Madonna/Whore Part 3

[Greeneyedlass]

COG,

Yep you are going against the grain here again LOL, so that prompts me to ask you this...and I mean absolutely no offense, it's an honest question. Have you ever been cheated on? Have you ever been betrayed by someone you trusted so totally that it shook you to your very foundation?

But ask yourself some questions. Why do you really need to see that cell bill? What will you do if you find out he's called her? What good will it do to know? Will you leave him, further critisize him, put a bar of soap in his mouth, what? How will seeing that bill improve your ST?

The bill has nothing really to do with the ST COG, it has to to with rebuilding trust from infidelity. What she's hoping to see is that he HASN'T contacted that escort again, which would verify what he told her, which would in turn help to rebuild the trust. If she finds out he DID call her, then that goes back to tearing down the trust again....because he would have lied to her about it. Heywyre and her H have more than just w/m issues to deal with. What good would it do to know? Oh come on...if he contacted the escort, there would be a VERY GOOD chance that he didn't just talk with her. As Heywyre herself said, STD's....she has every right to know EXACTLY what she's dealing with in her marriage. So once again, this has to do with TRUST issues between them, not ST.

[fearless]

FWIW

Cog,

I understand what you are saying (i.e. looking for things to obsess about) and the context from which you are referring to Michelle's opinion on "Snooping" and affairs. However HeyWyre and her H are past the point of Michelle's INTIAL position on "snooping" and Heywyre is not looking for issues to obsess about. If you read further in Michelle's book where she addresses the wayward spouse (Betrayer) that has come back into the marriage (a la Mr. Heywyre), she explicitly tells the Betrayer that they MUST be transparent to the betrayed spouse. So Heywyre is right in ensuring that she has knowledge that her H has completely given up on the past affair.

The issue she and her H seem to have to deal with, still, is the fact that her need for the phone records are NOT a punishment for her H. Her H seems to not understand that viewing the phone record is a way of reassurance for Heywyre - both in that she can see no calls have occurred AND that her H is truly interested in caring for her feelings and needs - and is not retribution for his transgressions.

My opinion as always.

Heywyre,

I really do not think your H understands clearly that reassurance and caring is behind your need for the phone records and not for punishment or retribution.

At this point would it be worthwhile to wait and discuss in your counseling session???

Good luck

[Heywyre]

GEL - thanks for the support, I know you TRULY understand where I am coming from

FEARLESS - I also thank you for your understanding. As for waiting to talk about it at our next C session, I really don't think I want to wait that long and hope the issue will be addressed TODAY and WITHOUT me having to ask again!! This is something we have already gone over in C, although the C didn't really specify their opinion on it. However, if the information is not forthcoming, I just might hold out and let them deal with it because, quite frankly, I am really exhausted right now after that lousy weekend

[COG]

Heywyre,

I understand where you are coming from COG but you also have to understand where I am coming from too.

I do Heywyre, I honestly do. What I don't understand is why you keep acting the same way towards your H, but keep expecting different results.

Why do I care if he saw her? SHE'S AN ESCORT !!!!! Hello?? STDs ????

I did'nt realize that you can get STDs via cell phones. Boy I am behind the times. And I did'nt mention anything about seeing her, I thought the discussion was about the cell phone bill and him contacting her. How on earth would you prove he had sex with her by looking at the cell phone bill. Do you see how this obsession is blocking your logical thinking, and how destructive it is? Why don't you just call the escort/OW and ask her?

I specifically told him I wouldn't look at his answers and he said "it doesn't matter to me that you see them" - so there was no snooping, I had permission

So what your saying is that eavesdropping, snooping, being nosey is OK as long as you have persmission? How does that help YOU move forward with your life?

It has nothing to do with me "being sexy" because he doesn't find me that anyway.

Yes, right, I realize that, but is'nt your goal for him to find you sexy? How do you expect him to see you as sexy, if he has to answer to you like a little boy to his mommy?

As much as it might not appear sexy, at least I am standing up for my rights and what I believe in first and foremost - HONESTY

I disagree. You are'nt standing up for your rights, you are caving in to your fears. Again I say, Let It GO! What hill do you want to die on? You have him moving in the right direction, whay jeapordize that just to feed your insecurities.

.and I mean absolutely no offense, it's an honest question. Have you ever been cheated on? Have you ever been betrayed by someone you trusted so totally that it shook you to your very foundation?

No offense taken at all. Of course I have, everyone has. 90% of country music songs are about the lying and the cheating and the broken hearts. It's not a rare occurance, it's normal for most couples. I've been cheated on by several different women that I thought were completely mine. I'm not sure about my W. I know she dated a guy a couple of times, "just friends". I know she wrestled with the guy at the house, with the kid's home because they told me so. I know she's still in contact with him occasionally. I know the pain, I know the fear, I know the seemingly unstoppable urge to have a PI follow her, or a wire tap on the phone, or snoop whenever I can. I understand, I really do understand your position. Just trying to get you to think outside the box, from logic, not emotion.

The bill has nothing really to do with the ST COG, it has to to with rebuilding trust from infidelity.

The bill has everything to do with the ST. The whole attitude of wanting to see the phone bill is parental, and YOU two above anyone else should understand the ramifications of assuming that role with your H. Your H's don't want to have sex with their mother's. Don't you get it? It's not just about this phone bill, it's about the way you treat him. This is'nt the only area of his life that you tend to treat him this way. Making him accountable, looking down on him as if he is a child.

What she's hoping to see is that he HASN'T contacted that escort again, which would verify what he told her, which would in turn help to rebuild the trust.

It would help her feel more secure, and yes able to trust, but I just want you to consider the cost? What affect will it have on HIM, on his sexual vision of you. Don't think their related? Better think long and hard? Pardon that pun.

Oh come on...if he contacted the escort, there would be a VERY GOOD chance that he didn't just talk with her.

Yep, that's true. Definately possible. I won't argue that. I'm just saying that there'll be a cross to bear for every action. I'm more concerned with Heywyres' actions than that of her H. I want her to summon every ounce of courage, strength and faith to move on with her life, let go the fear, the anxiety, the need to control, and find peace in the storm. It is true love, passion, sex, that you want, but your fear, distrust, controlling behaivior and mothering instincts are dousing that flame like a bucket of water.

As Heywyre herself said, STD's....she has every right to know EXACTLY what she's dealing with in her marriage.

Absolutely she does, but it's impossible to ever know exactly what we're dealing with. That's a dream, living in denial. I'm not saying she should stay with a man she thinks has STD's, or even for her to turn a blind eye. But fear is rampant, and the attack is fierce.

It's trust we need, trust in God that there is a purpose and a plan for everything.

Love,

COG

[Heywyre]

COG, my dear friend. Let me tell you a few things here.

First of all, I am not "acting the same way" and expecting different results. As a matter of fact, my H has commented on how much I have changed (for the better I might add). However, it was also an agreement we came to in aiding our R to move forward. I am not asking him to hand over every bill with detailed accounts of where he was, what he did, who he was with. We agreed that THAT particular cell bill was crucial because he had to go to the city where OW was - a 3-hour drive I might add. So the odds of him "just phoning her" when she's an escort is rather remote, wouldn't you say?

The escort is an independant, therefore she does not answer calls that are blocked, therefore I would have to reveal my home phone number to her and I am very doubtful she would even talk to me, being my H said she was "quite ticked off" when he told her they were through. The odds of her helping me are remote, to say the least.

My H has been EXTREMELY secretive so him revealing the questionnaire to me and allowing me to see it is a HUGE move forward on his part and to my recovery. I do not view it as snooping whatsoever. Besides, the ST has already told us they will be discussed "in detail" on our first visit. No sense hiding things now is there?

If my H has indeed been with this escort again, I have every right to know, and know NOW!!! What is the point of going to a ST, thinking it is ok to proceed with having sex with your H when you are concerned about the consequences? I want to be able to repair the problems in our M but if every time we proceed to be intimate I have to question whether or not he saw the OW a month ago, there won't be much progress now will there?

[Greeneyedlass]

COG,

Remember we are dealing with a man who has W/M, not your average Joe with a normal sex drive towards his spouse. With him, considering his track record "IF" he called her while out of town just a couple of weeks ago the chances are very high he also saw the escort. Not to mention he had promised Heywyre he was going NC with the escort....so even simply talking to her on the phone would have broken that promise.

Ok, so you've been cheated on...that's good info to have thanks for being honest about that, but your attitude towards cheating surprises me somewhat. Cheating is not "normal" for most couples, not in my perception...not in the perception of many people I know either...so I absolutely disagree with that statement. As far as I am aware my current H is the only man I've been in a serious relationship with who has ever stepped across that line, so in my experience it's definitely not normal. I have never cheated on anyone either. My parents haven't cheated (although my dad during a frank discussion told me one time he had almost once), my brother has never cheated, my best friend has never cheated (and believe me if she had she'd have told me). I can't be one of the few people in this world who can think of several people off the top of my head that they know for certainty haven't had infidelity touch their marriage.

COG, you don't have to agree with me, you don't have to agree with Heywyre either....none of us has to agree on anything, but take a look at much of the literature that has been written about reconciling after infidelity (you may have already done so and disagreed with those authors too, Michelle is one of the authors I'm referring to...so is Shirley Glass, heck Dr. Phil too! thought I'd better throw a guy in there for good measure) Right at the top of the list of requirements for someone who has cheated...to regain their wounded spouse's trust, after STOP SEEING THE OTHER PERSON, is COMPLETE TRANSPARENCY. Complete transparency means, handing over usernames/passwords to any internet accounts, handing over cellphone/credit card records, accounting for whereabouts (being where you say you will be). Yes, it is very parental...cannot dispute that, but that's how the trust gets reinstilled in the wounded party. Heywyre's H's cell phone was an instrument for his infidelity and that's why those records are so crucial right now...even if it is to sooth her anxiety. She cannot blindly trust right now, and that's what you are advising her to do...that is asking too much of her right now. HE cheated, these are some of consequences for what he did....and HE as agreed to abide by them. Whether you agree with it or not, he has...and honestly that's what's important.

Total transparency doesn't mean she checks up on him for ever either. It means she verifies what she needs to. FWIW, our own MC sat right across the room from my H after I found out about his cheating and told him "if you want to save your marriage you will have to be willing to do whatever it takes to help heal her. If that means you have to call her 24 times a day, do it. If that means you hand her your cell phone every day when you get home so she can see it, do it. If that means, she needs to put a keylogger on your computer to verify you aren't going to Adult Friend finder any longer, do it. If that means she's your twin and goes with you everywhere...do it, and don't complain about it." I kid you not, straight out a Phd's mouth!

Sounds parental huh? That's because it is. But his willingness to do any &/or all of those things is what has rebuilt my trust in him. I don't find it necessary at all anymore to check up on him or verify things...because he did what I needed to heal, willingly. Heywyere shouldn't continue to monitor things forever (if she did that would be another problem entirely), you do it for a time, then you become willing to try to trust again. When you do that you give opportunities for them to do things without verifying...and the trust slowly returns.

It's too much to ask of someone who has been cheated on recently and repeatedly (like Heywyre has) to say "I want her to summon every ounce of courage, strength and faith to move on with her life, let go the fear, the anxiety, the need to control", basically concentrate on his actions now...forget about what he did in the past"...when she's still so close to the raw feelings infidelity brings.

Sorry, I just wholeheartedly and respectfully disagree with you.

GEL

[Greeneyedlass]

Oh and COG, Heywyre has changed her behavior towards her H tremendously just in the last few weeks. She's not doing the same things over...and it's been making a HUGE difference in their relationship. She really has made great progress in her marriage recently.

[Heywyre]

Wow - thanks GEL for the words of support AND encouragement.

I really do feel as though I/we have made great strides the past couple of weeks and it was VERY difficult but we have got to a point where I don't want to back down and start all over again. I need to be able to trust him and, like you said, considering his repeated behaviour and crushing of the trust I once had, this is crucial in rebuilding my trust. Heck, H even said so last night that it might take 1½ years or more of checking his cell bill and/or visa and he's "ok with that, if it will help you trust me again". He even said he was skeptical that I could ever "totally trust" him again but that is a "chance" he has to take to save our M.

Yes, he's still defensive and I don't blame him. I am putting him in a place he is not used to - transparency. But I had to be put in a place many times over that I wasn't used to - someone lying right to my face. I think that is a LOT worse than transparency by a longshot

Yes, he's still controlling - he's been like that all his life and can be VERY stubborn

Yes, he's feeling vulnerable - but he even admitted as strange as it feels, he's okay with it because we have moved to another level in our R

So, the positives definitely outweigh the negatives in this situation and I think once this is dealt with, it will be extremely beneficial to not only me to gain the trust back, but also to my H to confirm in his mind that all women are NOT "the same" and there is actually someone out there that loves him and is willing to fight for their R, even if it means putting him in an uncomfortable position

[Greeneyedlass]

Oh and COG,

One more thing I forgot to mention (like my response wasn't long enough huh?) A byproduct of my H's accountability to me when I was verifying and checking up on him to rebuild MY trust, was that he learned to be open with me about more than just bills/cell phones. He's really learned to be more open with himself with me, to share himself with me...he's learned to trust that I wasn't going to abandon him or sentence him to a life of being judged for what he did to me/our marriage either.

Heywyre...this was exactly the same thing in my sitch...what a shock huh since our guys happen to be so very similar.

the positives definitely outweigh the negatives in this situation and I think once this is dealt with, it will be extremely beneficial to not only me to gain the trust back, but also to my H to confirm in his mind that all women are NOT "the same" and there is actually someone out there that loves him and is willing to fight for their R, even if it means putting him in an uncomfortable position

[Heywyre]

Yes GEL, this is something we are working on too. It wasn't just the cell bill or the visa bill that he was using to pay for his "habit" it was way more than that. He wouldn't even tell me about the simple things going on in his life. That has changed tremendously as he starts to see I am not going to abandon him (a BIG issue in his life being he was adopted plus he experienced that in other relationships)

It is amazing how excited I get just to hear him tell me something like what was in the mail today. That is his way of trying to be open and transparent, this is a HUGE leap for him.

And the more you and I talk, GEL, the more I am convinced he definitely has M/W complex. Even he is having a hard time denying it (although he does comment on me trying to analyze everything and try to "fix" things - like he doesn't? LOL)