Well, the Chit's About to Hit the Fan, Folks...

[Stigmata]

Choco,

It's going to be a bumpy ride. You are now seeing things with fresh eyes.

It is paramount that you do not go from indifferent resentful Choco to smothering Choco in one furious push.

She spoke to OM for 38 minutes and to you only 2. You are now taking tallies. Do you see that keeping this kind of track wasn't even on your radar a few days ago?

This disparity has been going on for an x amount of time. Time enough for it to be a somewhat entrenched pattern.

STOP fixating on just how much the disparity is. Accept it. Own your part in it. That W is just being a flawed human who likes to have attention from someone fun once in a while and not some dark resentful cloud. Your job is to get back to the fun attention-giving guy you were at the start of your R without keeping score on if it's working on your W or not.

The flower thing is well-intended but I would suggest no more of this. Giving her favors on non-special days (like your anniversary) is pursuing and Mrs. Choc is undoubtedly starting to feel nervous as to what this new attention represents.

What does he know? Think?

You now know the score. She's deleting texts and you know there are a large number of them sent/received. Do not dwell.

She will not see your gestures of love when she is working out of a place of fear. OT is right. You can't start R moving forward convos in this dynamic.

Worst case, if it's an A it will burn out. They never last very long anyway. I am not going to tell you it is or it isn't or how far it's gone. Impossible. I just know the signs (as do others here) and the signs are not good.

Take heart, friend. Grabbing your shoulders and squeezing. The good news is you've awakened and are a fighter. The good news is that if there is something going on, you have just shortened the length of it by making it very uncomfortable for them both.

I agree with NOPkins, BF, others. I have not delved into other forums but ignoring it will only make your life miserable while letting the pressure off.

Every corner where there is deception you need to be there calmly.

I would also suggest you start covering your a$$ financially in the event a worst case scenario is a dealbreaker.

You cannot control what happens now with your W. There is always a way to thrwart you, just as Trying to Hold On has found with her H running to the library to set up a new email account.

People turn into aliens and you must remember they are enslaved by their brain chemicals.

At the point you decide you have enough evidence that there is something improper about the phone/text usage and you are paying for it. I would consider at that point taking Mrs. Choc by the hand, going down to the cell phone shop, and explaining to her and the Sprint rep or whomever that she is going to get her own cell phone account, minutes, and that you will not be further disrespected by paying for her disrespectful and deceitful (deleting texts if she has not done so regularly prior, for example) behavior.

Hi, Mr. Sprint rep, my wife here needs her own plan so she can continue racking up charges comunicating with another man I barely (or maybe don't even?) know. Great. How many minutes/text allowances do you think you'll need, honey?

Anyway, just an example of how to show that you will not tolerate this lying down if it should reach the point where you have the evidence you require.

Hang in there, Choco. They only just rang the first round bell and there are gonna be some nasty haymakers coming at you. Be strong. Fight for your wife, if not for your own control over your own future destiny with or without her.

-Stigmata-

[blackfoot]

I like nearly everything you have said

"If she tries to bring up my past indifference, say "I can't prevent the past. I've apologized to you for it, as you have to me, and all we can do now if focus on the PRESENT, and what we can do now to rebuild our marriage and our relationship."
"

This is excellant. its a second step though. First you do need to hear her vent. the only way you are going to hear the truth, is to accept that its going to hurt. Your going to have to press her and she is going to get MAD. (I love it when they get mad. their eyes flash, and they stand up straight look you in the eye all serious and are all pert and they get pissed off when you kiss them while they are being mad, and say things like, 'Why do you always want to kiss me after you are mean to me'--so cute. )

If you try to skip past this part she will be correct in believing you are indifferant to her. unfeeling unlistening clod. (huh? I didnt hear you.. what did you say? lol) If you want to get to the blackberries, you have to ignore the thorns. for several reasons, but the one we will focus on, is to find out her complaints, and fears. You need to be able to listen to it all, with calm loving detachment. no leaning. no reassuring. That is you- IN Conflict . if something is patently untrue, spiteful meant only to hurt, you dont defend and explain you just negate. That can be done without words.
remember, you dont have to respond. once you have heard it you can take the time to ponder it and decifer.

"If she asks me what I want, I'm going to say "I want to rebuild our marriage and the intimate part of our relationship with each other."

Im not sure about this. its vague. The 'intimate part'? thats not very direct or sexy (or funny). its kinda softshoe-- hat in hand 'I like ya alot Ma'am.'
you have to say whats right for you though Choc.
noone wants to work on a R. tell her what you want. be honest. Let her reject you. Deal with the rejection. Want it anyways. rejection is not about you. its about the OP fear. when you get rejected say what you want again. You cannot force anyone to do anything. Your wants are not hurting her. Her fears are hurting her, and the same goes for you.

If she tells me (and she is DEFINITELY going to say this) "I don't seem to be able to make you happy," I need to say "I'm perfectly happy if you just acknowledge that you want to stay in this marriage, and that you will put forth EFFORT at rebuilding our marriage and the intimate part of our relationship."

Choc this comment by her is a push. this is her saying do you love ME? why are you not happy around ME? why do you let me control your mental state. All of your reply is responding to her words, and not really hearing her. your giving her a solution. she doesnt want a solution, she wants to be heard. when you pout or are hurt, she is right about her statement. So dont do it.

you could be direct. 'Yeah, I agree. your not treating me very well. you should get to work on that'
you could funny ' No you dont make me happy, but damn you do make me horny.'
you could piss her off 'yeah Ive been wondering about that. I never realized how selfish you are. I mean seriously, look at how happy I make you.'


the correct answer is to be happy and have fun around her. Change her mood. She would not be there if she didnt want you. Who controls the presentation? you or the customer?

If she asks me "What do you think you know?" I'll probably say "It really doesn't matter what I know. My note to you yesterday was dead-on-target, and we both know it, so I'd rather focus on the present and what we can do to rebuild our marriage and create a better future for our kids. Only you can deal with any other 'distractions' you may have right now that would prevent you from participating fully in that, so I'll leave that to you, but I DO expect you to do that."
perfect

dont try to predict so much what she is going to say. Get your head on straight, your plan in your pocket, know what you want, and dont let hell or highwater shake the determination off of your face. You dont implement boundaries with words. you do that with actions. You dont communicate with words. You talk with words. you dont feel with words. words kill feelings.


I loved the intent of your flowers. There is no perfect phrase, thinking about it comes off fake and false. Actually the perfect phrase is detached honest. and the next perfect thing is silence to let them simmer in the truth. intent and tone are what matter. What is your intent Choco? To control her or to make her feel good? To build a wall around her, or to entice her out of her walls. You cant do that from behind yours. You have to put yourself out there. Do you want her feelings to light like a match, or let her bloom in the heat of your light?

[chocolateeyes]

I am reading ALL of your posts, and will respond, but I'm just totally slammed at work today.

My wife just typed me the following words, but for some reason hasn't sent them to me yet:

thanks Choc,I know all this honesty is difficult for you as it is for me. I have been wrestling with a lot of things over the last few years too. Donna's death started it, then my two best female friends in this whole world, daughters are leaving me.my I am beginning to see the road to the empty nest and I don't like it at all. ,I know we'll talk more at lunch tomorrow, but I don't want to lose these thoughts.I need to let you know where I stand right now, and I don't want to hurt you, just figure out where my head, heart and emotions are. I don't know how I feel. I feel sad when I think of what the kids would feel if we didn't make it. But, I can't let that be the deciding factor in our decision for whatever that will be. I feel right now, that maybe we need to start over and see what's there. Five years ago, we had this problem, and although we thought we fixed it, we only put a bandaid on the wound. And as we can see, we didn't fix anything. I c't do that again, and then find ourselves five or more years down the road in the same situation again. I feel like between all what I previously mentioned and the fact that our marriage is not in a good place, is causing me to be at a crossroads in my life. I mean neither you nor I are getting younger. tWe need to decide which way this is going to go, and as difficult as it is to make that decision, it has to be made for good this time. I feel this is going to take a long time to figure out. This isn't something we'll attempt to fix in a month. Right now, I'm feeling like the best thing for us is some space from each other. We can take some time and see a counselor like you mentioned, and see where we go. I know it will kill the kids, but we I know this isn't what you want to hear, but I truly feel that this is best for us while we are sorting our thoughts.

\

Where is she planning to go??? Our daughters' new condo? Her parents? OM's???

I KNEW this was going to happen. And to answer someone's question, YES, this DOES feel worse (than indifference).

[chocolateeyes]

As I just posted over on the "Piecing" forum:

I guess the distinction I'm looking for from my wife is between the following two things, which, to me, are VERY different:

1. "Choc., it took us a long time to allow our marriage to get like this, and it's going to take a long time -- and a lot of hard work -- to get it back. But I WANT to get it back, and I'm committed to working at it with you. Just be patient with me."

and

2> "Choc., it took us a long time to allow our marriage to get like this, and I'm not sure it can be fixed overnight. In fact, I KNOW it can't. But it's good that we're talking about this, and being honest with each other."

#2 is pretty much her response so far. There's no ACTION in that, and there's no COMMITMENT in it. I am willing to buckle down for the long haul, but ONLY if I know I'm being joined by a committed partner. I'd rather have a committed partner who HATES MY GUTS right now (and she doesn't), than a civil, even somewhat loving wife who's vague and non-committal.

All I hear is that she wants to escape, and every time we've had one of these periods in our marriage, WTF am I the only one who's ALWAYS trying to do all the work???

[Heywyre]

But (1) she hasn't sent it yet, meaning she is thinking it through before she does and (2) a separation isn't necessarily a bad thing.

There are still a lot of positive things in her email - look at them ....

maybe we need to start over and see what's there

I feel this is going to take a long time to figure out. This isn't something we'll attempt to fix in a month

AND .... she is willing to see a counsellor - what more can you ask for right now

[Heywyre]

WTF am I the only one who's ALWAYS trying to do all the work???

Get used to it if you want to fix the problems. Usually it is the betrayed spouse that seems to do most of the work - suck it up

This is not about balancing out who does what. You have to step up to the plate if you want to try and save your M/R and keeping score isn't going to help matters

[NOPkins]

Hi, Choc.

Here is my interpretation.

-----
Indecision, but, need space.
-----

Need space translates to (I am finding myself interested in someone else, and I want time to explore them unencumbered).

Court your wife. YOU introduce some confusion of your own.

-NOPkins-

[chocolateeyes]

NOP,

I'm sorry that I'm having such a hard time grasping some of these seems-to-me-to-be-contradictory things, but the 2 hours of sleep isn't helping any today.

But PLEASE help me understand the distinction between:

"Court your wife."

and

"Don't be needy/grabby/pour-your-heart-out," and all of the other advice I've been given.

I need an easy-to-understand "DO/DON'T" list, like:

DON'T: tell her -- again -- how much she means to you. She knows it, and you told her once.
DO: SHOW her how much she means to you by fighting for the marriage.

DON'T: tell her how beautiful she looks today.
DO: ????

DON'T: send her flowers anymore. Those were just to "mark your territory" at her place of employment anyway.
DO: ????

DON'T: call her during the middle of the day (???)
DO: ????

I'm really struggling with this. How do I show "courting" and "wooing" behavior, without it coming across as "needy/grabby/smothering?"

And remember, I've done damned near NOTHING for the past 3 years, so EVERYTHING is going to seem smothering by comparison!!

Choc.

P.S. I've also been told to "do what it was that attracted to her to begin with" . . . but I attracted her to begin with by being romantic, mushy, epathetic, romantic, caring, and totally UNlike the creep she was engaged to at the time!

[chocolateeyes]

Just more or less journaling here, but I'm thinking that I need to learn to "lie" about my emotions. That is, if it's 3am and I want to cry my eyes out, then go in the bathroom, turn the exhaust fan on, and cry your eyes out, man, but do NOT do it in front of her, as it will NOT come across the least been attractive!

Instead, I'm going to have to learn to deliver lines like "Look, I'm not going to fall apart if you tell me the truth about how you feel. I've pretty much already been doing without getting most of my physical and emotional needs met, so the fact that we're even talking is gravy to me at this point. Yes, it will hurt, but I'm a big boy, and I think it's a fair question."

And say it just as cooly, strongly, and matter-of-factly as I can.

That is NOT going to be easy.

[NewJourney]

Choc, There's one thing I want to add here from an LD perspective, just to prepare you, just for you to store away in the back of your mind. Your W may need to feel the threat of you leaving in order to activate her sexual drive towards you and the drive to save the marriage. Right now she has the best of both worlds...security from you and excitement from OM. You are rocking the boat, which is a good thing, and you will show her the manly thing by your consistent and firm reaction, but the real motivator for her, in my opinion, is going to be coming from feeling the loss of you. When you are entrenched in distance for so long, it takes a crisis to get things going again. The good news is, if you weather the storm, your marriage will be completely different.