What a good letter from your wife! A lot of information there. Listen to what she is saying about herself and her needs. IMO from the many letters I have seen from WA spouses, your wife has not clearly stated that she is done or leaving. She is being very honest with you about her confusion but that is a positive rather than a negative.
I am terrible at writing interpretations so here's what I would write to her if I was writing from your POV. Specifically I am taking your earlier e-mail and toning it back while still keeping the communication lines open. THIS IS NOT MEANT AS A LETTER TO SEND. I am just trying to capture my interpretation along with my perception of how you can respond to her with your words and actions.
Mrs Choc, Thanks for the response. I know our lives get busy at times but with everything going on I wanted to make sure there was not something more purposeful.
I was not upset about the doctor's visit; I just noticed it was a change. Thank you for explaining how you feel and about wanting some independence. I think you are a capable, smart and competent woman and you deserve to know that about yourself. If I have given you the impression that I am not IMPRESSED with your new career and that I think it is an easy job, then I have done a terrible job at expressing my admiration of you. I want you to know that I know you are working hard at this career and I respect that about you.
I also appreciate your honesty with me. Of course everything isn't just going to be fine overnight or quickly. I also agree that the "fix" needs to be a permanent fix.
I appreciate you are looking to figure out if there is something to save. I respect that you are taking this seriously.
So do I and I have made my decision. There is SOMETHING to save. I also want to make it clear that I do not believe you need to sacrifice your need for independence, a new career, and overall personal growth in order for us to fix our marriage. In fact I believe those things will go hand in hand with an improved marriage! I will also be looking at my own issues too.
Choc
FWIW if she is feeling like she wants and needs to grow up, then you need to be a support for her and NOT do things for her. I remember that issue back from the exchange about fast food. Your attitude toward her (and I really don't mean this as a criticism as you as a husband) was about telling her what she should do rather than listening to what she wanted to do. She needs to make her own decisions and own mistakes WITHIN the marriage so she does not feel she has to leave the marriage for that opportunity.
I do know it is THE key question for her right now, can she "find herself" WITHIN the marriage, or does she need to flee to find it.
I've also come to the conclusion that I can't answer that for you. So I've left HER to God (while being vigilant), and am instead working on ME and being the best person, dad, and -- to the extent that she will let me -- husband, that I can be.
ATTABOY!!! Perfect answer to that question. I am really impressed.
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
Thanks, Fearless. And trust me, I'm not sending anymore e-mails just yet. I did, in fact, WRITE the following one two days ago, but I never sent it. I may never send it, or I may send it right before I leave on my trip, I haven't decided yet. Like I said earlier this week, it is tough in my specific case, because I DON'T want to smother her, I DO need to appear more strong and more attractive and less needy/grabby, but yet AT THE SAME TIME this marriage has had a constant problem with lack of communication and lack of follow-thru.
In any event, here's the unsent letter:
Mrs. Choc.,
I know what you're thinking -- "great, another e-mail from Choc." LOL Hey, at least it's not "Earn Cash in Your Spare Time" or "Nigerian Businessman Needs to Verify Your Bank Account for Large Deposit," right?
Actually, this is not yet another in a series of heavy e-mails from me, but instead I wanted to let you know that it's the last one that I'll initiate, as I now have come to some conclusions about things, and one of them is that I need to stop pressuring you and I need to give you some time. If there's anything you'd ever like to discuss, or ask me, and you find it easier to do via e-mail, then of course I'll reply, and we still need to go to counselling to see if it will help us. I will still be your very best friend in the entire world, and you can count on me for support to the extent that I'm able to give it to you. I just mean that I'm not going to initiate any more emotional ambushes of you, either via e-mail or in person, as they're not fair, they're not productive, and they don't fit with where I need to go with my own life as "Choc".
It has been said that you can never truly have anything unless you're willing to let it go. I have SAID that I'm going to back off, but I haven't, really. I've pushed you for answers all the while saying "I don't expect any answers." I've poured out my feelings to you, when you already knew what they were anyway (I needed to tell you what I told you in my first two e-mails that started all of this, because God-only-knows what you must have thought was in my head these days, or how I felt about you) but after those, there was really nothing left to be said, and I now realize that I've only been one more needy/grabby person on your "to-do" list for the day.
How attractive!
I need to change my focus away from you, and onto myself. Because I can't change you anyway, nor should I want to. Sharing with you how I feel about you, no matter how eloquently or passionately, will not change you, and frankly working on myself is enough of a project for any one man anyway.
There are things I need to change about my life, for my own sake and for the sake of our children. I need to get it in order, for whatever the future holds for me. I need to clean it up literally (my bedroom, our house, our yard), financially, and figuratively (other issues I need to work on), and I need to begin all three right now, and in fact I've already started.
I now know that you are in the same process, and I thank you for sharing what must have been very difficult feelings with me.
It is still my hope that we can both find room in the "new and improved Choc. and Mrs. Choc." for each other as husband and wife, and that we will enjoy a long, happy life together as lovers, parents and grandparents someday. It is still my heart's wish, and it is still my daily prayer.
It's just not going to be my DAILY FOCUS anymore, as it wears me down and prevents me from embarking on the improvements that I need to make, and it applies pressure to you that isn't fair and isn't helpful.
The future will bring what it will bring, and I have to let go, and only God can catch me.
Okay. Well IN CASE you do want to send it, I'll give you my edited version (I love editing ) I deleted things that I just feel Mrs Choc does not NEED to read. (you don't need to be an open book to her as she is not an open book to you, KWIM?) I only changed a couple of lines and added one line. What do you think of the new version?? Can you tell what information I am editing out and how it changes the tone of the e-mail while still leaving what I think are your main points?
Mrs. Choc.,
I know what you're thinking -- "great, another e-mail from Choc." LOL Hey, at least it's not "Earn Cash in Your Spare Time" or "Nigerian Businessman Needs to Verify Your Bank Account for Large Deposit," right?
Actually, this is not yet another in a series of heavy e-mails from me. I'll back off of those for now unless you insist I keep them up:) If there's anything you'd ever like to discuss, or ask me, and you find it easier to do via e-mail, then of course I'll reply. We still need to go to counseling to see if it will help us. I will still be your very best friend in the entire world, and you can count on me for support to the extent that I'm able to give it to you.
I need to change my focus away from you, and onto myself. Because I can't change you anyway, nor DO I want to. Sharing with you how I feel about you, no matter how eloquently or passionately, isn’t helpful to you, and frankly working on myself is enough of a project for any one man anyway.
There are things I need to change about my life, for my own sake and for the sake of our children. I need to get it in order, for whatever the future holds for me. I need to clean it up literally (my bedroom, our house, our yard), financially, and figuratively (other issues I need to work on), and I need to begin all three right now, and in fact I've already started.
I now know that you are in the same process, and I thank you for sharing what must have been very difficult feelings with me.
It is still my hope that we can both find room in the "new and improved Choc. and Mrs. Choc." for each other as husband and wife, and that we will enjoy a long, happy life together as lovers, parents and grandparents someday. It is still my heart's wish, and it is still my daily prayer.
The future will bring what it will bring, and I have to let go, and only God can catch me.
I do love you.
Choc.
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
I want to encourage you just to file the letter away for another day.
It will appear as needy because it contains only words of things that need to be done, and of promises to be fulfilled.
Go and DO some of the things in the letter. Actions. Demonstrate changes without pointing them out. She will notice.
She has heard empty promises/wishes/intentions before. Maybe they weren't in a letter, but while sitting on the couch or riding in the car.
Prove it to her before you say it to her.
-NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
I want to encourage you just to file the letter away for another day.
Oh I absolutely agree. I just edited in case he was tempted to send it (It had way too much open emotion and information) and more to show what I think Choc could edit out of his words to her and actions in their daily life. He has a tendency for overexplaining to her (I have the same problem so it's easy to recognize:)) I wanted to point out that he can tell her he's backing off without writing a paragraph explaining why it will be helpful to her and the marriage for him to back off. What do you think?
Also do you think he should verbally tell her that he does admire her and understands that her career is not easy and is important? Her letter stated that she thinks he either doesn't respect her career choice or maybe demeans it? Should that be cleared up in a direct manner?
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
Quote:"Also do you think he should verbally tell her that he does admire her and understands that her career is not easy and is important? Her letter stated that she thinks he either doesn't respect her career choice or maybe demeans it? Should that be cleared up in a direct manner? "
Since her career choice at this point in time has been a disaster, and mostly self serving, then if I were to recommend any kind of validation, it would be to complement her physique and to thank her for her efforts to bring additional funds into the family coffers.
The fact is, with her inappropriate interactions with other workers, she hasn't earned much respect for much else. In my opinion, once all the dust settles, she will likely find herself working in another field, or at least another gym.
-NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
Since her career choice at this point in time has been a disaster, and mostly self serving,... with her inappropriate interactions with other workers
Well the self serving thing and inappropriate interactions were obvious to me. I didn't realize the disaster issue with her career choice otherwise. I thought besides successfully working on her physique she was studying for and possibly taking tests to be certified as a personal trainer. If there truly isn't any difficult work she has done and it's all been pretty much about her looking good and getting inappropriate attention, then I agree that stating admiration and/or complimenting her wouldn't be appropriate and it's probably best to just not say anything.
That is an important point. Compliments should be sincere and deserved or else it causes more problems, IMHO.
Is there anything she's been doing that is worthwhile for him to admire or compliment???
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
Choc, Some similarities and what I did or didn't do.
I think she is trying to see if she can create some space, and some independence, for herself WITHIN our marriage BB fills any space with her dogs then I have a difficult time getting us back together.
What I have done is to move the dogs (the things that are the physical or emotional barriers) and place myself next to BB. She is a rub her back/feet junkie.
instead of falling asleep on the couch like I always used to, Our situation was, BB never liked to watch what I liked, so I recorded my programs and watched them when she went to bed. I knew I would face resistance if I went to bed with BB and lying there and the prospects of being rejected or ridiculed wasn't much of an incentive for going to bed with BB.
I don't stay up late much any more. The problem has always been, once BB hits the pillow, she becomes a rag doll and wants to sleep.
She kind of did this "scoff" thing, but then allowed me up close to her.. BTDT. So Susan will accept back rubs. That is good. My personal opinion is people need touch time. Keep it up as often as you can. Frequency counts more than duration.
I do as much as I can. Instead of doing the back and foot rubs for a long time and resenting the nothing in return, that typically happens, I shorten the rub time but keep the frequency high.
She always tenses up when I do that, she says because "you snore and I can't fall asleep," but I know that's just an excuse for her fear of intimacy and closeness with me. Snore, BTDT. BB moved to the other bedroom for 5+ years. Sex was 1X a week if I turned on the TV and we watched her favorite program a little, had sex and then she took off to the other room. SUCKED!!!!
I did a sleep study; got a CPAP machine/blower and use a mask like a pilot wears. No snoring now but BB still has complaints that she can hear the whoosh sound going through my mask. Picky people, ugh.
Choc, the longer an issue is a problem, the longer some people (wives in this case) hang on to the resentments they have.
Consider a sleep study. Talk to your doctor and say that your breathing is irregular. My insurance company won't do a darn thing about snoring but they have cart blanch for irregular breathing situations. The key words are "irregular breathing or pauses when breathing.
The medical side is when breathing is irregular less oxygen gets to the brain, blood pressure rises, the heart has to work harder, people are more productive when they sleep more soundly, and a side benefit is a lot fewer pee breaks at night.
I complimented her on her muscles (this is the first skin-to-skin contact I've had with her in MONTHS/... Years??? Chock my man, "years" is way too long, but you know that.
Breaking old patterns is tough. I have my share of things that I can do easily for someone else but not for me. Congratulations for doing the skin-to-skin contact.
I bet your heart/mind was all over the place during the Kiss. WTG!!!
She didn't answer, but said, "let's do spoons," and we did.. Her saying, "let's do" is a big plus to my ears.
until I finally cooked her out of the place Same here Choc. I limit the area of my body that touches BB and move the covers up-down, or remove covers right to left or uncover our feet or legs. BB complains. Wants to be covered up but doesn't want to be too warm or too cool. What is a guy to do?
The goal was to show some tenderness to her, and to show her that I could lovingly accept a rejection without getting all pouty like I used to.. Change that attitude to: The goal was to show some tenderness to her, and to show her that I could lovingly be with her and just hold her. Have some skin-to-skin time and exchange some kisses.
Maybe in a month you can lay face to face with her on top. "Peace Between The Sheets" style.
she says because "you snore and I can't fall asleep," but I know that's just an excuse for her fear of intimacy and closeness with me.
This may or may not be an excuse to avoid intimacy and closeness with you. In my sitch, my H also snores...if he begins to snore before I fall asleep, I cannot fall asleep either...and damn is that ever frustrating!!! It definitely caused some friction (and not the good kind) between us for awhile...when he'd snore I wanted to just shove him out of bed. He couldn't help the snoring, but it sure grated on my nerves. There's an easy solution to that though, buy her some foam eaplugs! They work absolute wonders and have allowed my H and I to sleep in the same bed much, much more frequently than we used to. Buy the foam, not the plastic ones...the plastic ones hurt if you lay on your side, the foam you don't feel at all.
fearless wrote:"Is there anything she's been doing that is worthwhile for him to admire or compliment??? "
Only Choc could tell you. Whatever it is, the compliment needs to be found in a familial setting. Highlighting the strength of the family with focus on its members, would be a good place to start. Her priorities are (as is typical of her current mindset), skewed and confused. Helping her focus on her family would be good.
-NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
) I deleted things that I just feel Mrs Choc does not NEED to read. (you don't need to be an open book to her as she is not an open book to you, KWIM?) I only changed a couple of lines and added one line. What do you think of the new version?? Can you tell what information I am editing out and how it changes the tone of the e-mail while still leaving what I think are your main points?