! My point here is that you can DB the affair and come out as a winner. You need not to look any further than the most successful DBers on the board: kml (aka Ellie) and Sage who are over in the Piecing forum. Sage DB'd her H who had an affair for 2 years and they continued to live under the same roof. Now they are out of the woods and Sage has a beautiful baby daughter! [do not forget Jamesjohn too!] It can happen to you...just have to brace yourself for the rough journey ahead. I kid you not: it ain't fun at all!

OT: you state...

Yes, well, that would be the best bet, regardless of how he handles dealing with the EA. But, it is not to be, not yet. Perhaps when W is totally emotionally D and the great hope you and I BOTH see for Choc is past, he will pick up the book.

This is something I do not agree with. DBing is all about timing and this is the most critical time to go into DB mode and pick up the Divorce Remedy in addition to reading up on advice from DB vets. As long as Choc and Mrs. Choc are in the same house, the greater success of DBing the affair and restoring the marriage. Then they can work on sexual issues. That is going have to happen until the affair is truly over. Just take a look around those DBers in Piecing. Choc, you are going have to put your needs and self-righteous indigation on the back burner to put the focus on YOURSELF by presenting yourself as the best option to the OM. The tools and resources in the book and BB are all there for you to learn from.

NOP: you state...

We have NOT encouraged him to be a doormat, or to just accept his wife's inappropriate behavior as a "matter of course".

DBing is not about being a doormat or approving an affair. But instead establishing respectful boundaries without making guilt-inducing comments. That is what drives many WASes away--making them feel guilty for their behaviors. I've read many posts by a former WAS and the key he said in getting back to the M was the fact that his wife did not make him feel guilty or harp at him for his wayward behavior. He slowly came to the realization that he was being an idiot and that the grass isn't greener on the other side. If you want to read more about this former WAH and his wife, their screen names are Ceberon and Calystra. Ceberon said that he did not want to feel close to his W because he was afraid to give her hope and felt that if he tried...then he had to change his own stance and admit that the marriage was salvagble. Many WASes who are in affairs take on the position that the marriage is beyond repair and don't even want to "work on it" because it just undermines their view. In their distorted view, the OP understands and gets them...hence their emotional shut out to the spouse because they are invested in the OP. It takes time for these WASes to come around and you are going have to be patient with Mrs. Choc who is processing her internal feelings about the marriage.

OT: states this...

But, obsessing about the EA is NOT going to help. Trying to shame and guilt W back into the M is not going to lead to a healthy R.

This is a sound advice. Easier said than done...I know! You are going have to drop the rope and stop hinging your boat on your W. Dropping the rope means not having to react to every word or action she does. Instead, put the focus back on yourself and determine which 180s you need to make for yourself that will enhance yourself as a person. Make sure the changes are for yourself and make them permanent. Small changes are the things that the WAS notices, but does not comment on because they don't want to give you hope. They all do come around, Choc.

I've read some books that were helpful to me in the communication area and here are my suggestions:

How To Get Your Lover Back by Blase Harris
The Five Love Languages by Gary Chapman
Everybody Wins by Gary Chapman
How To Have That Difficult Conversation You've Been Avoiding by Henry Cloud and John Townsend
Nonviolent Communication: A Language of Life by Marshal B. Rosenberg
Not "Just Friends" by Shirley Glass
After the Affair by Janis Abrahms Spring
Love, Honor & Forgive Bill and Pam Farrell
Surviving an Affair by Willard Harley

If I were you, I'd get the following books immediately:

The Divorce Remedy by our own Michele Weiner Davis
The Five Love Languages
The Lost Art of Listening by Michael Nichols
Not "Just Friends"

Sometimes writing scripts here [emails, planned conversations] can help a long way in restoring the marriage. Goodness knows how many times I've posted in my own thread for feedback on emails to my DXW and conversations with her. In my situation, DXW moved out and there seems to be a strong annectodal evidence that it is much more difficult to restore the marriage when the WAS moves out of the house. My advice is to do all you can to ensure that your W stays in the house...even if you have to sleep in separate bedrooms. This is to give yourself an opportunity to do 180s, mysterious stuff, and do GAL stuff! Trust me, your W will sit up and take notice of these stuff internally.

Egads!! I've written a mega post like my old darling belly dancing partner, Joe (aka Koshka over in Suriving the D).

Oh and one more thing. You asked what were the positives...here is a list:

[*]Your W is still in the house
Your W is still engaging in conversations with you
Did not bring up any D talk
Opening up about her internal conflict with YOU
Apparently has cut back on contacts with OM
Admits to being confused
Allowed you to spoon with her and touch her back

[/list]

[NOPkins]

Hi, oldtimer.

I intended no sarcasm. Sorry if my post came off that way.

Quote:"Instead, Choc is ALL ABOUT HIS W. I can't imagine that she feels anything but smothered by his behavior right now. She can't breath, let alone get the kind of space she has been pretty darn direct about needing right now."

I believe if you read back on Choc's situation, you will find that he has been emotionally divorced from his wife for years. He has been instructed to reengage with his wife, not from a point of desperation, but from strength. This is what he is working toward doing.

I don't know where you got the impression that he is smothering her, but it is incorrect.

Quote:"But, obsessing about the EA is NOT going to help. Trying to shame and guilt W back into the M is not going to lead to a healthy R. I have no idea what you are suggesting Choc do as far as the EA as you are making your suggestions offline, but I think a lot of the advice you give online is very helpful. Choc needs to quit needing stuff from his W and GAL in a major way."

He is not obsessing about the affair. He is directly dealing with it. That is difficult to pull off from anyone's perspective. What he is NOT doing, is putting his head in the sand and ignoring it. He is being disrespected and deceived. He intends to bring that disrespect and deception into the light of day. Once that is done, then he will stop concentrating on the affair and work solely on his marriage.

Once he can work on his marriage, he can do so with at least a good portion of truth. It is near to impossible to truly recover a marriage whose recovery is based on unresolved deception. I think that most experts will agree on that.

All the best,
-NOPkins-

[NOPkins]

Wonka wrote:"DBing is not about being a doormat or approving an affair. But instead establishing respectful boundaries without making guilt-inducing comments."

I can go and fetch a couple of hundred posts on other forums where I have seen posters suggest just that, doormat behavior.

A respectful boundary can be one that simply says: "You will not contact other person from within the confines of our home. I find such activity to be very disrespectful".

Whether that would generate guilt in the recipient of said boundary is solely a function of the infidel's own emotional makeup, likely unpredictable by the betrayed spouse. The betrayed CAN predict that the infidel won't like it, but that's not guilt.

If your wayward spouse were wanting to introduce your children to the other person in an effort to "normalize" their affair, would you withhold your concerns out of fears of inducing potential guilt in your wayward spouse, or would you protect your children?

Michele seems like an incredibly insightful and practical woman. It seems to me that many of her posters place unwarranted emphasis on potentially misinterpreted positions taken in her books.

All the best,
-NOPkins-

[oldtimer]

Wonka,

Great post.

I think my post was a little unclear. I agree with you that Choc would be greatly helped by doing more DBing NOW. When I said it was not to be, I was referring to Choc's unwillingness to do so, not recommending that he not do so.

You are totally right that he has a golden opportunity right now. That is why it is frustrating to see it slip away. Because RIGHT NOW he is ahead of the game compared to many DBers, but I fear he will lose his advantage.

[NOPkins]

oldtimer wrote:"You are totally right that he has a golden opportunity right now. That is why it is frustrating to see it slip away. Because RIGHT NOW he is ahead of the game compared to many DBers, but I fear he will lose his advantage."

I am missing your point, would you mind precisely defining what is slipping away and what advantage he is losing?

Thanks,
-NOPkins-

[oldtimer]

NOP,

Certainly, Michelle's ideas, or anyone else's ideas can be misconstrued and used unhelpfully. Certainly that happens in this forum and in other forums on these boards. There is good advice and bad advice to be found in any discussion group, real or virtual.

My point is the same it has been.

The advantage Choc has is that his W is still open to the possibility of reconcilliation and willing to see an MC. Choc's activities are likely to cause his W to shut down. More consistent DBing would preserve his advantage, thus my belief that Choc would be helped by reading DR and by posting in another forum in which his sitch is closer to that of fellow posters.

[NOPkins]

oldtimer wrote:"Choc's activities are likely to cause his W to shut down."

Thanks for the reply.

Which activities would those be?

I am really trying to understand here.

Thanks,
-NOPkins-

[oldtimer]

NOP,

Thanks for trying to understand, but I don't think a dialogue between us about this is useful. Choc will either decide to post in another forum and try to seriously DB or not.

[oldtimer]

Chrome,

I just saw your post.

I know Choc has plenty of support from you all, and plenty of cheerleaders. I was trying to give him a wake up call, but it would probably be more careful for me to choose my words more carefully in some cases. For instance, I should have made clear that the email *would* be a nightmare in terms of DBing if he were to send it to his W. Writing the email itself (without sending it), is a great way to work through things and can be a great way of expressing oneself, and very healthy too. But I can certainly see how my phrasing made it sound as if I thought Choc expressing his thoughts was a problem. And I agree, sending that message is not very helpful.

[NOPkins]

oldtimer wrote:"Thanks for trying to understand, but I don't think a dialogue between us about this is useful. Choc will either decide to post in another forum and try to seriously DB or not."

Choc can speak for himself, of course, but last time I talked to him, he was "seriously DBing"

For what it's worth, I've read all Michele's books.

All the best,
-NOPkins-