Well, the Chit's About to Hit the Fan, Folks...

[oldtimer]

"Let me think about this one. I do think that what I will say (and this will be in person, because I want to look her square in the eyes) is "And I do intend to protect my interests here. I don't mind people flattering you, and I'm sure it makes you feel good, but if it goes beyond that, I will get involved, and it will be immediate and it will be forceful. You asked me for honesty, so there's brutal honesty for you."

Choc, this seems perfect. I would NOT bring up her EA. IF it exists, it is not the problem in your M, but a symptom. And, trust me, the people seriously involved in EAs or PAs do NOT respond to their spouses in the way your W has responded to you.

The whole exchange is INCREDIBLY powerful and VERY loving on both sides.

And, your email was perfect. I think emailing is a TERRIFIC way for the two of you to communicate. IT WORKS. DO WHAT WORKS. It allows you both to drop your defenses, really hear each other because you can reread the emails, and to say what you really want to say rather than spouting knee jerk reactions from bad ingrained patterns.

I have to tell you, the strong and direct thing looks REALLY great on you. Keep it up.

Also, if you haven't read DR, it is time to do so, or time to reread it. You might want to start participating in some of the other forums as well, perhaps even Piecing. You have a much stronger grounding and a LOT more buy in from your W on growing a wonderful M together than many people who find themselves there.

I am so happy for you!!! No matter how this turns out, your life will no be so much better. You are like the Grinch, whose heart was two sizes to small but has now opened up to have a heart to be admired by all.

[Lillieperl]

I'm a latecomer to this thread, choc, but bravo to you for mega-alpha behavior. I have a lot of hope for you two. I don't see what's to be gained at this point by bring up an EA that you really don't have any evidence for. I think her interest is back on you.

[LustForLife]

I just know that life is too short for you or I to be unhappy. I guess seeing just how short life is (i.e. Deb's death) probably is what makes me sad. I have felt like I was keeping you in a marriage that you are not happy with and preventing you from finding the happiness you deserve, and that hurts me a lot. If something were to happen to you, I would feel awful that I didn't make your life happier.

Hi Choco
Good for you for initiating this discussion. The quote above was written by your W. My H said almost the exact same words when he left me. Not to worry you even more but those words can just be a nice way of saying "I want out." Part of me feels like that right now myself. Life IS short. Why be unhappy.
I don't know Choco. But I think you have to be on offense here as best you can. You can't necessarily change her mind but at least you can say you made the effort.
Hope it works out for you.
LFL

[Stigmata]

Chocolate Eyes,

Just have a few minutes as I saw your thread title.

I new you had it in you. Fantastic! I know my words probably sounded harsh and I even reeeally had to hold myself back but I felt you needed a swift kick in the a$$ to get on task and start being proactive to save your sinking R.

The email is a start. I had a feeling Mrs. Choc was another conflict avoider and this is the absolute worst dynamic between an M-F; both sitting around brewing resentment for each other and waiting, waiting, waiting for the other to make the first move and, seeing none from the other, feed feed feed that resentment and entitlement monster.

A monster that then grows so huge an affair waits right around the corner from one or both, who cannot go living life with zero validation from his/her partner.

I took an interest in you because I felt you still had a chance. I didn't want you to end up like me. I had similar things but no kids. We had the Beemer (paid off btw), huge house, all the trappings. Yet now I'm financially crippled in a hole that will take me years from which to dig myself out. I have no kids. My dreams for the next 60 years of my life have exploded into a thousand shards of pain-inflicting disappointment. The bulk of my 30s are gone. Et cetera.

But you can avoid this. You can keep your family together if that's what you want. But it won't happen overnight or even in MC sessions.

You have have have to tend to your garden every day, so to speak. I know, yes. It's usually the F who is supposed to keep the R in check -- at least we Ms think. And, yes, having Mrs. Choc being a conflict avoider takes that right out of the equation.

So that's why you have at least 5 years of weeds choking out your withering M, brought on through your waiting waiting waiting for Mrs. Choc to be struck by some kind of love-lust for Choco lightning. But the only dark clouds around were the ones over your resentful head and Mrs. Choco sure as hell didn't feel desire to ML to a man projecting that kind of negative repellent body language. No woman would.

I tend to agree with NOP and others. The need space comment is so classic it's almost cliche as an indicator of an F or M hedging his/her bet by setting up a fall-back position with a sutable OM/OW. We can't have our cake and eat it too. We have to make hard one or the other choices.

I appreciate the others' suggestions as to negotiation talks, especially that you please avoid saying anything to put Mrs. Choc on the defensive. IMO you need to downshift even further. You need to go back to basics and start with things like:

1. Do I love her? (forget "in love" BS. It's been nearly 20 years; the butterflies are small piles of dust)

2. Do I see myself growing old and retired with her, holding our grandchildren together and visiting our children on the holidays?

3. If some world authority designated me to spend the rest of my life overseeing some Earth-like colony out there somewhere and I could take only one person with me, excluding children and blood relatives, would Mrs. Choco be at least #2, if not #1?

Forgive the last one if it sounds hokey but it gets to where your feelings truly lie, as do the others, from a purely fundamental standpoint. If you feel positive about them all, great, you've got your purpose and it's time to start rolling up your sleeves.

Don't worry, Choc, you're alpha. You just dropped the rope on your R and your W is out there at full throttle spinning around aimlessly like a pilot-less boat as there is no leader for her to feel safe and secure... and loved/desired.

I can't blame her, frankly. She has tried to give you hints but an F simply cannot lay out a step by step approach to make her attracted to you. Even your children have picked up on her hints.

"You aren't fun anymore." Boom. Hint.

"You don't get jealous" )esp. with my new knockout body) Boom. Hint.

Response? Smile, man, smile. Lose the dark cloud. Be fun with her. Pay attention to her diet by realizing she won't eat Filet o Fishes.

Touch her, pinch her, tickle her, caress her attributes. Make her feel wanted, man.

Don't get crazy jealous but protect what's yours, fella. You can do it.

I'm sure now that you've woken up you feel like you've wasted the last 4 years of your life languishing in your passivity. Yee-haw, Jester's dead!

Remember. Once you overcome this R talk fear and get to business I 100% assure you, you will gain confidence from overcoming the fear.

At the very least you will know EXACTLY where you stand with Mrs. Choc; and wouldn't that be a huge weight off your life? So you can get busy livin' instead of letting an uncertain life live you?

Again, WTG sales guru. Now go and close the deal with your W.

-Stigmata-

[chocolateeyes]

Oldtimer,

Thanks for the encouragement!!! It really means a lot to me.

What is "DR"? Not familiar with that. Is it a book? "Divorce Remedy," perhaps?

I've long felt I was on the wrong board, as our problems were so much more than SEX at this point. More about communication, respect, SELF-respect, boundary-setting, "getting the spark" back, with some MLC thrown into the mix.

But you guys are the group that I knew, and with whom I felt comfortable. There is SUCH a great mix of male and female, alphas and betas, from all stages of relationships, and everyone is so helpful. So here I've come.

E-mail has always worked well for us, followed by personal talking and a loving hug. We both get EXTREMELY DEFENSIVE, and we don't "fight well." We don't even communicate particularly well, but with the written word we're both pretty good. I just think the part of my protecting my -- and the family's -- interests needs to be done in person, kwim?

Again, thanks for the help and encouragement.

Choc.

[chocolateeyes]

Hi Choco
Good for you for initiating this discussion. The quote above was written by your W. My H said almost the exact same words when he left me. Not to worry you even more but those words can just be a nice way of saying "I want out." Part of me feels like that right now myself. Life IS short. Why be unhappy.
I don't know Choco. But I think you have to be on offense here as best you can. You can't necessarily change her mind but at least you can say you made the effort.
Hope it works out for you.
LFL

Good point. I do think that a part of her -- a LOUD part in her mind -- is saying "You can't make him happy. Give him his freedom. He's just too nice a guy to tell you, so do it for him."

She's made hints at this before. Like when I wrote her a REALLY nice poem/card for our anniversary (or was it Valentine's Day?) and she shook her head, got real quiet, and said "You make me sound so much better than I am." She's also admitted, especially during our "mini-bomb" time 4-1/2 years ago, that "I know I'm not a very good wife to you." and "I don't seem to make you happy."

Someone else above asked me what did I learn from the mini-bomb/mini-epiphany my wife and I went thru 4-1/2 years ago. That's a great question. I think I learned, from a SEX standpoint, that I probably came on too strong, and -- as much as she was stretching herself waaaay beyond her comfort zone -- I probably sent some unspoken messages of "it's still not enough for me." More on that later, if and when we ever get back to that point.

And I also learned that she has some deep-seated insecurities, and yet at the same time she does NOT like to talk about them! "I don't want to dwell on that, I just want to keep working on us" would be her comments. Me, I am SO analytical, I like to talk everything to death, and while I think that frustrated her, I think I needed to have pushed her more to undertand why she does the things she does, as I just KNEW she would fall back into her old ways of thinking -- and she did.

In general, I just think we both got WAY too complacent, WAY too soon. Remember, 4-1/2 years ago was about 15 years into some pretty bad habits, on BOTH of our parts. We had far more "fixing" to do than we spent time doing. We didn't build the foundation, and now we're both left wondering why the house is crumbling down.

Choc.

[OG_Lou]

Are you thinking what I'm thinking? .... no, you go first -- no, you" thing going on.
I see not wanting to ask a potentially wrong question or make a wrong assumption here. BTDT


Do I let her know that I know about the EA, and insist that it end?
Two answers:

1. Yes. You are marking your territory.

2. No, she will go underground more if she knows how you found out. Could you wait another week to see what she does? What she txts to the OP?

Looking back at other forum posters with souses e-mailing/txting OP, stopping it early works sometimes. Other times the spouse goes underground and becomes better at hiding their involvement with the OP. If you wait a week or how ever long, you will get a better picture of what is actually happening in the EA. By waiting a week she could do something that isn’t healthy for the M. You decide what is best for you

Choc, great job for busting through the anxiety and doing the things you have so far.

I see some overall concepts in your e-mails to your W that put her too much in the driver’s seat. I see what I will condense as “what do you want dear” in some of your statements to her. I see other places where you state what you want, WTG.

If things and people are as good as I am reading and have read, your M is worth fighting for.

BB and I had the kids as glue to help keep us together. When they left we were on inertia for a while. My point is you have to reinvent the M to keep going. That re-inventing may include some tear-down activities to weed out the dead wood. Later you can add new materials and rebuild or modify your M if that is what you both want, which sounds like you do.

It is so good to see you doing the things you posted here. WTG.

Lou

[oldtimer]

Yes, Divorce Remedy. (I assume you've already read PM which I think is GREAT for building real intimacy.)

"E-mail has always worked well for us, followed by personal talking and a loving hug."

Great, the email lets communication be effective and the in-person stuff solidifies it, makes it real, and allows for the direct emotional/physical interaction to bring it home.

Re switching boards -- it is good that you have a strong support system here. And, splitting posts between two boards really doesn't work that well. Perhaps you might want to post a request in Piecing for a few people to look at your sitch here and help out. I think you'd probably get some takers, especially because, on my reading, your sitch sounds pretty optimistic. Of course I could be off-base, but I'm generally one for trying to get people OUT of denial about how bad their sitches are. I'm not one for empty cheerleading.

[Heywyre]

BRAVO!!!!

You have made the first move, she has made the second and now the dialoge is open. Don't let it slip by. Deal with it, you both seem to be at the same place so do something about it. This is the best opportunity you are going to get.

You can do this!!

[chocolateeyes]

Lou,

Thanks for the "waytagoes." Your encouragement here this past week or so has been a big part of my motivation. That, and the alphas smacking me over the head with 2-by-6s.

My wife has already begun deleting her text messages, as it looks like she's figured out how to do that (as recently as two weeks ago, she didn't even now HOW TO SEND or READ them on her phone. ahh, the innocent days). But I still have other ways of gauging the level of her involvement with OM.

On Mother's Day, I left her a note on her windshield while she was at the gym and I was out running errands. It was simply my business card, with the words "You are loved" and a smiley face on the back of it, left on her windshield. I wanted to let her know that she had 5 "consequences" at home that loved her.

Last nite, on our way back from S14's baseball game, S14, S10 and I surprised Mrs. Choc. by stopping in the gym, as S10 "wanted to say hi" to her. Of course, Dad46 had suggested to S10, "Hey, how about we go surprise mommy?" I wanted to throw her a little off-balance, wanted to eye up the OM, and wanted him -- and her -- to see the tangible faces of her family.