I read the link -- good stuff. The problem that I'm having applying it in my situation was exemplified by your comment of "for every step they take toward you, only take 1/2 a step back toward them."
I get that.
I can do that.
I just need my wife to take 1/2 a step.Something. Not to be where I am, and not to be all wordy about it (she wouldn't be), but some simple gesture of caring, if not about me than at least about the future of our marriage.
Unless I'm missing something, I just haven't seen it since our lunch together. She only called me back today because she wanted to relieve her guilty conscience for hanging up on me so abruptly, who knows, maybe to take (or make) call from OM (although I can't figure out how to do it on her phone, there MUST be a way to delete "Recent Calls", because even my call to her today is not on there anymore).
I am making sure that my wife sees me social, funny, charming, "looking good and smelling good" around others, esp. our kids these days. That I will continue to do. But my one-on-one happiness and signs of caring toward her, my acting "as if," I simply can't do it anymore. Not without SOMETHING, however small, from her.
Well, the old Choc. would have stewed in his resentment, and I'm still not sure I'm doing the right thing. Somewhere along the line I've lost the courage of my convictions when it comes to matters of the heart ("Do this, she'll love it!" "DON'T do that, you'll be SMOTHERING her!").
But I'm going with my instincts nevertheless.
If I go down, it's going to be swinging. I will NOT go quietly.
I just sent my wife the following e-mail:
From: Eyes, Chocolate Sent: Wed 5/23/2007 5:39 AM To: Subject: Are you avoiding me??
Susan,
I honestly don't know how we can work on our marriage if you avoid me.
Since our lunch last week, all I have felt from you is further pulling away. You never call me unless it's to ask me something specific, and you seem to cut my calls to you short. I miss our daily talk-while-you're-in-the-car-line conversations. As bad as things got between us, we always made time for those.
You avoid me around the house, even though I'm making good efforts at being a pleasant person to be around (I need this for my future anyway).
You didn't even want me to go to your doctor appointment with you, which you ALWAYS used to like and appreciate. You obviously wanted company, too, because you asked (D18) to go. I'm certainly not going to get you into some deep relationship talk in Dr. Nipandtuck's waiting room, so what's the point of me not going with you? I thought about just showing up anyway, to support you, but was afraid you would feel "smothered," because you want "space."
We don't have to have deep relationship talks (we can do that with a MC), but I do think we need to talk. How can we rebuild any closeness with each other if we're talking LESS than before, and before was awful?
I would like to leave for Chicago knowing that, as difficult as this is going to be and as much as neither one of us can predict where it's going, that it's IMPORTANT to you. I'm not asking for your affection, and I'm not asking for some proclamation of how you feel about me. (Frankly, I think I already know the answer anyway; I've come to grips with that, and I'm OK with it.)
What I DO hope you can find some way to communicate is "I don't have feelings for you anymore, Paul, but our marriage is important to me, and I'm willing to work on trying to get them back. I dont know if we can, but I would LIKE to get them back. This (fill in the blank) is what I need from you to help me do that." Maybe it's "I need us to talk more, but not R (Relationship) talks." or "I need us to be together, having fun as a family more." Or whatever.
Instead, what I'm "hearing" from you is "I already don't think this is going to work. I don't have feelings for you anymore, and rather than put myself back in a place emotionally where I take the risk of hurting you -- and myself -- again, I'd rather just keep my distance."
Please call me, and tell me if I'm wrong, or write me back if that's easier for you. Susan, I thought we agreed to work on this, together, but I don't even feel any "together" anymore.
I warned you I was going to tie to a chair and tape your mouth shut. Your no longer allowed to send emails to your W, without prior approval. Seriously, if you have to express yourself, then compose emails but do not send them. Save them someplace for posterity.
LISTEN to OT. Sheesh. Listen to SG. You have to lay off the scrutiny and observation and VIBING your wife with inspecting her every move. That is not leading behavior. Its reactive. Its not confidEnt. Its reactive
Your wife juiced you. She got your attention. You lied to her, you do get jealous. She knows you care about her now.
The OM IS NOT AS GOOD AS YOU. You do not say this. You prove it with your actions. IF you feel threatened by him, she will wonder why. IF you think he is, then why shouldnt she? She will need to find out why. She will juice you more. FORGET HIM.
Your focus on OM is not AS IFFING. Your wife has not pushed you away hard. She is still there. She knows she needs to let her emotions settle. Let her. Its not in your control. If you send her another email like the one you just did, your going to see what a real push looks like. Knowing what you want, seeing it in YOUR head, and moving towards that, is what will prove and manifest confidEnce. Give your wife space. Get out of the house. Go do stuff. Take your laptop to starbucks and post here. Go to a batting cage. Go to a book store and read. anything. She IS telling you part of what she needs.
Your email just did exactly what you said you wouldnt do in the email.
UMMM.
Choco, I know where your coming from. It hurts. That pain is yours and only yours to deal with. Its not her problem. Remember what MR.MOJO said? Its not reasonable to seek comfort from the person hurting you.
Suck it up IRL. Save your pain and hurt for here. You werent able to hear us before, about taking action, because of your emotions. Dont keep making that mistake. If you cant get a grip on yourself, admit that, and take steps to deal with that.
I was EXACTLY where you are, emotionally-speaking, almost about 12 months ago to the day. And I sent my wife plenty of emails just like your latest one.
Didn't work.
What did work, though, was me backing right off, me getting on with my own sh!t, and me letting her figure out things for herself.
Which she did. Or at least she *is*.
Just like you're doing right now, I spent waaay too much time willing her to answer questions that she didn't even know how to answer.
Sure, write her emails, letters, poetry, whatever. Just make sure you burn 'em instead of sending them. She knows *exactly* how you feel without you needing to keep telling her.
Carry on doing what you're doing and she'll run even faster.
Don't send her emails like this!!! You really should read tough love by Dr. Dobson. He actually has an email prepared that your could have sent to your wife. When you have a WAS and the left behind spouse is the HD partner, it is YOUR actions that will determine the future of the marriage, NOT HERS. Dobson wants you to show your spouse that even though you love them, that YOUR life will go on WITHOUT her, that YOU are a strong person, that YOU are not needy. You need to show nothing but strength. Set your boundries. Effectively, you are now single again. Treat her as if the two of you had just met for the first time, you would expect nothing of her, while putting forth you best efforts to be attractive to her.
Read his book. At this point, any chance to save what you have left is ENTIRELY up to how you REACT. In order to to have any chance at winning her back, you have to love her enough to let her go.
To be honest (and I know I'm in a bit of a "fog" right now), this all seems like just so much bullchit to me. All this "FOO" stuff, and "self-soothing," and "placating" and "enmeshment" and "leading behavior" and "acting as-if."
Good lord, did marriages not ever survive before self-help books???
I am NOT going to send her mushy song lyrics, I'm NOT going to beg her to love me, and I'm NOT going to beg her to even tell me how she feels about me. But I am also NOT going to not call her on her bullcrap when she pulls it, and I'm not going to sit idly by while she does NOTHING to even take the first baby steps to try and save our marriage.
If I'm gonna go, I'm not gonna go quietly.
She will know how I feel, she will be reminded of some of the realities that she's not competently consisdering right now, but needs to (like do some research on the pain and financial pain of divorce, for example), and then she will be left to make her own decisions. While she does that, I will do my best to be a better person, get my house (literally) in order, my yard in order, my body in order, and my leadership role within my family in order. I will work on ME.
But I'm also going to make my requests known of what I expect from HER, which I think are actually very modest, don't you?
Quote:
Hey! Lama! How about a little somethin', y'know, for the EFFORT." (Carl Spackler, "Caddyshack")
I don't deny pretty much all of what you are saying is true, however, she really doesn't care about any of it (right now) because she is hurting/thinking, doing whatever she is doing
Had someone told me when I got married that this was what I would have to endure regarding "for better or for worse" I would have seriously had to take a step back. But it is what it is and I am in this to the bitter end
Stop feeling sorry for yourself, it won't get you anywhere and it won't make a damn to how she is feeling right now. All you are doing is pushing her away further and further. I was where you are not all that long ago and the best thing I ever did was to back off, take back my power and start living for ME.
If you truly want to save your M/R - BACK OFF (and DON'T send any more emails!!)
Heywyre
M - 57 H - 65 1st A-bomb - Nov 27/02 2nd A-bomb - Dec 13/06 together 21 years *************************** Insanity is doing something over and over and expecting different results (Albert Einstein)
We don't have to have deep relationship talks (we can do that with a MC), but I do think we need to talk. How can we rebuild any closeness with each other if we're talking LESS than before, and before was awful?
your having a deep R talk about not having a deep R talk.
WORDS kill feelings. its that simple.
Choco, I really truly understand what you are going thru. Im not trying to criticize you. Look at it more along the lines of 'Hey stupid, dont piss on the electic fence.' I know it *seems* to make sense to you to try honestly ask her to stop hurting your feelings.
I could go thru your email and point out all the placating and supplicating you are doing in it, if you want me too. If it will help you I will.
To sum up, if you are asking-- you are supplicating. If you are trying to couch the words 'correctly' or 'nicely' you are placating. Sit still, work on you, be proud of you, forgit OM.
Mrs. Choc. and I not showing -- and communicating -- our feelings to each other is what got us into this mess.
And the few times we did -- about once every 3-4 years -- the mistake we made was in letting it die, and not communicating our hurt and our anger with each other, and instead stewing in resentment.
Not facing those things, head-on, is what got us here. And for 3 years, you all told me to STOP AVOIDING all that unpleasantness, and DEAL WITH IT. To "LET HER KNOW!"
All these theories say to "let them know ONCE," and then back off. I've never shared with you all here very much detail, at all, about my wife's an my prior "The Talk"s and "bombs." They all had one thing in common, and it was NOT the lack of initial confrontation.
It was the lack of not enforcing the boundary, once it was established.
I may have not done this perfectly, but I'm trying to avoid our mistakes of the past. I saw the same old scenes starting to be played out again, and me, sitting there stewing in resentment. I'm NOT going down that road again!!!
This may not work, but if I err on any given day, it will be -- as the great business book "Built to Last" calls the attribute of great companies -- a "bias to action."
