Question for the Alpha Males

[oldtimer]

Just my two cents...

There is a big difference to going out with one's coworkers who are PEERS and going out with one's students. One has power over one's students that one doesn't have over one's peers. There are concerns about fairness, sexual harrassment, and so on.

I might be crazy, but it doesn't seem weird at all for W to want to go out with the gang for a night on the town. Only ONE GUY was 21. There were also people in their later 20s, 30s etc...

[chocolateeyes]

Lou,

Thank you for your post, and yes, BB and Mrs. Choc. are a LOT alike, and I've thought so for along time, as I've always followed your sitch (and I think we've even discussed this before).

These "copy the quote, and then reply" paste jobs are hard, esp. while I'm at work, but your post is SO dead-on, I need to:

I read you do care but something is blocking you to do anything about it. Conflict avoiding? Fear of rejection? It’s been bad for so long, why bother now? Something else?

I do care about her, but just not in a romantic way anymore. Even on the rare occasions where I still find her body sexually attractive (and trust me, it looks PHENOMENAL right now), it's more of a lustful feeling than an "agape" love that a man ought to have for his wife. I think it is a "I will not let myself get hurt again" defense mechanism on my part, tho.

Choc, I see she might have been holding out on you and now you are holding out on her.

Yep.

I also relate to what NOP said, wanting her to be the bad guy or you not being the bad guy (it's her fault mentality.)

"Yep" again.

With my R, I lose interest because of the lack of progress or when progress only happens due to conflicts. Sometimes I see myself heading down a road similar to yours.

I most definitely get despondent -- and defeatist -- over what I see on this Board (and others) in that 98% of the relationship improvements only come from the following two categories:

1. Both spouses agree there is a problem, and agree to work on it, together;

2. Fed-up spouse threatens other spouse with divorce, separation or some other nasty, woolly thing that goes "bump" in the night, and even then, the positive response only lasts so long as the fed-up spouse keeps up the threat of the nasty woolly thing.

I also think when you don't want a sexual R with your W, in some ways it is depriving her of some form of validation and other things she needs. Maybe she appears not to want a physical R with you or anyone, but I wonder if that mode of operation is causing her long-term problems?

I definitely think this is true, and I think now it's coming home to roost in her psyche. She needs to have her physical beauty validated, and since she no longer gets that from me, she's seeking it elsewhere. Because (at least so far), her personal value system hasn't allowed her to commit adultery, she's not gotten it ANYWHERE, and I think that's killing her. And the sad, twisted thing is, I'm glad that it's killing her. I know that just sounds HORRIBLE, but it's true.

Women that like to be chased but not caught. Is that your W on the outside, but different internally?

BB likes me chasing her but has problems when I catch her.. Once in a while she openly likes being caught. When I don't chase BB, she isn't happy. Are Mrs. choc and BB similar? I don't know.

BINGO!

I can't help but think Mrs. Choc likes to be chased and maybe some day someone is going to catch her. Then what are you going to do?

Let him catch her. Or -- more accurately -- tell her something like "I love you, and I still think God put us together for a reason, and that we had something special. So don't misunderstand me -- I'd like you to stay with me. But I will not beg for that, and I will not even allow you to choose that if it means that we remain in the sexless, affectionless marriage that we've been in for most of the past 20 years."

If someone had a magic wand where there were no problems afterwards, what would you like?

1. No wife?
2. A composite W consisting of traits something similar to Karen, GEL, someone else HD?
3. Keep things as they are?
4. A W with a lover, but not you?
5. An asexual R?
6. Your ideas?

Man, what an interesting, intriguing question. Hmmmm. "5" is pretty much what I'm living in now (therefore also making it "3"), so no, I wouldn't wish that on ANYBODY, much less choose it as my "magic wand" scenario. I don't understand #4? But I guess I'd have to say that:

a) I am a sexual man, with "physical touch" extremely high on my list of LLs;

b) I've come to the realization that my wife for the past 20 years is probably more like the "true" Mrs. Choc. than the what the first 2 years were;

c) I like being married -- I like that lifestyle of a wife and children;

So I would choose "I would like to get married, but to someone who is more compatible with me in the affection and sex department."

Do I get to keep my same kids tho? Cuz just doing that little thought process there just now just made me EXTREMELY sad. Because even tho she has been my heartache and my frustration, she has still given me the four loves of my life.

Just my thoughts Choc. I only wish you well and Mrs. Choc well. I can imagine you are both hurting.

I'm quite sure that she is, Lou.

[chocolateeyes]

Yeah, what SHE said!

[chocolateeyes]

Eddie,

I really didn't want to get into all this today, but out of courtesy, I'll answer your questions, and I do appreciate your reply:

You have no romantic attachment to your wife. Does she know this?

Good god, how could she NOT? We haven't ML in over 3 years, we've ML only maybe twice in 5 years, and I haven't initiated in those same 3 years nor even told her that I miss it. That may be right or wrong (and most of you have told me that I'm nuts, I understand), but there's no way on God's green earth that she could not know that I've lost my sexual feelings for her.

I know you've had it out with her before and gotten temporary results. You may have to do it again and again and again to keep the connection alive.

No, thank you. In fact, my refusal to do just that pretty much sums up my overall philosophy on this Board and on this whole topic for the past four years. I will not beg for something that the one who supposedly loves me, and has forsaken all others for, knows that I both want and need, knows that she has ripped my heart out about before, and yet still chooses to reject me.

What can make her "get it" for good? Who knows. People get it when they're good and ready, and not before. I don't know of a good way to speed it up, other than to force them to see the results of not getting it... i.e., bring to their attention that your romantic feelings are GONE and you have no reason other than concern your remaining underage children to stick around.

My wife is a smart, intuitive woman, and I know with every fiber of my being that she knows. If she asks me, I will tell her, but I'm not going to bring it up again. Maybe that's a stupid place to draw the line, but that's where I have drawn it.

Choc.

[chocolateeyes]

Heywyre,

So what's my wife supposed to do, for it not to be "weird," turn down every social invitation from her 20- and 30-something co-workers? She's already turned down about the first DOZEN of them; the lunch and the b-day drinks last nite were the first things she finally said "yes" to. Her boss -- the supervisor of all of the CPTs -- is in his late sixties. The male group invited him to Disney's "Islands of Adventure" in Orlando next week -- just the guys -- and the old guy is going, I give him credit!

You guys are focused on the wrong guy. The 21yo isn't the threat, in my opinion. There is a trainer there who my wife has seemed physically attracted to, and then there's a front-desk guy who's not the physical specimen that the trainer is, but is a sensitive guy who's paid special attention in taking over my wife's diet and training regimen. She talks about him often. It's THIS guy -- followed by the big guy -- that I'm watching, NOT the 21yo that's dating D18.

btw, my keylogger caught the following from my wife about two weeks ago:

"OLDER WOMAN-YOUNGER-MAN RELATIONSHIPS"

[chocolateeyes]

These are all co-workers/peers, and some friends of same.

[oldtimer]

Yes, that's what I thought. That's why I thought it wasn't weird. It doesn't seem weird to me when I go out with a group of colleagues from their early 20s to 70s.

But, I get NOTHING from you on what an alpha male says when I gave you such a direct response to your initial query?

Hmmppphhh

[MrsNOP]

You're dead-on on the age thing; everyone at the gym is in their 20s and early 30s, except for her boss, who is late 60s (and in phenomenal shape himself). So it's not like she's chosen this group of younger people, it's that EVERYONE there is younger.

She purposely chose that "group of younger people" when she set her hat to take a position at this gym.

MrsNOP -

[MrsNOP]

But, I get NOTHING from you on what an alpha male says when I gave you such a direct response to your initial query?

An alpha male would have addressed this situation well before it got to this point, IMO.

MrsNOP -

[RedHeadWife]

I've just read your thread, however, I don't have all the background before that, but I was just curious as to when was the last time you tried to talk to your W about your sitch (obviously prior to the 3 yr mark, but when before that and how many times)?

The only reason I ask is you kind of categorized (and maybe I'm wierd) but it only took 1 D bomb and I now have a note on my computer that says "NEVER FORGET." I do not ever want to have to go through that again -- I love my H so very much and am willing to do all I can to save my M, which I believe I have successfully done (and this did include becoming HD v. pretty much LD and now I love it).

But my point is that often times we get back into the rut and that's when we need to remember the lessons learned and remember that it takes effort. Anyway, I'm just wondering what would happen if you did decide to talk to your W again? Even if you said to yourself "Self, just one more time and that's it." Maybe that's what she is waiting for. Maybe you both are just being stubborn and wasting time that you will never be able to get back. Maybe I'm way off base.