Yours isn't the only valid POV, yet you post and argue at times like it is. Nor do you seem to give credence to the fact that two POVs can be equally valid.
I'm sure you know this, as you are an intelligent man. You just don't come off that way, and in the spirit of discussion, it can be quite alienating. That's my GD POV.
I pushed her. Whether or not I pushed her AWAY will be up to her.
Our experience has been that we need pushing, especially her. There's nothing that I've said to her that can't be treated as a volley, retreated from, and then pressure reapplied in another way, at another time, in another place.
There's a reason why I chose this Subject title for my thread. I am GOING to make mistakes here, and so is my wife. Mine will not be errors of omission, or of silence, or of complacency.
Yours isn't the only valid POV, yet you post and argue at times like it is.
Assumption on your part. I fully recognize other POVs. I don't have to argue in their favor though.
Nor do you seem to give credence to the fact that two POVs can be equally valid.
I think I have done this many times. I think different POV's can be applied to most situations in general. But fine tuning which one works best in light of the two personalities involved means one or the other will be preferable. I will argue for what I see as the best.
You just don't come off that way, and in the spirit of discussion, it can be quite alienating.
Maybe that's where you and I differ. I don't see this is so much a discussion forum but more a debate forum. There are NO right ideas. There are some entrenched ideas which IMO, need some shaking up. That means challenging the status quo, thinking outside the box, putting forth new ideas. I think I have tried to do just that.
Assumption on your part. I fully recognize other POVs. I don't have to argue in their favor though.
Observation, not assumption.
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I think I have done this many times. I think different POV's can be applied to most situations in general. But fine tuning which one works best in light of the two personalities involved means one or the other will be preferable. I will argue for what I see as the best.
I've got no problem with that. But when the person(s) declines, repeatedly, to argue? This is to what I was referring. This is where my observation comes from that you don't seem to recognize another's POV or preference as valid or worthy of respect... because all you do is continue to push and push and push and prod. Which, of course, is well within your right. I personally see it as disrespectful.
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Maybe that's where you and I differ. I don't see this is so much a discussion forum but more a debate forum. There are NO right ideas. There are some entrenched ideas which IMO, need some shaking up. That means challenging the status quo, thinking outside the box, putting forth new ideas. I think I have tried to do just that.
My use of the word discuss, for me, could be interchanged with debate... not necessarily verbal attack or warfare, however.
I'm glad you've taken it upon yourself to judge and decide that people have a certain type of idea you find needs to be shaken up. Yet if this is the case, then you just contradicted yourself when you said there are no right ideas.
To get back to the subject, has your wife read the e-mail yet and responded in any way??
FWIW whether it was a "mistake" or not is a moot point now and I am interested to hear how she will respond. Regardless of a response or lack of response you WILL learn something.
Also while I think having your wife, at the least, and family go with you to your dad's b-day would be best, I think it is absolutely the right thing to do!! Unless your family has ever been a problem for your marriage, I would never question your decision to go to your dad's 80th birthday.
What I will question is the $$ for a tummy tuck and bmw (?) and then lack of $$ for the whole family to visit your parents. But that is my own value system and I acknowledge that is my own personal bias.
Also there is an intensity and emotion in your past 2 (or 3) threads that I had not noticed before. Good for you.
Good luck
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
I've been following chocs thread and this seems apropritae it's from a web site about NLP. re: the email and peoples POV in communicating.
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The meaning of your communication lies in the response you get. This is one of the driving presuppositions in NLP. It forces you to take full responsibility for RESULTS in your communication. If you get a response you don't like, then you need to change something in your communication. Again, everyone is functioning through HIS or HER model of the world. If you communicate to everyone using your model only, you will not get the response you want. NLP is all about results—if one thing doesn't work, TRY SOMETHING ELSE. You aren't just communicating to hear yourself, are you? You communicate because you are looking for a response from another person. Keep shifting and changing the way you communicate until you get the response you want.
If I were in chocs shoes I would be looking for a great MC in my area and make an appointment asap, like he needs more advice at this point. What ever happens choc can handle it.
Thanks for the note. If you think you would find it helpful, I will post her responses to me, but I will apologize for my "rudeness" in advance if I don't respond to everyone's "takes" on it. I'm just plain worn out right now, and need some time away to work on things.
From: mrschoc.@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 8:31 AM To: Eyes, Chocolate Subject: Re: Are you avoiding me??
Choc.,
I honestly don't know what to say anymore. I avoid you around the house? That's not intentional. Maybe it's my avoid unpleasantness thing, I don't know. Maybe it's just easier for me. I have not noticed that our talk-while-in-the-car-line conversations have disappeared. You have been busy with things at work, I know that, and I have been eating lunch on the fly in the car. Maybe that's why we haven't had the talks.
I don't know why you are upset about me not wanting you to go to my dr. appointment with me. I went to the last one by myself, it's really no big deal. I didn't ask (D18). I thought she was asking because she didn't want to stay home, so I offered, I knew she wouldn't go. Choc., I am not the same person I used to be. Neither are you. My life feels different now, and I'm trying to cope with these changes. People change over time, and we are no different. I am in a place right now, where I feel I am growing as a person and trying to accept certain changes in my life. I have been a stay at home mom for a lot of years. And I wouldn't have traded it for the world. But now, I'm starting a new chapter in my life. I'm not just Mrs. Choc. - wife and mother anymore. I have a new career (one which is not easy, even if you might think it is). I'm trying to get that started. I'm trying to be more independent. I'm really trying to grow as an adult. I feel like I have depended on people for a long time, and now I have to be my own person. I lived with my parents until we got married, then lived with you. I don't feel like I ever had my independence. And now I'm 46 and I still in some ways feel like a child. So, in some small way, maybe that is why I want to go to the dr. by myself.
If I'm quiet lately, it's because I have a lot on my mind. I internalize and try to fix things in my own brain. Maybe this is what you are seeing. When we went to lunch, I told you I don't know how I feel. I'm searching my heart right now, and I don't have any answers. Believe me, if I did I would tell you. The last thing I want is to torture you with silence. We have had such a non-marriage relationship for so long, that I just don't know how I feel anymore. I've already agreed to see a MC, which as you know is something I don't agree with, but I'm doing it. I honestly cannot tell you what's in my heart right now, and I'm not going to say something to just make you feel better. That's not fair to you. We've been together for a long time, and have 4 kids together. We have a history and a familiarity and sense of family together. But, unfortunately we let the marriage part slip for a lot of years and just became mom and dad, not Choc. and Mrs. Choc., husband and wife AND mom and dad. I can't predict whether we can get the husband and wife thing back again, it's been a very long time. We have not been good at balancing things, be it having fun, happiness or togetherness. I just feel a need to be happy right now and enjoy my life. I've seen (more times than I wish) that life is too short to always carry a sense of sadness or unhappiness in your heart. I'm sure you want the same. We haven't had that in a long time.
I wish so bad I could just say "hey everything is going to be just fine", but I can't. And this hurts me to not be able to just fix it. But like I said at lunch, we have done this so many times, and we always come back to this same place, that I CAN'T do this again. Emotionally this has drained me over the years. I'm trying to be very careful with my words and my thoughts, because IF we fix this, this will be the last time. If this happens again, I honestly cannot do it.
I can't give you any answers before you go to Chicago. This is a situation we BOTH created (or allowed to happen). It is important to me to try to figure out if there is something to save. I'm not just giving in, like I said earlier, we owe it to the kids to figure this out, and they are EXTREMELY important to me.
I'm sorry this is so long, but this is what's in my heart. I'll talk to you when I get back from the dr.
Something here really jumped out at me: "And now I'm 46 and I still in some ways feel like a child. So, in some small way, maybe that is why I want to go to the dr. by myself."
My father died a couple of years ago, a couple of years after my parents' 50th wedding anniversary. One of the most important things to my mother in their M was that my father "let her grow up." This required a lot of change in their R, a lot of stretching, and I expect a lot of working through some difficult times. I expect this happened in her 40s too. It is something that was very much a part of the deep and lasting love they shared.
So, I urge you to really absorb her wish to grow up and validate it if you get the chance. You might even take a good deal of comfort in it. That is a big part of why she needs space -- to grow up and find herself as a healthy, vibrant, independent, happy woman. OM is perhaps a MEANS to get that space from you, but he is not the END of the space. So, OM is just a tool. (Pun intended.)
Choc, I really still think W is going to come around. And, once she is really invested in working to find a good M with you again, there will be no stopping you. You have GREAT instincts for that act of the play.
I'm trying to be very careful with my words and my thoughts, because IF we fix this, this will be the last time. If this happens again, I honestly cannot do it.
Boy oh boy, does this sound familiar or what?
Listen to what she is saying Choc. She is telling you she is willing to give it another try. She is telling you she will go for counselling. She is telling you there are no promises or expectations but she is willing to make a go of it for the sake of the children, your longterm R and for you BOTH.
Don't blow it - LISTEN to her!!!
Heywyre
M - 57 H - 65 1st A-bomb - Nov 27/02 2nd A-bomb - Dec 13/06 together 21 years *************************** Insanity is doing something over and over and expecting different results (Albert Einstein)
