Do I blow this off as her just getting out to blow off some steam and enjoy some time with friends, or should I be upset? I would NEVER come home two hours later than she expected ME from something, without calling. I sometimes go out for beers after my baseball league stuff, but the latest I've come home is 10 or 11, and even then, if it's going to be significantly later than what she was expecting, I call


Ok so you give her what you want to receive, respect and she gives you what she wants, juicing you up on the emotional drama.
I have a question for you. Can you imagine Mrs. Nop doing what your W did? How about HP, or GEL or Karen?

When I was 21 and had an underdrinking age girlfriend, we went someplace she could get into. there are lots of 18andover places to drink and have a Bday. I sure didnt exclude her, or have her drop her mom off to hang out with us.

You have no boundaries, Choco. I think its been pretty well determined that lack of boundaries is neither attractive, nor engenders respect. If you did at the very most she would have asked and you would have said sure after you find a babysitter for the other kids so we can both go. There is no reason you couldnt join bday boy later, if the games were done by 8:30.

What I DON'T know, is it better if I just ignore it (because she's already shown, she HATES it when I don't get jealous) and not feed that beast, or is it better if I confront her with it.

How can you not know this? When I first started posting here we talked about jealousy and what protection, and cherishing looks and feels like to a woman. The way you are behaving is not it.
What beast? the beast where she wants to feel like you care about her? That she has value to you? That her being your W is important?

They all hang out together, and it was as "Hey, Mrs. Choc., come out with us on Wednesday for Joe's 21st, it'll be fun."

Man I use this remark so much, it pretty much works every time. Ive even recommended it here to guys as a way of leading without supplicating. Choco, I go to TARGET, and use a variation of this, to have some company for the evening on a boring hump day.

But what if I don't care? Is your advice still the same, so that I can feel better about myself?

I honestly have zero romantic attraction to her anymore. She inconvenienced me last nite, as it was difficult to sleep until I knew she was home safe, so that plus the lack of respect by no-phone-call pissed me off. But I did not care one whit about how she feels about any of these other, younger guys.

I'm not saying that's right or wrong, or even healthy, but it's just how I feel.

If you dont care, then why dont you D her? Because she has hurt you and you want to hurt her back. She should leave you then. You flat out said you want her to me miserable. Why shouldnt she go find someone who will make her feel good?



But the only thing you asked for was the right thing to say to her in this situation. There is no right thing to say IN ANY SITUATION. again. We have talked so much about intent, and body language. Ive said it a dozen ways a dozen times. NOP just said it within the past month. Masculinity self manifests.
There are no right words for this situation, because this situation is proof that her respect and your boundaries are non existant. There is nothing you can say to have a 1 day fix. I will say this though.
When you tell a woman you dont care about OM, or push her verbally or with your actions towards another man, you are not cherishing her or protecting her. tending the fences. AND she will hate you for it.


Still, with that all being said, I do appreciate your unique perspective, and I am proceeding with EVERYTHING with the understanding that I'm taking a risk that my wife could have an affair. But that's HER choice, not mine. She has known for a long time what my needs are, and has chosen to ignore them. She's gone so far as to tell me why she does this (push me away), that she wishes she WASN'T like this, and that she promises not to BE like this, ever again.

Then she does it.

I just need to figure out a way to leave her Choice to her, but to still feel OK about my own integrity in the process.
 You think you are being differentiated, but you are not treating her like a woman needs to be. Personally your W reminds me a lot of LFL. You may say say that is her choice and it is, but thats not going to stop the pain and destruction thats going to engulf you.

"Hey, glad you had a good time, but next time I'd appreciate a phone call if you're going to be that late. I was concerned." is perfect This is not a good reply. its a push, and its a lie. if you want to maintain your integrity thru this, and truly want to remove culpability from your shoulders then you will be direct and honest, about YOU.

I can't help but think Mrs. Choc likes to be chased and maybe some day someone is going to catch her. Then what are you going to do?

Let him catch her. Or -- more accurately -- tell her something like "I love you, and I still think God put us together for a reason, and that we had something special. So don't misunderstand me -- I'd like you to stay with me. But I will not beg for that, and I will not even allow you to choose that if it means that we remain in the sexless, affectionless marriage that we've been in for most of the past 20 years."

This hoped for conversation where she suddenly realizes you are the man for her, and makes a choice, is a pipe dream. again, your expecting from her what you are unable to do yourself. If/when she leaves your M, and 98% of the time women have someone else when they leave, because of your emotional neglect, she wont give a flying pig whether or not you want her to stay, and she certainly wont care about having sex with you when she has someone else she can have sex with with no emotional grittiness to deal with. What will happen is she will let you know exactly how you have abandoned, neglected, failed, and hurt her all these years. You have this idea, desire, want for her to choose you, all whilst you are pushing her away. Get real Choco. Im truly saying this as your friend. I wish I would have had a friend to say this to me. Mayhaps my arrogance and intractability would have precluded me from understanding much as yours is.

that when you love someone, you're told of their intense pain and have seen it up-close, and you've PROMISED that it (intentionally turning away, and becoming affection-less) wouldn't happen again, you DON'T just blow that off if you truly love the person, and care about them, and can continue to see signs of their pain daily.

So why do you put up with her emotional abuse of you? Whoes fault is that?
What is stopping you from being proactive about doing what it will take to proactively address this, even if it means D her? She is being proactive about getting what she needs.

I find this sad.

You have a woman who, based on the assumption that she has been faithful too you for the past 20 years, has stuck by you while you have given her no reason to be attracted or feel romantic attraction to you. You have 4 children that are also not motivation enough for you to step up and do and say the radically honest things to her, that you expect her to do and say to you.
Now I will admit that I did the exact same relational swapping that you are doing to your W, with x, but damn I would have been seriously impressed with 1 year of fortitude and ability to withstand the emotional starvation and do nothingness that you have subjected yours too for at the very minimum 3 years.
You really have a woman, and a family, worth it. shrug.

Your feelings are screaming at you to do something, take some action, and you are ignoring them, stuffing them, not aware of them, dont know what to do about them. They will continue to talk to you louder and louder untill even your dreams are vividly telling you of the impending danger.

1. Both spouses agree there is a problem, and agree to work on it, together;

There is the answer to your question. Youve had it in you all along.

You tell your wife, 'we have a serious problem. Our marriage is on the verge of failing.

That is not a question.


If you agree with me, that there is a problem, then we have to come to a joint decision on whether to deal with it, or end it. its time we do something about it. If you disagree with me, that there is a problem, then there is nothing to talk about, and I begin what needs to be done.'

or you can continue to watch others make important decisions about your life.

I wont wish you luck Choco, cause its gonna take a butt load of hard work, no matter which way you go.