Piecing, 2 steps forward, one back, or more?

[25yearsmlc]

jdk,

thanks. I swear to you, that in every other major decision of my life, I've been decisive. Not impulsive, but usually clear about what factors to consider, which one is most moral or right, most advantageous for the situation, etc. And I don't look back if I know I've made the choice wisely. I cannot understand my confusion in a way. I mean, I feel like I'm on a giant pendulum about this whole thing. h has not said enough of what I need to hear, or done enough of what he needs to do--actually other than being nice, h hasn't "done" anything differently and so I do fear that I'm being foolish to go up there.

IF he could just stay humbled a bit, "aware" of what he is missing now and be grateful as heck that we are even willing to share our lives with him after such disappointing choices...so that the future CAN be different than what we've had the past 2 years.

Also, our son (21 next month) is clearly annoyed and angry at h. Even more than that, I don't think he likes his dad. This kills me and would really kill H. H has a dad who deeply disappointed him, although there is still love and some laughs together. But h spends as average of 3-4 days every Other year, with his dad....and I suspect he's heading the same way with our son. My family, warts and all, DOES communicate frequently ( 3 times a week or more, for my sisters and mom) so it's really weird to me. And scary. What if h thinks that 's fine? Oh and btw, h also says things your w says, that bug the crap out of me...."Kids are resilient" "will be fine" etc blah blah blah.

Well, I am hoping time will give me clarity. H is really stupid to let things go on though, after a fight. I HATE the silence on his end when he is the one who should be reassuring ME....instead, the second I complain about the ENORMOUS sacrifice he is expecting, he gets mad at me...OMG, that's when I think I'm insane to even be married to him. Okay, I'll try harder to cool off. Thing about divorce OR staying in this marriage, (like you I guess) is that either way, I have to do some more major life changes FOR him....
sorry to just vent. God help me to find and feel the love again.
j-

[Cinderellaman]

25yearsmlc,

WOW - I've been reading your posts and you thinking that you are going through a MLC of your own....the last sentence you wrote in your last post struck me - "God help me to find and FEEL the love again".............so it is possible for love to just be 'out of sight'.....this is what we have all been saying over at the Midlife crisis forum......they don't feel it, they are in another 'world'.....;

I hope you find it again and lead the life you wish to lead....in the meantime I am very intrigued by your posts ! Thank you for sharing them with us all !!!

Take care !!! xxx

[scout332]

25yMLC,

I just found your post and thought I would seek some guidance. I am a physician (small town internist). Have been married 13 years last week--both of us are 39. (find me at MLC with young personal trainer).

I probably like your husband work long hours--feel that you have to in this line of work. About 4 months ago get ILYBNILWU from my wife. She says everything has always been about me and my career. I have always felt I only was working like I did to get my family ahead. She was primary caretaker of our 3 Kids-9, 6, &5. She started a part-time job last fall teaching nursing at local community college. I know we didn't have great marriage, but always thought it would get better when many pressures lifted.

Now she has feelings for this 24yo personal trainer with whom she has worked out for 14 months. He is reason she is happy again. I have read DB and DR. Am wading through her MLC. Some advice from the "other side" might be helpful to me.

Thanks,
Scout

[25yearsmlc]

Scout,

how long have you been an MD and was your wife there for the whole training schooling "shebang"? I was there for the whole prolonged arduous ordeal. Our first child was 8 WEEKS old when H began med school at the age of 30, just after 3 years of a veterinary practice. (I married h while he was in veterinary school and I was in college---way too young). In his defense, I don't think either of us knew what we were getting into by him going to med school. I was in law school when "we" decided for him to go ahead and apply to med school BUT didn't know that I was pregnant and sure didn't know what was to come.

So, assuming your wife was there for the "crappy" part of being a doctor's wife, this means a couple things to me. Get ready for some slapping, okay? I mean, no offense, but SINCE YOU ASKED...

Being married to a doctor of medicine while they are "becoming" doctors, means that for every night you were in hospital/on call, She fed and bathed the kids without help, read to them and tucked them in by herself, and went ALONE, to an empty bed...for YEARS... When YOUR kids were sick, chances are it was HER caring for them...


Your workload and call schedule impacted others so much, but the focus was on YOU and YOUR hours and how hard YOU worked, and you were probably praised for it...and no one thought to acknowledge your wife's contribution or how little nourishment she got from the R. More like "poor H, he sure works a lot...."

It also means that when you were home at night, you were very likely to be too tired to be interested in her day, or even very agreeable, too tired to help much in the home or with the kids, WHILE they got to watch you fall asleep b/c YOU work hard, and it often meant sex was nil, and or foreplay was limited or rushed. Romance? What's that? Even for the man who IS a romantic (and my h was actually) there is so much pressure that invades the brain even when you are home or on vacation....more to learn, trying to please the staff, the patient, not get sued, etc. ALL affecting everyone. Looking at your watch during or right after ML, being blatantly pre-occupied at the kids' birthday parties, IF he got that time off at all.
Planning a "date" just wasn't ever done by my h, once he entered the med profession. It is the most demanding UNRELENTING career i can think of AND is a career that pretty much involves/affects EVERY person in the family. 9 Thanksgivings in a row, on call, and not home, so my kids actually did not know that it was a holiday except they had no school.

Every social situation you enter as a couple leads to HER being asked what field YOU are in and where YOU work....and or, a comment gets made about how "lucky" she is, b/c you must earn a lot of money... Occasional Insinuations about her marrying you b/c you are a doctor are sometimes made as well... And If she complains about your hours to others she is seen as ungrateful or bitter, and you, the doctor, get the sympathetic look. Also, very little is asked of her about HER interests or achievements as she is seen as an accessory to YOU...and with the nature of your career, she probably HAS had to put her interests aside, or behind yours. Otherwise, who will care for the kids? The house? The car? The bills? HER dreams? Her public accolade? Her work? Her contribution to the world, that gets shoved aside b/c how can it compete with your work? How can a wife compete with a cancer patient? We can't. Other's needs will always be more immediate than ours.

In my case, h would go out of his way to impress his staff or at least not rock the boat or irritate anyone and would rather inconvenience me/us than them. Example: when d18 was born, H was in med school and I worked full time. After one night in the hospital, I was to be discharged with our baby girl on a Friday morning and h was to pick me up that morning. I got discharged @ 8:30 am but h didn't show up to pick me up until 5 pm. No phone calls to me telling me to stay IN the hospital, or to call someone else to take me home or to call a cab or something, other than just wait for h...
I didn't get served lunch and I had a newborn, not to mention our s3 was still at a sitters....why? Because h felt it was more important to not miss another day, since he had missed school while I was giving birth. He didn't even ask for the day off, or early out to pick me up. Instead of a beautiful memory of bringing home our first daughter, I still feel humiliated that I was alone with the baby waiting for 8-9 hours in a hospital with my suitcase all packed...and a nurse giving me some of her lunch so I wouldn't be starved. (I didn't have my purse with me) I asked him to take some time off the next week but he didn't AND he was on call that Monday. I had a 5 day old baby, a 3 year old and btw, had herniated a disk during the 8th month of pregnancy...well, I would bet a $1000 that the staff on duty back then, doesn't remember my husband's name or face, let alone that h was soooo hard working that he worked at the hospital instead of going home.

Yes I can say I've let it go, but I sure do recall how I felt so devalued. H apologized about a year ago, in a way. He said something like he would do things differently now...but I wonder. I cannot seem to compete with his craving for mentors and their approval. Seems he would rather see admiration or devotion in the eyes of his patients, than his own wife's eyes, or the eyes of our children. None of our children wants to be a physician.

Having children totally changed MY life and career choices. In part, this was b/c h was not available to "cover" for me if I worked late and I knew that would always mean a nanny or some other "make shift" arrangement would have to occur. I chose jobs that didn't require long hours of me, and taking lateral transfers, or changing fields so I could be home at night for the kids, knowing h would never be. I have no regrets about spending time with the kids, but the more h worked, the more I felt the need to be home. And as it turns out, the more h felt financial pressure to compensate, although we were making enough money in 99% of people's cases. Only h feels the need for more money, more prestige, more whatever it is.

When h worked late he always seemed "surprised" and never accurately predicted his schedule. I see that this was b/c he wanted to avoid conflict so he'd tell me he was "on his way" only to leave the hospital an hour later, or that he "thought he would be off that day" only to be on call...IF he had simply been realistic maybe I'd have sighed, but it was the chronic BSing that bugged me. By denying he was gone a lot and pretending his hours were just fine, I was invalidated and things were left unsaid...I guess i wish I believed he was just a bit grateful to me for sticking it out so long. I also wish I had not "waited" for h to "get it" one day, and just divorced him years ago, or made other adjustments. He'd romance me just enough to keep me in the M...the minimum amount of effort in THIS area of his life, and the max in his career area. H's best years, best efforts and best qualities were all given to his job. We, his family, got the left overs and scraps.

Since medical school was a choice h made after we married, I can look and compare his veterinary career to his human medicine career. I can also compare it to my legal career and my brothers, who are also lawyers. BTW, h does make considerably more money now. And having money is definitely better than not having it. I am proud of his work b/c he does improve his patient's lives and is a good doctor.
But I was proud of him before, and I don't care all that much about money. It wasn't a choice between "wealth" and "poverty". Just a choice between modest life style with great quantity of great quality of life, versus upper class life style with little or no time together....I'll take the first choice ANY time, and never once in our M did I wish that H would work harder, or more, or take more call or earn more money. I know a few doctor wives who did this, so I'm glad to Not count myself as one of them.

I've never been that worried about money and I felt an economic life style of the
middle class life was fine. I love the theater, various art forms, the outdoors, travelling, etc. But I have explored them for the most part, without h. For a married woman, I have been alone a lot, and the kids have had phone based relationships with their father for their whole lives. H always seemed to be putting off "real life" or time with the family, until after the next position, a higher salary, diff title, new job, etc. Now our 2nd child is leaving the nest and h MAY be awakening to the reality that the first 2 of our 3 kids are NOT close to him. And the time as a family of 5, is over now, never to be re-claimed.

Yes, his work is important and his career choice is well regarded by the public. God knows h does work hard. But as a woman, as a wife, best friend, and as a mother, my needs for a man, a husband, my best friend's company, and a co-parent for our children, have ALL gone unmet for literally decades. In short, the medical profession as h's career choice, for me, and for our children, was not worth it. And I have a VERY hard time believing that h's choices were FOR our family, though he claims that it was. He may even believe it himself, b/c otherwise he'd be forced to realize that his career is much more immediately rewarding than building on family R's. New titles, accolades, a bonus, promotion, etc. are all "fast food for the starving ego" (from the book "The Heart of a Father", I think) whereas fathering is like depositing a dollar a day into an account and only after years, can you see the effect of the "compounding interest" in your loving relationships.


I am sorry to say all this and even sorrier to feel most of it. Hope this helps a bit.

[optimist2004]

J-

I've had a hard time sticking around the boards lately. I come to browse occasionally, but my motivation to catch anyone up on my sitch is nil. I just read through your thread here and am feeling the heat of your anger, though!!

The briefest update: H is arriving on leave before transfering to his new unit (three hours away from where I am) in a month. We'll find out then if he will be staying at that new unit for 3 years, or if he'll be transfering out quickly for a promotion. Either way, I anticipate some kind of foot dragging when it comes to S and I relocating to be with him. All signs point to him wanting to remain a "devoted" satellite husband indefinately.

Your last post about H's career choices hit close to home for me as well. My H doesn't get doctor's pay or anything, but more than half of our short marriage (6.5 yrs) has been lived in separate states. That includes more than half of our S's life at this point too. And what gets me is that I definately see that my H is not totally onboard with living together again. I told him again in a recent phone call that I wasn't doing this long distance M thing beyond his next transfer. It seems like I am constantly in a state of waiting to tell H this, telling him this, or reminding him of this. When I do verbalize it to him (not as an ultimatum, but just a statement of my expectations/needs) he just says blandly, "I know," or nothing at all.

Last time I talked to him I mentioned to him again, that it just didn't seem like he wanted us to be together in the same place again. He said, "no, no" he wanted that too, but wasn't enthusiastic at all about it. About an hour later I said something about "when we're living together again..." and he jumped in with "what if I don't want that." I very calmly said, "then we shouldn't be married." To which he had nothing to say.

It frustrates me. But not like it used to. I guess, I'm at the end of the line with him, and feel like I am OK to move on without him if he can't step up. I know to most people my H looks like a guy who just wants to have his freedom, run around with god knows who, and keep his claim on his wife and kid. But, you'd have to meet him to understand exactly how much of a recluse he is. H probably has had a one night stand, or two, or... I don't even care at this point. I doubt he's had an EA of any kind, because he's so unattached. And with my H, an EA would be a far, far greater violation of our R...ehhh, I don't even want to think about that.

I recently confided in a long-time friend about a phone convo I had with H when he called me up very, very drunk from outside a bar. First of all, it's only the second time H has ever called me because he's had a rough day and just wanted someone to talk to. That's never been our R, so I'm glad we're making some progress there. But, in the four hours that I talked to him (until he was nearly sober again) he unloaded a lot of sexual issues he has had (with me and otherwise) for his entire adult life. It felt as if he was trying to admit some PAs he's had since we've been apart-hell, maybe since we've been married. And I kept telling him that I'd rather not even know. I mean, seriously, I've put so much of his crap behind me, a PA, especially if it wasn't long-term, seems like less than a banana peal at the bottom of the bag. But he kept pushing it, like he was testing the waters, "how would you feel if I told you...would you be angry if you found out...?" without ever coming out and saying he did anything. I kept pushing him back saying, "I don't even want to hear it, what does it matter. No one would believe me if I told them you'd been faithful for the past 3 years apart, so just let it go." Then he got offended saying "don't you think I have any self control?" blah, blah, blah. And to top that all off, the convo kept turning back to how much he wanted to have another child, and as soon as possible. He's either crazy insane, or talking without filters. Considering how drunk he was, I'm positive of the latter, but that doesn't rule out the former.

Anyway when I told my friend about this, she was appalled. But I told her, it really didn't bother me that much. She said I was in denial, so used to repressing all my emotions about my sitch. Maybe she's right. H did bring up a good point-that if it didn't matter if he'd slept with anyone since we'd been separated, why was I so adimant that I didn't want to hear about it. And my friend agreed with that point. Although we're both a little perplexed about why H would bring up the point in the first place. (Seriously, my H is a manipulative little instigator, especially after having celebrated the end of a month of back breaking sea trials with who knows how many shots.)

It would bother me to hear about H sleeping with someone else. But intellectually, I can brush it aside-atleast anything that took place in the past, especially while we were separated and not speaking. So I guess, by not hearing about it, I save myself the trouble of sorting through useless emotions.

Now that I think about it, H may have also been fishing for a little info from my end, because he asked about some rumors that apparently had been floating around about the people who I was spending time with during our break up. Now I'm just processing outloud....

God, I know he loves me. I know he'll never love anyone the same. I know he'll do everything he can to take care of S and I (financially) until the day he dies, and even then he's crossed teh Ts and dotted all the Is on his life insurance policy. But love is not enough. He's got to be able to take care of our emotional needs as well. He's got to BE with us, physically.

H has reservations about living together again because he's naturally averse to sharing his life with anyone. I don't know if his fears will disolve once we are together and I can show him my new and improved coping skills. Or if his fears will be realized and our next home will melt down just like our last one. But either way I'm pretty sure we are going to be living together again soon, because he does not seem to be willing to call me on my stipulation (just another word for ultimatum, I suppose) that we live together or not be married (way to avoid the word "divorce"). It may last for the rest of our lives, or it may last 6 months. But I have a deep and driving need to get on with it.

So, there's my disorganized hijack of your thread, J. If I tried to gather my thoughts, or even spell check "instigator" I would never have gotten this much down.

About your anger...you do seem to have some of that. Let's be angry for a moment. Why deny it. Let's see if we can difuse some of it. Or lets just enjoy the feeling of letting it rip.

I'll start...What f*cking loser treats his family like they come absolutely last in the line of "things to consider before making major life decisions"? What jack*ss puts his life partner and own children up on a shelf like they don't freaking count until they're 35 or 40 (i.e. when he can retire with his nest egg that was "all for them") Who passes up on their children's childhood for a f*cking one room apartment (or metal rack, as the case may be) so they can have the space they need to pursue more important things? Who's H are we talking about here?

[scout332]

Thank you for the help. I am not averse to a little "slapping" if it will help fix my marriage.

More of our sitch--My wife and I met as undergrads at Ohio State. We were friends, but dating others. It was end of my 2nd year of med school that relationship started to change. We were on/off as tried to get through friends-to-lovers barrier. Got engaged on Graduation Day and married at end of my intern year. She entered law school while I was in residency (she was a nurse), but dropped out as just couldn't live the 16-20 hour a day at the library life (law school is much harder than med school).

Soon after I started in practice, we started family. Unfortunately, I joined someone single and obsessed with work in practice. Our recollection of 1st child's birth is fight over the telephone with boss over when/how much time I expected to be off. Our Daughter was an awful baby and my wife had to do everything. However, we decided that we couldn't live like that and left that practice when D was 1 to move to our present location. Unfortunately, everyone knows me here and she is the doctor's wife.

You are right about the hours and coming home expecting that I would have the break. You are also right about sex life.

Could go through much more (and will), but I have to go make rounds. If you could offer advice as to how to get me to make my wife understand I want everything to work, would appreciate.

[scout332]

Have a break in the schedule so wanted to pick up where I left off this AM. I have heard a lot that everything we have done has been for my dreams. Unfortunately, the financial benefits haven't really come in yet. First med school debt then practice buy-ins, and now buying office building have made it seem like we'll never get ahead. I know this adds to her stress. However I also don't know how we could get out. This is the bad part of medicine--you can't really get ahead til you are almost 50. I definitely do not want any of my children to live this life. I was always the person who would take the gap in the call schedule to make sure everything stayed smooth--always have been told that I put that ahead of family. It is part of the training, and hard to not do so.

I am definitely not romantic but have been trying to plan dates and arranging child care (even closing office to cover for her work). You discussed the sex life in your post. Once things started downhill, she had no desire and led to lot of fights about it. Sex was never satisfying for her, and ultimately I got ED issues. She now says that made her feel unloved and undesirable. I got depressed at start of year and am now on meds.

In the past year my wife has lost 80 pounds. She never felt she had the ability to exercise after children and subsequently got up to 225 lbs on 5'2" height. She now feels that the trainer is the man that made her happy again. I can't argue with that, but I feel I have changed a lot to made her succeed. Now that she has lost the weight, she is focused on looking perfect. I have to constantly tell her she looks great and doesn't look 40. She is focused on getting to goal weight, so she can get a tummy tuck and breast lift. I'm not against any of this.

I am trying to be the best husband I can be, but I don't feel I'm getting anywhere. I understand at least some of my problems in the past. What I don't see is that she has any desire to move beyond the past. She is focused on what she has "lost out" on. Slap me some more, but give me suggestions to help me get us back to "happily married" again. That is what I want most right now.

[25yearsmlc]

Scout,

I'll post more later. Just wanted to note your comment about law school being harder than med school. I disagree, although it's not a big deal. My one issue was that I was married while in law school and THAT was difficult. But in terms of volume and depth of information, med school was far harder from where I sat....same with veterinary school except in med school you have even more clinic hours/hospital call. So med school was EASILY more than a 40 hour week while IN school (so add to those hours, the homework) whereas law school was never more than 18 hours of class, total, a week....and mostly, only one exam per class, per semester. IF your wife wasn't able to stay in or chose not to, don't make it into something where she has to justify her "failure" vs. your success by claiming it was harder for her... I will say that there are different areas of the brain used, although maybe spotting legal issues is like the differentials you might use.

Maybe being a lawyer just wasn't the thing for her. No shame in that.

Anyhow, details later. Don't recall if I asked you where your thread was, so where is it?
j-

[scout332]

My thread is "MLC with young personal trainer".

BTW, I would never consider her dropping out of law school a failure. It was just not the right time of her life to be a student.

[25yearsmlc]

Scout,

I'll check out your post. Um, VERY interesting comment about not really getting the bucks until your 50's. H always felt "behind" whatever measurement he'd use for our finances. Like he was in a race and falling behind but I saw it differently. I've qualified as a financial planner so I'm not an idiot about money, but have much less fear of running out, than h. Of course, maybe it's a good thing that we feel and approach it differently.

The nature of your work and its' demands on you AND others, makes it an easy target for those who feel they've underachieved. In M's to doctors (or trial lawyers for that matter) It is almost a guarantee that the spouse will feel neglected unless either he/she is Very independent with their own passions/careers OR the MD is consciously attentive to his/her spouse. Both have to be very secure in themselves AND the R. That takes time. You know, the grass is greener on the side that gets watered...and time is in short supply with your field. Don't count on the money making such a difference in happiness. For some of us, TIME together is the real love language and for ME, if h gets more time off and earns the same OR less (that's right, "LESS") I say that is great. There's a great book on values and money called "Your Money or Your Life" and it speaks to this balancing act. My h and some other men seem to overestimate the value of money to THEIR FAMILIES...I know my d18 wishes h had stayed here for her last 2 years at home, MUCH MUCH MORE than she cares about the size of our 401k.

Also interesting about the wieght loss. Did she blame you for her being overweight, only to credit the trainer for now saving her? I will say that her weight gain might have reflected depression in her. It's a good thing that you are here. And despite all my comments, I have a lot of respect for your jobs. You DO work your butts off to get where you are, and frankly, you Deserve a good compensation package. But then, so does your family, if you kwim. Take care, keep on keeping on.
j-