I appreciate your reply. Any insight about what my wife might be experiencing is especially useful.
At first, we approached this as if her zero-drive had a physical cause. It began with the birth of our first child, about eight years ago. But, now that I think of it, there was tons of resentment in her then -- about being stuck being a mother, and being a wife. I honestly had no pre-conceived ideas about what "she should be" (other than a romantic partner), and I helped her soooo much with our infant daughter at the time (and, our second too) -- but I really think she resented me just the same.
I can't recall how long we went after the birth before having any intimate contact, but I'm pretty sure it was on the order of 9 - 12 months. And, I can remember finally getting to the point right before then that I literally pleaded with tears in my eyes for some sort of affection/physical contact. That was a most humbling experience and one that probably sealed my fate for a few of those years, at least.
Over time, she has tried to address the problem. She recognizes it is a problem. But, I really don't think she understands how much it hurts. And, she seems happy to ignore it until three or four months roll by.
One strike against the resentment theory is she claims that even by herself MB, which is apparently a rare event, it's not very pleasurable for her, and she cannot reach orgasm most of the time. Before the first baby, MB alone would not have been a problem. And, with me, things usually "worked" for her.
When we finally are together, she's been much more reserved about what we do in these last eight years, compared to our life before children. There have been a few exceptions, usually involving alcohol. But, generally, when we are together in bed, she is really uptight.
For awhile, she claimed that no one, not even "Tom Cruise" [uhm, it was a few years ago] would make her feel interested in sex. Though, at other times, she certainly has dumped on me the reasons why I in particular fail to excite her.
Sometimes I worry that she could fall into an emotional or physical affair, given the right circumstances. It seems unlikely that I would myself. I grew up watching my mother be tormented by my father's obvious-EA-with-PA-undertones. Also, I'm typically not in circumstances where finding someone would happen. Shy isn't the right word, but it's close enough; I just don't have the "gift" for attracting women. I've only had one other "girlfriend" in my entire life. But, I can see how it happens, and I'm certainly not immune or of perfect character. Life right now is very lonely. So, I appreciate your warning.
We will be having a sit-down soon. From our last discussion about our miserable marriage, she offered to call her long-time-no-see counselor to set up a MC appointment for us. That's in a week or two. Meanwhile, we've had an anniversary. I got her a very thoughtful card (blank, which I filled in) and a very thoughtful present. [She got me nothing.] She has tried to give me a few hugs and a kiss the last few days, and I've tried to gracefully receive them. But, it is very difficult for me to reciprocate or accept -- my inclination at this point is to tense up, because there is a lot of resentment in me.
I honestly don't know if or how much I love her at this point. It's frightening. Maybe I should let her see that in our MC appointment. But, I don't know if it would wake her up or just be the final straw.
Check out what I wrote over on TiredofPain's thread. It applies here as well.
As I said over there, I just re-read a letter H wrote to me after he dropped the D bomb. A lot of his issues went back to right after 1st son was born as well.
I can't really explain why this happens to us women, but I guess I have to say that it's just the whole "mom" thing. Why does it happen? I don't know. For me, like I've said before, all these years, I was always trying to be the "mom" I thought I should be -- June Cleaver or something, but that's just not me so therefore I was always unhappy trying to be someone I wasn't and couldn't be and thinking that was what I should be.
Anyway, you do need to have that sit down. As far as her lack of desire, I know that as soon as I realized that I could lose H (and even before I knew he was having another EA), my blinders were taken away and I realized how very sexy and attractive he still is to me. I look at him now and wonder why I wasn't seeing this all along and I truly don't know the answer to that.
If you guys are going to MC, I would probably just upchuck it all then. I don't know if I would even try to have any sort of sit-down talk w/ her prior to that time. Then the MC will know all that you're feeling as well for future appointments, etc.
I think what it comes down to is that she needs to realize how serious things are and needs to WANT your M to work out and needs to want to put in the effort it takes to fix things. Also, as for how you are feeling about her, my H had gotten to the point where he only loved me as a person and the mother of his children. I would try to initiate and he would say "I don't want THAT from YOU." Well, I think as time has gone on, he has gotten those feelings back for me - either that or he's a darn good actor and I don't think that's the case. So, what I'm saying is that as she changes her views and actions, your feeings for her can change and go back to feeling positive about her and your M.
Me: 38 H: 35 S4, S5, S10 Bomb 01/07 Wanted D - nothing would change his mind Numerous A's prior to D bomb; EA prior/during D bomb Piecing 04/07 Deployed for a year 05/07 Still Piecing 2010 M 11 yrs 05/10
Well, we had our first MC appointment a couple of days ago. Went a little different than I expected. I was expecting us to lay out our concerns/issues on the table for each other to hear. Instead, I think the counselor preferred to catch the gist of my issues from the "history form" I filled out while we were in the waiting room, so that my wife would NOT hear them, just yet.
(btw: On the form, I essentially wrote that the biggest issue from my perspective is that wife's LD has been received by me as continuous rejection for 7 or so years, and not much, if any, love is left; I am trying to hang in there for the kids, but finding it increasingly difficult and hopeless).
We had what I thought was a tremendous breakthrough a week or two before the appointment. Part of the problem has been, I'm told, sex has been physically uncomfortable for her, making it difficult for her to "stay interested" during our rare time together. I'll spare you the details (I can write them elsewhere, if you're interested, or you can google two words -- clitoral adhesions), but I think we solved that problem. She, for the first time I recall in 7 or 8 years, enjoyed herself as she did "before kids", and, if you don't mind me saying so, I was able to bring her to orgasm. She even initiated, as she had found earlier in the week the physical fix had worked, and was, I guessed, curious/hopeful sex with me might be more enjoyable than it has for a long long time. Things were looking up, or so I thought.
Before we left for our MC appointment, I asked if things were still working better for her physically. She angrily replied that she didn't think the lack of sex was a major problem (might have thrown in an "at least not for me"), and said that there are other issues. Maybe I had just stuck my foot in my mouth, but I was honestly hopeful things might naturally get easier for us. It's been hard to forget this angry display of her apparent ignorance or indifference of how I feel. I suspect part of it was her being defensive. But, still, it has occupied too many of my thoughts these last few days.
I don't think she understands -- despite being told multiple times -- it's not the physical act I've craved. Rather, it's the constant rejection I've felt over the years. It's to the point where I don't crave it any more, I don't ask for it, I don't (generally) mention it. I'm not sure I'm interested in it at all with her any more. I'm numb to the thought of her.
She told the counselor she wants to meet with the counselor privately (without me) to vent some things that bug her about me, that she thinks maybe it won't be productive to state them in my presence and so she wants the counselor to help her decide what is important to discuss together. Gee, that feels good. Maybe there are some ways in which I'm a disappointment that I haven't yet heard multiple times. Maybe if and when my "important flaws" are revealed to me I'll be surprised by their gravity. The gravity I feel at the moment though is how empty and non-loving towards her I feel. I really wish we could just go our separate ways. (I won't, so far, because of the kids.)
She has had some pretty cranky days since our appointment. I'm really tired of putting up with it. I honestly don't remember the last time I felt any joy from being around her, and I don't anticipate feeling any ever. It's become seemingly impossible to enjoy time with her, because I resent her role in our relationship's demise, and I cannot put out of my mind how hopeless our situation seems to me.
Well, wasn't that special. Thanks for attending my pity party. I'm fighting a cold. Maybe things won't look so negative after the cold goes away.
she wants to meet with the counselor privately (without me) to vent some things that bug her about me, that she thinks maybe it won't be productive to state them in my presence and so she wants the counselor to help her decide what is important to discuss together. Gee, that feels good
This is not as bad as it sounds, let it go.
Both my H and I had separate sessions with the MC, its a good thing!!
Heywyre
M - 57 H - 65 1st A-bomb - Nov 27/02 2nd A-bomb - Dec 13/06 together 21 years *************************** Insanity is doing something over and over and expecting different results (Albert Einstein)
I'm all for individual sessions. I've supported her brief attempts at individual counseling multiple times before.
What irks me about this is her mildly dramatic claim that there are things that bother her about me that she doesn't want to tell me because it might hurt my feelings. Yet, at the same time, she willfully denies the importance of the hurt I've been feeling for the last many years on the daily basis. It feels like she is manipulating the situation, trying to change the subject so we don't get to the real issues.
Maybe my flaws are the root of her apparent need to reject me. I'll try to be open to it, if and when I get to hear them. But, that's not how I've experienced it. And, it stings. I've not been perfect, but from the beginning I've been supportive of her to the extreme. I've given and given to support her needs and whims. She doesn't appreciate me. And, from my perspective, what flaws I see in myself have been made worse by her continued rejection of me.... I guess she and I must see things pretty differently, good thing we are in counseling!
I know, I should let it go. Just feeling a bit impatient I guess.
Just want to make a few comments. Many times, even when someone agrees to attend counseling, they feel like someone is attacking them and finding fault with them...THAT feeling can put them on the defensive and make them lash out. It's possible that's where some of her anger is coming from. If she's feeling like she's been put on the defensive I'm not surprised she'd make the comment about you to the C that she did....just try to let that go.
Also, it's probably a good thing that she speaks to the C one-on-one, you probably ought to do this at least once as well (oops just noticed that you have). Often there are things that can be revealed in private to the C that a person is too shy/embarrassed/scared to say in front of their spouse. That doesn't mean though that eventually those things won't be brought to light with you in the room, the C may even coach her towards telling you whatever it is she said to the C, to you, on her own. IMPO, at LEAST she asked to speak to the C in private rather than not speaking to the C at all and imparting whatever information she has that she feels is important.
As for the breakthrough, it sure is easy to get your hopes up at times like that isn't it? It's so perfectly natural to do that too. You think "things are looking up, now things are going to start getting better." Well yeah, they will start getting better most likely, but not without setbacks....not without some backtracking, and probably not without some hurt feelings from both sides as well. Sometimes it's two steps forward one step back...it's going to take time. Just hang in there, and try, try, try to be patient.
Man, it's so wierd, because I think you could be my H w/ all the things you are saying.
Let's see, H felt he was doing all sorts of things around the house to ease the stress and make things easier for me, but I didn't realize that's what he felt like he was doing. He seems to think that he communicated to me numerous times how unhappy he was, etc., etc., but either he didn't push hard enough OR he really didn't communicate very well b/c I never got it.
Anyway, that's neither here nor there. He also was at the point when he dropped the D bomb that he "didn't want that from me" (sex); he had felt rejected for years in that regard (I honestly did not GET this, but until the D bomb, he never used that word -- NEVER did he sit down and discuss how us not having sex was affecting him). He just seemed to try to figure out WHY I didn't want to or whatever, but truly it was not even discussed that often. He just quietly "took it" and I had no idea what was going on inside his head re: this issue.
I know you feel you have talked to her about all of this, so I'm hopeful the counseling will help you two. Maybe there are other issues that you are unaware of and you guys can just deal w/ it all and hopefully move on and work on getting your M back to a better place.
It can be done. I think my H was exactly where you are and I was able to bring him back from the brink!! And I certainly NEVER plan to forget the lessons learned and allow us to go back to the rut we were obviously in.
Honestly, I don't think our types of 'problems' are uncommon in M's at all. I think most people just give up and D or just ignore it and 'live w/ it.' I can tell you that once I got my act together and realized what I was missing, I'm so very happy that we 'got it together.' Our M/R is so much more fulfilling now.
Me: 38 H: 35 S4, S5, S10 Bomb 01/07 Wanted D - nothing would change his mind Numerous A's prior to D bomb; EA prior/during D bomb Piecing 04/07 Deployed for a year 05/07 Still Piecing 2010 M 11 yrs 05/10
I've given and given to support her needs and whims
Maybe this is a BIG part of the problem between you
Quote:
It feels like she is manipulating the situation, trying to change the subject so we don't get to the real issues.
Of course she is trying to manipulate the situation. That is what people do that are confused.
Heywyre
M - 57 H - 65 1st A-bomb - Nov 27/02 2nd A-bomb - Dec 13/06 together 21 years *************************** Insanity is doing something over and over and expecting different results (Albert Einstein)
