What is the backdrop to these conversations? Is this via phone or face to face? Sorry, but are you guys living in the same house or are these arguments happening during kid exchange or whatever?
I'll post more later - I just needed to understand what is causing these "discussions". Who is initiating?
Sven
Sorry Sven, we cross posted. The backdrop would be both, phone and face2face. We are in the same house.
I think what kicks this stuff up is she gets to a point where she starts to think about how much she can't do it or something. I really believe that is what is happening, based on looking back over the last few weeks. My problem is not making myself scarce when I see it coming. A lot of times it will be when we are lying in bed, or end up in a room alone or something. I have made the mistake of asking what's up when I noticed her starting to act a little down or like something is wrong. I need to just leave it alone. I truly believe it's her internal dialogue working and me asking or giving her an opportunity to say it out loud causes her to only say the negative side of the internal conversation. I don't believe she wants to say the positives that are floating through, if any, due to not wanting to give me any hope and sticking to her guns about how done she is.
In the past, I initiated. The recent throwdowns have been initiated by her. Usually starting with a, "I see that you have made changes, I tell my friends that I can see how much you've changed but it's too late, I'm not changing". Just take that sentence and run it through 5 or 6 permutations and that is how she normally initiates.
Feeling like a fraud today. I'm struggling with just wanting to walk away. I dropped her at the gym today. W wants to get a workout in and then walk home. Cool. As I drop her, we say our goodbyes, I wish a good workout/day and she leans over to give me a goodbye peck on the lips.
Right before she gets to me she does this cringe/shudder type thing.
You know what? Like I need your freakin peck on the lips. God forgive my ungrateful heart but Jesus give me strength. I can get kisses like that from my grandma, aunts and friends...., and they won't act like they are going to puke prior, during and after.
So yes, I'm struggling with this today. I deserve better, maybe not with her because I made this bed, but with someone else now that my head is screwed back on correctly and I'm living my authentic, genuine 'I', I can be a great addition to someones life.
Am I ungrateful? Sadly, yes because I know there are good, loving people here that have been left behind that would give 10 years of their life to have THAT much effort from their WAS. Am I asking God to forgive me and soften my heart? NON-STOP!
What is the right direction to take? Should I just name the elephant in the room? Tell her, look, I can tell you don't want to kiss/touch/hug me, so don't until you are ready? Or should I leave it alone, treat it as something she is working through/effort she is giving, and considering she is a strong willed, tough woman, she wouldn't if she didn't want to try?
Well, I just scheduled my last of 3 appointments with a DB coach. Tomorrow at 9AM.
I've been reading through Sven and Frank_D's threads. I see a lot of similarities in the way that the WAW responds and I'm trying to put the lessons learned from Frank_D and Sven into play.
The pecks, little hugs, or I hug her and she just stands there type stuff is better than nothing. I think I have done something Frank_D talks about in one of his threads where he would hang around and wait/linger to catch a kiss goodnight or something and how he stopped doing that because he thought it was being interpreted as being desperate. I think that's the signal I've been sending. The last few days I've been better about it but before that I would try to make the "peck" last a little longer, hug feel a little deeper/warmer, try to find her at night or when I'm leaving to hopefully get that kiss/hug goodnight/bye. I believe as Frank_D mentioned, it comes off as desperate and probably more pursuing behavior.
I'm leaving for the day soon and that is my plan for tonight. No lingering, no trying to make the "peck" more of a kiss, no holding onto the hug a little longer hoping she will put her arms around me. Time to let that go. Shoot, if I wanted a hug or kiss that desperately I could walk up and wrap my arms around the 28 year old hottie I work with that invited me out for drinks on Cinco De Mayo. She made it more than clear that she heard there were problems on the homefront and if things ever change with the domestic situation, she is really interested in a lot of the same things I'm interested in, ie; live music, outdoor sports, working out, (she competes in fitness competitions), so if I need to "clear my head, we can go do some things".
For now, I'll just use that as a needed ego boost to stay the course. Yeah, I know, sounds twisted but realizing that I don't "need" the W to want me, to be wanted, eases some of the desperation.
Tyler - one thing you need to be VERY careful about is when a "hottie" usually makes it obvious she wants something, its because its a challenge, which you are right now because you are technically not available. However, IF you were to become available, you can be certain her "desire" would be gone in the blink of an eye - I'm not kidding you
Heywyre
M - 57 H - 65 1st A-bomb - Nov 27/02 2nd A-bomb - Dec 13/06 together 21 years *************************** Insanity is doing something over and over and expecting different results (Albert Einstein)
I'd avoid sending the article....I don't see what good it will do ya.
Also, I agree with Heywyre. I got some great PMA as I started to GAL - lost weight, working out, getting out with some male friends and there were women that were starting to notice. But one thing I knew for darn sure - I wasn't ready for any type of relationship - and it would have broken a vow for myself. I too think it'll be game over with the hottie should you indulge - and I don't mean just with your W, but with the hottie as well because the thrill of the hunt will be over.
In the end, what Frank_D and I both did was to stand by our principles - steadfastly and ultimately we let go. You know, there was another program I followed which shall remain nameless (because the moderators censor it) - but one of the main principles was to stop disagreeing (to me this was a stronger build off of Michelle's Act As If). When I FINALLY got it - I stopped disagreeing with my W and just accepted it was over. I made it clear that as much as I wanted it to be different, I understood what she was telling me - that the love was gone and our M was over. You see, a WAS truly believes that walking away is their only option. Once they have started this path, there is no arguing or convincing that will work. I really believe that you have to LET them live that reality.
When I finally got it, my W was saying "I cannot love you anymore, its just gone" to which I wouldn't argue that there is anything there. I would agree. I would say "you know, I understand, I really became unlovable and I understand". BUT, then I would live the ALTERNATE reality of becoming a better man, father, and ultimately husband (even if at the time it meant that at some point it was with someone else). As that happened, and my W saw the changes "sticking" and my R with my kids getting better, and mutual friends KNOCKED out about how I looked, etc. she started to come around.
The next phase was she would say things like "I don't know if I can trust you". I would once again, agree. I'd retort, "I understand - I have trouble trusting myself sometimes - I mean I am very focused on becoming a better man, only time will tell if I do". Then she would say "I feel like I am losing my best friend". Here is the trick - I could say "No, you're not, I'm still going to be here". Well that is BS. I'm not. Trains leaving. I wouldn't be rude about it, but instead, I would agree - "yes, that's going to be hard". She would say, "you mean we won't talk every day". "No", I would say, "unless there was some kid specific thing, I don't think my future girlfriends or spouse will be comfortable with that". Again, train is leavin' the station darlin'.
The more this happened, the more comfortable *I* became that I was again in control of my life. It doesn't mean that I was happy with the fact it was happening - I still wanted my M back - but at least *I* was choosing my reality. And I KNEW if I kept the focus on being a good man, father, etc., she was eventually bound to come around. It was just a matter of time. So, I would lay low, GAL, answer only one out of three phone calls, etc. I STOPPED saying ILY. I stopped waiting for a goodbye kiss. If asked, I would give one, but I was on my journey and refused to look needy. That is an attraction killer if there was ever one!
What I am saying through all of that is that DON'T leave out of spite or resentment - they aren't selfserving and will only be selfdestructive and they come from a place of fear. Instead, allow your heart to come from a place of love. I used to hate the old addage, "if you love someone, set them free". You know what, if you really do love someone, you will. When we approach our relationships with fear - it's like an infection that won't go away. We're jealous, needy, unattractive. When we approach from a place of unconditional love, we're liberated because the folks we care about the most, aren't supressed - and you both can just "be".
This is a huge leap of faith.
But consider this. If you were to be liberated - and living a life for yourself that was not unlike what attracted your W to you in the first place, is that a bad thing?. And remember how unconditional your love for her was back then. And work toward making yourself that person again - you have a shot. And if you focus on the things you feel are the most important in your life - put your kids right after yourself - you'll only become a better dad. More attractiveness. And if your W notices, then great. And if she still doesn't - do you really want to be trapped in a loveless R - holding each other prisoner? Just imagine if you take that learning on to your next R - how much more powerful it could be?
To close, that is how I approached mine. On December 5th, 2005, my M died (after months if not years in a coma). In early February, I buried it, took off my ring and said, okay even if we do get back together, I commit to never be the relationship it was. In otherwords, I won't build it on the old foundation, I'm starting anew. Three months later, I moved home and started all over again....
But I had to let go first....
Sven
Never sacrifice the great for the good. Sometimes the beauty of grace is that it makes life not fair.
My problem is not making myself scarce when I see it coming.
You recognizing this I think is good. I used to sit there and take it because my W is good at "emphasis" - repeating over and over. So I would either, make myself scarce or only listen to one gyration and then go do something else. When on the phone this is easy - preface EVERY conversation with "I only have X minutes then I have to go do Y". This sets the expectation. When at home, that is more tricky so best to try and listen - then after the second reading of the riot act, simply say "I undertand what you are saying, now I have to go do X" or better yet, "If you are going to continue to repeating, this conversation is over". You have that right, as a man and she might just respect you for it. I've done this when my W has berated me - she get's really steamed at the moment - then a couple hours later, strangely she wants to jump my bones....
In other words, take control...not in an abusive way - but in a way that shows you won't be walked on.
Sven
Never sacrifice the great for the good. Sometimes the beauty of grace is that it makes life not fair.
Heywyre and Sven, re; the hottie. That is exactly what my bro said as he was picking me up for lunch today. She walked over to say hi to him and drop a line in there about being my next lunch "date". As we walked out my bro said, "what is it with these young girls and married guys?" I didn't say anything and then he said, "forbidden fruit syndrome, they just want it because somebody said they shouldn't".
You're right. It would make sense to me that if she were to read that article and think, "maybe I'll give this some more time given that the person writing the article has counseled thousands and probably knows a thing or two about this". I'm really starting to learn that if it would make sense to me, don't do or say it.
I have been doing the counter argument you mention. When she tells me there is nothing there and won't be. I usually respond with, there was so there will be. I will try your approach next time she goes there. Its true, someone that doubts your every move, questions, snoops and is jealous, is pretty unlovable and definitely unattractive. I wouldn't want to spend time around them. Yet, I know that I'm changed. You know what I'm talking about, I feel like I shed my skin or something. I don't even have the same thoughts anymore. I could care less who she is on the phone with, e-mailing or texting. Yet, getting someone to see that is next to impossible without time, time proves all things.
I have definitely put the things you mentioned into play, re; ILY, waiting for goodbye kisses or any affection for that matter, lingering/hanging out to chat, pretty much everything except taking the ring off. I think its time for the ring to go as well. She left for church a while ago, every ring but ONE, of course. You know what? Although I noticed it, I really didn't care. The only reason I noticed is because she was wearing a new torquise type thing on her middle finger, which caught my attention as we were saying goodbye. It really is the least of my worries at this point.
You know the only thing that really wrecks me at this point is losing the privilege of seeing my kids any time I want. I'm not kidding, there have been times where I have come home from a really rough night at work, walked into my D6's room at 3AM, sat on the floor next to her bed, put my hand on her stomach and felt it rising and falling with each breath, in that moment I knew that everything was cool, I really was alive and my kids would see a much different world than what I had just seen. Thought stopping that is more than I can do at this point, I've tried.
Leaping and letting go..., here I come.
Sven, I'm interested in the other program if it will piggyback on to the DB'ing stuff I'm doing now. E-mail me, cruxshadowsdude@yahoo.com
Tyler, I too am living with my WAW so you have my sympathies! Reading through your posts, I think you are handling things pretty well. I'm glad that you are making yourself less available to W (detaching) and cherishing your kids. Keep up both of these as they can only make you feel better and increase the odds of reaching your goals. SD
Me 41 W 41 Kids: S9 S7 Married 16 years Bomb dropped 2/2/07 Still living together! current thread
