Quoting KAW:For what went on for at least three months, my W had an almost predicable weekly pattern of fluctuating between being kind and affectionate (seemingly being drawn back) versus distant and cold (and drifting further away).
KAW, I have a question. During this three-month stint, did your W ever verbally express her love for you? My point is that my W, even though shows affection, still won't say ILY. Now, it's not that I expect it, but even when she's affectionate she's guarded. It's like the wall is still there...just not a high sometimes. Darn it, it's hard to try and explain what I mean here. I guess what I'm asking is did you to go through these vacillations for three months--yes I want to be with you, no I don't--then suddenly, one day, the light bulb went on in her head and now she loves you? What exactly transpired over those three months (in terms of her behavior) to "bring her back?"
You see, my W keeps coming up with reasons why she doesn't love me the way she should. This pattern is NOT healthy, as far as I'm concerned, and would prefer that she change her effort to "making the decision" to love me. Yeah, I know, I have no control. In any case, was your W basically saying the same stuff?
I hope you understand what in God's name I'm asking about. It's kind of hard to put into words...
I know KAW will have a better answer for you but thought I'd chime in with my 2cents anyway.
I have not been at this long as h has only been working his way home now for 3 months. but I can tell you this. h has in that three months only actually said the words 3 times and I only think the first time was totaly heartfelt. (and that was before he "actually" came home but was still in "physical" transition from appartment (wish that damn place would go away now but I digress) I don't care for the fact that h doesn't say the words but have to remind myself that they are merely words. actions are what we really need. Imagine if your w told you each day I love you jethro! but was cold and distant toward you. would it help to hear the words?
I understand the back and forth feelings you are dealing with. I've dealt with them too. think I still am dealing with them but they have slowed and h is now home each night instead of hiding in his appartment.
understand and accept that even the best of marriages have good days and bad days. hopefully with time the good outweigh the bad but there will always be both.
Agreed...and this is being done somewhat. I do notice her paying more attention to my needs. It's just hard hearing her saying ILY to everyone (FIL, MIL, children, best friend) except me. Although, I flubbed and said it the other day and she reciprocated. I won't be doing that again, however...at least, not for a while.
Quote: if your w told you each day I love you jethro! but was cold and distant toward you.
Hmmm...had the ILYs with distance before the 1st bomb. So, unfortunately, I know what it's like.
Quote: would it help to hear the words?
In my imaginary fairy land, it would.
I hear what you're saying. I know my W understands that I was to hear ILY, but won't do it because she's not feeling it...or if she is sometimes she doesn't want to give me some false hope. I guess when I hear her say these words (as she has many times in the past), I will know things are well on their way to being fixed.
Quoting jethro: KAW, I have a question. During this three-month stint, did your W ever verbally express her love for you? My point is that my W, even though shows affection, still won't say ILY. Now, it's not that I expect it, but even when she's affectionate she's guarded. It's like the wall is still there...just not a high sometimes. Darn it, it's hard to try and explain what I mean here....
I hope you understand what in God's name I'm asking about. It's kind of hard to put into words...
Yeah Jethro, I do understand. This coincided with her "love you, not "in" love you" stage, so she was careful not to say it even when she was affectionate. Those times when I pushed (yeah there were a few ... most of my "wise" words come from my mistakes.), to know how she felt when she was with me, her response was, "I feel safe & content, but I want more." However, there were other verbal baby steps. For instance, the week prior to Mother's Day, my wife announced to her folks of her intent to seperate by the end of the month. For M-day, I gave her a heartshape ruby ring like the very first ring I gave her but she lost some years back. While visiting her folks later in the day, she was showing off her ring and when asked who gave it to her, instead of saying something like "Ken did", she said, "My Husband did." with an emphasis on "husband".
Quote: I guess what I'm asking is did you to go through these vacillations for three months--yes I want to be with you, no I don't--then suddenly, one day, the light bulb went on in her head and now she loves you? What exactly transpired over those three months (in terms of her behavior) to "bring her back?"
Yes, to me that is exactly how it seem to happen. She seems reluctant to say much about it for some reason, and I have let is go for now until we feel more secure (maybe by summer, when it will be a year) , but what she has told me so far is that, during the project of rebuilding the steps to our deck, she began to feel differently (stirrings?), then a Saturday shortly after, she stopped fighting against these feelings and decided to "step back" and take a good look at me again. Nothing usual that I had noted, just taking each day at a time with my DBing routine as I had previously mentioned. (I'm not sure if I had mentioned it here or not, but I felt this was the 11th hour, expecting to be served papers at anytime.). That Tuesday, at my mention we walked through the mall. She took my hand and held it through out the entire time. That Thursday, when I came home from a lawyer consultation, my W told me, she was falling in love with me again and that she began to feel so when we were holding hands in the mall.
Now, I don't know what exactly transpired that triggered the change in her feelings, as she has yet to discuss this, but I surmise that she came to an acceptance of the answers she came to about her personal issues and decided to take the direction of wanting to really work at trying to make the marriage work. After that she then frequently assured me with ILY's, but even then there was still a period of time when she still had her doubts she kept hidden if she made the right decision. (Dang, I let it out ... now you know I'm a snooper too). Talk about insecurities galore!
Quote: This pattern is NOT healthy, as far as I'm concerned, and would prefer that she change her effort to "making the decision" to love me. Yeah, I know, I have no control.
Exactly! These are your W's issue to work through and now she has come to terms know that she has to face them and resolve them within rather than run or seek answers elsewhere ... so what is good for the goose is now needs to be good for the gander!
Let her work on her issues with her feelings while you focus on finding forgiveness from within. Afterall, what good is it for her to decide she's in love with you if you haven't reached the point to be able to forgive and accept her love.
Gone on long enough here. It is all on my thread if you want to read more.
Thanks, KAW. I really appreciate the insights. And believe me, I read through your entire thread. I just wanted specific answers to my questions given your experiences. Interesting...
Quote: Afterall, what good is it for her to decide she's in love with you if you haven't reached the point to be able to forgive and accept her love.
I know I need to forgive. Actually, even though she kind of went wierd on me yesterday, I feel like I'm on my way to forgiving. It'll take some time, and naturally I feel anxious about the whole thing, but I'm working through it. She's asked me more than once if I will ever forgive her. Similar to us, me "telling" her I forgive won't change her insecurity regarding forgiveness. I have to just behave as though I've forgiven her. I'm finding this easier.
Do you think your ability to forgive your W specifically drew her closer to you. In other words, do you think she was so moved by your efforts and forgiveness that it helped change her heart?
Quoting jethro: Do you think your ability to forgive your W specifically drew her closer to you. In other words, do you think she was so moved by your efforts and forgiveness that it helped change her heart?
In the "I'm falling in love w/ you" talk, she described that she felt lost and wandered. She said what eventually brought her back was the unwavering resolution in my belief that our marriage could survive all that had happened. It led her to start believing it too and that is what led her back. She thanked me for the strength I had to believe in us despite all she put us through. In fact, for nearly a week afterwards each ILY she gave was followed by a "thank you". The irony of it all was that with her determination to leave the M, I felt she was the stronger of us. A key ingredient to my belief that the M would survive, is that I would be able to forgive her and show her once again I could trust her.
Jethro, a big part in me finding that forgiveness was in the search for my part I played in the events that led up to the A. Remember the A is just the symptom of the marital problems that lie underneath. I had 50% ownership in perpetuting the pattern of what caused us to drift apart and if at any point through out the years prior to the A, if I had just recognized any of it and put some sort of effort to breaking the pattern, then our marriage most likely would not have gone down the path that it had taken. So by accepting the part I played in allowing our marriage to deteriorate and allowing us to drift apart, and then by asking for forgiveness from her, I found I could open my heart to forgiving her.
Quote: So by accepting the part I played in allowing our marriage to deteriorate and allowing us to drift apart, and then by asking for forgiveness from her, I found I could open my heart to forgiving her.
When exactly did you ask for her forgiveness, and when exactly did you forgive her?
I feel closer to being able to forgive, but I KNOW I'd have an extremely hard time saying it to her. And, I also understand that I played a part in our drifting apart. I guess I'm trying to find out about the chicken and the egg here... In your sitch, did forgiveness happen before healing or after...or simultaneously?
When did you discover what your part of the deterioration was? You see, for me it's difficult to pinpoint. I can't put my finger on any one thing, and I know my W would tell you differently. For example, in terms of us drifting apart, I was working a lot, trying to move up, get paid more and provide more. I was wrapped up in the Internet craze and began getting WAY too focused on stock/money. As a result, I kind of neglected the simple, day-to-day things in life. She hinted to me at times that she wasn't entirely happy, or that certain things were bothering her and I didn't clue in. Simultaneously, I've always been kind of tense and grumpy, so this kind of made her distance from me even further, I think. For the most part, I simply WAS NOT nurturing our R like I should have and my attention was elsewhere. This is what I can come up with for my 50%. If you asked her side of the story, she would agree that we drifted a little, but that isn't the core issue. She would say that she never really thought she loved me, that we've always been good friends and not much more, and that we M too young, etc. Her reasons for doing what she did was because she felt trapped at home with kids all day and didn't feel close to me like she thought a W should. Her wall went up, then she became a WAW and had her A.
So, my quandry here is that I don't think we'd agree on what went wrong in our M. She has a much more universal approach that we should never have M while I really see a steady deterioration over the last four years. She really and truly believes this and has for many years now. This is my primary concern: that she won't get over the fact that she will never love me like she should.
What do you think? Is this valid, invalid, she needs time and some love language attention? What?
Sorry KAW, I kind of drifted from my original point in posting.
Jethro I think the saying "Time heals all wounds" is applicable here. I believe in time she and my H will come off the stance of not being in love w/. I think both of our Ss in the quandry what is the definite of love and what does it really feel like. Until they figure it out we just have to remain strong.
I will say you and KAW give me hope. Hope, that my resolve that my M can withstand all that happened will help my H decide to want to work on the M instead of a D. I know at this point our Ss cant figure out why on earth we would still want them but hopefully throught actions we can show them (even when we are grumpy). I ll check on you later. A
Quote: So, my quandry here is that I don't think we'd agree on what went wrong in our M
it can become a game of he said she said. you have your thought, feelings, reasons etc.. she has her thoughts, feelings, reasons etc..
the reasons that she gives will change with time or grow to include other things.
my h first stated some things similar to your w's, we were young, he didn't love me like he should have, "it" wasn't really there, he had realized what a r "should" or "could" be when he spent a little time with ow (before our m) but thought "no I should be with LL" but things didn't change...
it is a brainwashing type thing that seems to occur, can even happen to us if we let it.
try not to dwell on what she gives as reasons, she is there and has decided to work on the r. You have realized some of the things you may have done that contributed so work on them.
Quoting Abby:I believe in time she and my H will come off the stance of not being in love.
I hope so, my dear...I really do...
I'll tell you what, guys, with each passing day, Jethro learns more and more. I don't particularly like this because it goes against some of the more "happy" assumptions I have in my head.
So, what did I find out last night? That although my W "ended" her R with the OM last Sep/Oct time-frame, she continued to talk to him on the phone until she admitted to having an A (not quite three weeks ago). So great, here I thought she told him she was done a few months ago and that was that. But noooooo... Now, I wasn't happy to find out because I thought it was over in Sep/Oct...and I mean over. This was certainly the impression she gave.
So, naturally, I'm thinking, "Ohhh...so the PA was over a few months ago, but you couldn't totally sever the ties, could you?" I said something like this to my W, but not nearly as sarcastic. She kind of got annoyed with me and said, "What difference does it make? Isn't it enough to know that I'm working on things now?" Well, she has a point, but it was still a deception as far as I'm concerned. Additionally, the day I found out about the A, she told me she wouldn't talk to him anymore, and I believe she hasn't. However, will he call? How does he know where things stand? I mentioned this to her and she said that she's always the one that calls because she's the one that's M.
Didn't think about it until this morning, but I woke up, got ready for work and asked her to come downstairs to call the OM and end it officially. I needed definitive closure, and I wanted him to know that I knew, and close it for him too.
So, she comes downstairs and asks me nervously, "You're not going to want to talk to him are you?" I said, no, but that if I did I could always go to this bar to do that anyway. She made me promise I wouldn't do that if she was going to call. So, I promised. Didn't say anything, but it pisses me off her protecting that jerk.
So, she called. Here's the conversation (I only know her end, as I wasn't listening on the telephone): "Hi. My husband is here with me right now and wants to let you know that he knows, and that I am not to call you anymore, nor you call me." Quiet for a second. "Okay. Bye."
Short and sweet. I know it was hard for her, but too bad. We couldn't really talk about it because the kids came downstairs. Lovely, huh? More than anything I hate how she still has feelings for this homewrecker. I know that in time they will fade, however.
In terms of our conversation last night, I heard one of the most wonderful things from her. "Sometimes I feel like we were meant to be together." Of course, she followed that with the opposite view, but I don't care. It was enough for me to hear the positive for now.
jethro (not anticipating having an R talk last night)
