IMO, you are treading on dangerous ground here. You have stated a good argument why your H should own up to his actions, why your family is justified in wanting to protect you, why he should own up to his actions so your family can forgive him, and plenty more reasons I am sure. But you know what? None of that matters! The bottom line is either your H or your family. This is a classic power struggle and one that dysfunctional families fall into ALL THE TIME and YES, YOUR FAMILY IS DYSFUNCTIONAL.
Actually I do not think that Heather's H or her family is the choice she feels at all. I think the choice she feels is her own self worth and opinions versus her husband's. I think, for her, her family is merely an incidental. Now Heather's H HAS made heather's family an issue and my concern is that he may possibly be purposely picking fights and forcing choices in order to ISOLATE Heather from her family. NOT a good thing IMO.
That said, Heather still needs to address her H's concerns in ways that SHE controls. She needs to respect his feelings even if she does not have the same feelings. It is tough for her because he does not honor her in that way but regardless of what he does, I think she needs to search for the strength to be respectful without giving in and giving him all the power. A tough place to be!!
Cobra,
I still cannot tell how close we are in opinion or not. The thing that confuses me is that I do not ever read what your opinion is about Heather's personal issue with the marriage.
It APPEARS to me when I read your post to Heather that what you are telling her is similar to someone telling you to just accept that there will be no sex in your marriage so get over it. I would certainly hope that you would ignore that person's advice because it would be so outrageous, right? So why do you appear to think that HEather's point about being in a marriage where she cannot express and have an opinion is not a HUGE problem for her? Why shouldn't her main goal be to a balanced marriage where BOTH of them are capable of having their needs met?
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
fearless - Well maybe look ahead to the trip in LV and decide some things that you and H would want to do.
Heather -That would be an excellent idea if he agreed to come, but he's not.
Anyway... my point would be that being empathetic and letting your H know that you understand it is inconvenient, a pain in the azz, and not his idea of a perfect weekend however you would really appreciate the time with him.
I had the order of things mixed up in my post. I know he is not empathetic with you but I think reaching out to him can be useful. Let him know you understand why he would not want to go but that it would mean a lot to you. He may still not go but at least you let him know you understand his reasons for not going. And if he does not go, let it go. Try not to personalize it and just tell him that you understand that travel and being away from home is difficult for him.
Do I have to make a checklist of every possible thing you might think of and then make sure I address each one to assure that my opinion is considered?! His reaction was ridiculous.
Not to be picky but judging his reaction is not helpful That said, why was ist impossible for you to stand your ground on having porcelain handles? I think the fact that he gets his way on so many things starting with these little things makes it easy for him to get his way on everything else. (Until you explode but that is not a healthy way to get power)
Heather, it is impossible to know because I do not know your H at all, but he does seem like a man that tends to feel like he has no control over his life. What is his job like? Does he enjoy it and feel great at it? How do his parents treat him - are they proud of him and respectful of him?
I also addressed some of my concerns in my post to Cobra. I think you are in a tough spot because you do need to consider your H's feelings and try to empathize. At the same time doing that when you do not get the same consideration is a really tough thing. Plus you need to empathize in a way that does not have you aquiescing to him - not an easy task. I have confidence that you are capable of it. I am glad to see that you like the quote "Do not let what you cannot do interfere with what you can." It is appropriate for almost any personal or work situation!!
Good luck!
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
Actually I do not think that Heather's H or her family is the choice she feels at all.
I agree. But that is the very problem, isn’t it? Her H seems to feel that this is very much a problem. So what is she to do? Ignore it? I think her H is extremely insecure, know he f*cked up, has too much pride to admit it, knows that Heather’s family disapproves of his actions, and cannot bring himself to publicly admit it or apologize. So what is Heather of he going to do?
Should he step up to the plate and make this public apology? Should he tell her family what a schmuck he is? How do you think he will expect to be treated? Will Heather’s family welcome him with open arms, assure him they never thought ill of him , that all is ok, that they all love him and want him back in the family, or will they keep quiet or give the impression of “Yeah, you’re a schmuck all right, glad you finally see that. Now don’t do it again.”
With that second scenario, how is he to know where Heather will stand? As an insecure person, why would he put himself out there with such uncertainty? My guess is that he won’t. But if he knew for sure that Heather was on his side, and would stand by him regardless of what her family said, I think he would not feel so defensive and be more willing to tolerate her family, at least in small doses.
This has nothing to do with who or what is right. It only has to do with what it takes to move the marriage past a stuck point, from a realistic stand point of considering personal egos. Getting around the ego is that hardest part of negotiating a marriage, IMO.
I still cannot tell how close we are in opinion or not. The thing that confuses me is that I do not ever read what your opinion is about Heather's personal issue with the marriage.
I’ve stated in the past a lot of what I thought Heather needed to work on regarding her M. She has grown way past that, IMO, and is now on a new level. MY recent comments have less to do with her personal issues than with what it takes to move the marriage forward. On that basis, there are no “sides.” There is only the marriage.
It APPEARS to me when I read your post to Heather that what you are telling her is similar to someone telling you to just accept that there will be no sex in your marriage so get over it.
I don’t see where I ever said this. What I addressed was the stalemate in the M. I know Heather is frustrated. I know in many ways she is right in her position. But so what? Being right won’t convince her H to suddenly turn over a new leaf. In lots of ways the problem is that he is wrong, and he knows it, but he won’t admit to it. There is too much ego involved and too little work on self awareness and developing self confidence. So what is Heather to do?
So why do you appear to think that HEather's point about being in a marriage where she cannot express and have an opinion is not a HUGE problem for her? Why shouldn't her main goal be to a balanced marriage where BOTH of them are capable of having their needs met?
A balanced M is also where I would like to see them get to. I am in complete agreement with the objective. Now, how are they to get there?
Cobra, I was waiting to see if Heather would respond to either of our comments. I am not sure how accurate I am in my view of Heather's struggle, her objective and her H's issues but I will at least try to explain to you what I see as the issues and the steps toward the solution.
IMO, Heather should not admit to a problem (her family, etc.) if she truly feels like the problem does not exist other than in her H's head. However she should still accept her H's feelings as true feelings and listen to him. Heather seems to jump back and forth between placating and appeasing her H and being defiant and (almost) inconsiderate of his feelings. Getting to the point of making it clear that she hears and respects his feelings without giving in to him is the goal as I see it.
I have no idea why Heather's H seems to have a need to be so dominating over Heather and it is troubling for him. This issue definitely should be addressed by him. Whether Heather can get him to see the issue is the question mark. It is similar to many of the other posters here - how do you get them to see their problem and work on it? Heather's H has clear domination in their marriage and family yet he makes comments that sound like he sees himself as the victim in the marriage. From the outside this appears to be someone who does not feel in control of his life so he dominates his own little world. I do not think she can solve the issues with her marriage by continuing to give in to him. It has not worked in the past so I am not sure how it will work in the future. She needs to gather enough strength to convince him to attend marriage counseling with her.
On that basis, there are no "sides."
I am not sure why you wrote that. I was not talking about "sides." I was talking about recognizing her consistent problems with her marriage - that her H does not recognize her needs and does not put her first as far as Heather can tell. Your posts seem to focus more on making sure that his perceptions are treated as facts. For example telling her:
Even if he is 100% guilty of instigating the whole thing, you are still going to have to decide whose side you are on.
What exactly does this mean to you? Does this mean caving on sleeping on the couch, not asking for a kiss, changing the porcelain handles to chrome, letting him put their son to bed at whatever time H decides, not wanting to be around her family because HE is uncomfortable, etc.? She has done many of these things so far and it does not seem to have changed their dynamic. In fact the only time I remember her seeing a glimmer of hope was when she STOOD her ground. So the key SEEMS to be that by Heather standing her ground she has a better chance to have a positive impact than cowing to his demands. That is why I am adamant in Heather (and anyone else's sitch) that listening and hearing her spouse's concerns is important but treating their concerns as fact (if you do not see the concerns as a fact) is not a solution to the problem. The key is to open up communication and see if there is a resolution for both people.
A balanced M is also where I would like to see them get to. I am in complete agreement with the objective. Now, how are they to get there?
My approach would be that Heather MUST listen to her H and make sure she lets him know she hears and respects him WHILE still doing what she needs to do for herself and the marriage she wants. She also needs to stay consistent and strong. Her responsibility is to make it CLEAR to him that everything she is doing is for the sake of their marriage and family. Since she is committed to working on the marriage she needs to make sure that he understands that she wants to know that he is committed also. I am not sure that he understands yet that she does not feel a commitment from him either. (Yes she knows he is committed to the kids and family but that is NOT the same as feeling a commitment to HER)
I may be off-base and I definitely have not written a comprehensive plan for Heather but this is how I see the issues.
I hope she does make one final offer to him to go to LV. However if he insists on being at home with the kids, that is a normal reaction to traveling all the time and she should let him know that she understands.
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
IMO, Heather should not admit to a problem (her family, etc.) if she truly feels like the problem does not exist other than in her H's head.
Where else do these problems exist? They are all emotional/mental issues. They are all in our head (except for medical/physical issues of course).
Getting to the point of making it clear that she hears and respects his feelings without giving in to him is the goal as I see it.
Agreed, even if they are in his head.
I have no idea why Heather's H seems to have a need to be so dominating over Heather and it is troubling for him.
Because he is insecure and has not faced his issues. He controls out of fear.
It is similar to many of the other posters here - how do you get them to see their problem and work on it?
You confront them on it. Over and over and over again.
Heather's H has clear domination in their marriage and family yet he makes comments that sound like he sees himself as the victim in the marriage. From the outside this appears to be someone who does not feel in control of his life so he dominates his own little world.
I do not think her H has clear domination. What control did he have over Heather having an A? I do agree that he feels out of control. That feeling is relative, IMO, because there can always be something to make you feel not in control, yet realizing that something is not a controllable issue allows you to remove it from your-need-to-control list.
I do not think she can solve the issues with her marriage by continuing to give in to him.
Where do you see Heather has continued to give in to him? The problem earlier in her marriage was that both she and her H were locked in a power struggle with neither willing to give in to the other. Recently she has deescalated, and he has responded in kind - to an extent. The remaining things that he cannot give in have little to do with Heather and more to do with him.
She needs to gather enough strength to convince him to attend marriage counseling with her.
What he needs to understand is that she has certain needs and he should be empathic to those needs, rather than only focus on his own needs. If he wants comfort, he might learn that he will get that comfort from Heather in return for him giving comfort to her. He needs to see counseling as the way to ultimately get what he wants.
I am not sure why you wrote that. I was not talking about "sides." I was talking about recognizing her consistent problems with her marriage - that her H does not recognize her needs and does not put her first as far as Heather can tell.
Agreed. Is suspect that he can also say the same thing, that in his eyes, Heather does not put him first.
Your posts seem to focus more on making sure that his perceptions are treated as facts.
I never said his perceptions should be treated as fact. But his perceptions are what there are. They may be biased, one-sided, what ever, but they are what they are. What do you propose to tell him? That he is wrong in how he sees the world? There is no right or wrong. What needs to change are the filters he uses to view the world. What he is currently seeing is exactly correct, through the filters he is currently wearing.
Even if he is 100% guilty of instigating the whole thing, you are still going to have to decide whose side you are on.
What exactly does this mean to you?
What does this mean to you? I was quite clear in my comment. Heather’s H feels like she is not committed to him. Heather’s comments about him seem to confirm this, in my mind. It does not matter that he does something wrong, he will always do something wrong. We all do. What matters is that when he does err, he knows still will still stand by him.
The comments Heather mentioned from her family have a lot of conditionality to them. There is the strong implication (IMO) that her family would accept him IF he did this or that, If he apologized, IF ha had the same values they do, etc….
With Heather and H locked in a power struggle, how is this conditional acceptance going to help their M?
Does this mean caving on sleeping on the couch, not asking for a kiss, changing the porcelain handles to chrome, letting him put their son to bed at whatever time H decides, not wanting to be around her family because HE is uncomfortable, etc.? She has done many of these things so far and it does not seem to have changed their dynamic.
I was not talking about the DIRECT interactions between Heather and her H. You are confusing and blending together two totally separate issues. Versus her family, I think Heather needs to clearly demonstrate she stands with her H. This is no different than a husband who listens to his mother on how his wife should act, clean house, cook, take care of the kids, etc. I think you would see very clearly how that sort of “loyalty” by the H can split a marriage in two by alienating the W. How is Heather’s sitch any different?
OTOH, versus her H only, Heather needs to enforce stronger and more consistent boundaries.
In fact the only time I remember her seeing a glimmer of hope was when she STOOD her ground. So the key SEEMS to be that by Heather standing her ground she has a better chance to have a positive impact than cowing to his demands.
Exactly.
That is why I am adamant in Heather (and anyone else's sitch) that listening and hearing her spouse's concerns is important but treating their concerns as fact (if you do not see the concerns as a fact) is not a solution to the problem.
How can you or anyone else define a “fact” when it concerns a person’s feeling? If Heather’s H feels that she sides with her family over him, who is to say what the real “facts” are? This whole issue is about validation, which is a big issue because there is little trust, which in turn is lacking because there are such deep insecurities and fears.
You ask in your post: It is similar to many of the other posters here - how do you get them to see their problem and work on it?
The problem is circular, IMO. FOO issues block objectivity and a person can only see the “truth” through his/her own filters. Yet that biased outlook block the ability to see the need to work on the FOO. Reactivity keeps focus on actions, reactions, power, control – all things that are external to the person, manifestations or symptoms, but not the heart of the problem.
So how do you get to the address the heart of the problem? Not by ignoring those outside manifestations. Doing so only makes the person act out in a stronger way.
My approach would be that Heather MUST listen to her H and make sure she lets him know she hears and respects him WHILE still doing what she needs to do for herself and the marriage she wants.
Right, stand with HIM not with her family.
Since she is committed to working on the marriage she needs to make sure that he understands that she wants to know that he is committed also.
Agreed, but taking the same position as her family is not going to make him feel like she is committed to him, is it? So in his eyes, he might be wondering whose side is she on, his or her family’s?
I have some comments I'd like to make, but I'm extremely busy at work and my DSL connection has been jacked up so I haven't been able to get on at night. I'll respond as soon as I can.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
why was ist impossible for you to stand your ground on having porcelain handles? I think the fact that he gets his way on so many things starting with these little things makes it easy for him to get his way on everything else. (Until you explode but that is not a healthy way to get power)
It wasn't impossible for me to stand my ground, but I guess I don't care enough about porcelain handles to take a stand on the issue. I'm like 'who cares'?! I thought they would look nice, but I'm not going to throw a fit about it or become entrenched in a power struggle over the handles to the bathroom faucets. I guess that's why I was saying his reaction was ridiculous...it's just so silly to have such an intense reaction. Even if I wasn't fond of porcelain handles, if he was fond enough of them to prefer them over the chrome handles, that would be good enough for me. But hey, that's me. And that's me on so many issues, it's just not worth a huge fight. And make no mistake, everything we've ever disagreed on, if I try to push my opinion, it becomes a huge fight.
Heather, it is impossible to know because I do not know your H at all, but he does seem like a man that tends to feel like he has no control over his life. What is his job like? Does he enjoy it and feel great at it? How do his parents treat him - are they proud of him and respectful of him?
I know, I don't get it. He has claimed that I am controlling and I know if I was I would probably be either blind to it or reluctant to admit it, but I know controlling women and I am not like them. I don't care enough about details to try to control other peoples' lives....I'm indecisive/neutral about many of the details in my OWN life. So, let's look at it from another perspective. If someone is very controlling and there is something that someone is fighting them on, wouldn't it be natural for the controlling person to see the other person as the one who is INSISTING on having their way and preventing them from getting what they want? Which could also be perceived as someone trying to control them? My H has control issues, I think everybody sees that. Even his mother has used to word where he is concerned. And there are certain issues she happens to think I should push, such as the bedtime. She just has no idea how far her son will take things in order to get his way. I've tried to indicate that pushing for my way has led to practically a tug of war with our son, but I don't know if she sees that as a mutual problem or if she sees H as responsible. He seems to like his job, his parents are very respectful of him. If someone isn't, they are no longer in his life. My oldest brother was not respectful of H because he didn't like him-H will never step foot in his house again. Which, of course, limits/interferes with my ability to see him. Most days, that's ok with me because I do agree my brother is a creep. However, he's still my brother and I just don't see the point in carrying these deep grudges.
I think you are in a tough spot because you do need to consider your H's feelings and try to empathize. At the same time doing that when you do not get the same consideration is a really tough thing. Plus you need to empathize in a way that does not have you aquiescing to him - not an easy task.
You're not kidding. I had a situation recently that tested my skills. Since H is out of town, I am obviously taking care of our children. S6 remembered a while back when I told him if he stayed in his bed without getting up for 7 nights in a row, I would get him a prize. It's been months since I told him that, but kids don't forget and since H is gone and I usually make him stay in his bed anyway, it was a convenient time for him to remember that bargain Anyway, I told him I remembered and he said he wanted to do it. I said ok and didn't say another word about it. On the morning after the 7th night, S6 informed me he had stayed in his bed as promised and would like his toy. So, we went to Wal Mart that night and got his prize. His sister did not get a prize because now that she has her 'big girl bed', I've been having trouble with her asking for tons of things and getting up to go potty, for one more kiss, etc. So she didn't get a prize. That night, S6 told H that he got a prize for staying in his bed for 7 nights in a row. Then I could hear S6 say "What are you going to talk to Mommy about? Daddy, I want to know...". So, I pretty much knew H was going to have some things to say about it. Later that night when I got a chance to talk to H, he didn't even say hi to me, just went straight into 'What is THAT all about?' I told him he needed to explain what he meant by THAT. He said 'you're taking a pretty big initiative upon yourself don't you think?' I said 'H, you and I have talked and talked about S6's bedtime routine. It's no secret we don't agree on it'. H said 'So, you REWARD him for staying in his bed?' I said 'Yes, that's how it works'. He said 'Well maybe I'll reward him for getting up 7 nights in a row'. I said 'H, I am here taking care of our children and this is how I parent, this is who I am'. He said 'Well, we'll see how I parent when I get home'. I said 'OOOOH, whatever H I'm going now'. And I hung up the phone. I have mixed feelings about hanging up on him. On one hand, hanging up on someone is no way to resolve an issue, nor is it very respectful. However, on the other hand, it was quite apparent to me that H was not in a place to resolve any issues, his purpose was to intimidate me. The next day, he would not talk to me, so I said playfully, 'Are you pouting honey? Don't pout...' This all happened Friday night. By Sunday he was fine and speaking to me again. So, I can't tell if I did a good job defusing the situation or if he is just taking solace in the fact that he will be home today, Monday, and things will go back to his way. It's frustrating. As always
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
Fearless said: Actually I do not think that Heather's H or her family is the choice she feels at all.
Cobra said: I agree. But that is the very problem, isn’t it? Her H seems to feel that this is very much a problem. So what is she to do? Ignore it? I think her H is extremely insecure, know he f*cked up, has too much pride to admit it, knows that Heather’s family disapproves of his actions, and cannot bring himself to publicly admit it or apologize.
I would just like to clarify that my family doesn't expect a public admission or apology, although I think they would respect H a great deal if he did. What they DO expect, is for him to apologize to ME for some of his wrongdoings. My family does not expect H to like them or to be nice to them-they expect him to be nice to ME.
I think that H feels intimidated when my family is around because he has become so accustomed to being surrounded by only his family, around whom he feels accepted, supported and comfortable. I don't think he likes it when I have my support network near me and he tries to make me feel guilty about it. Now, in typical control environments, that's what the controlling person does. They try to isolate their victim from the people who support them. I can see that H does that, with my family, with karate, even with my own kids.
This has nothing to do with who or what is right. It only has to do with what it takes to move the marriage past a stuck point, from a realistic stand point of considering personal egos. Getting around the ego is that hardest part of negotiating a marriage, IMO.
Well, this isn't all about my ego and I'm not even going to consider such a thing as 'my H or my family'. I will not give a second thought to something so utterly crazy. Someone who loves me would NOT be asking me to choose between them and my family whom I see MAYBE twice a year!!! My situation is not like Chrome's where my parents live down the street and are always in our business.
MY recent comments have less to do with her personal issues than with what it takes to move the marriage forward. On that basis, there are no “sides.” There is only the marriage.
Well, as far as I can see, I've been shouldering the work that goes on regarding this M. H throws me a crumb now and then and it keeps me holding on. I will not be moving the M forward by myself forever.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
Her responsibility is to make it CLEAR to him that everything she is doing is for the sake of their marriage and family.
How does doing things against my H's wishes acting on behalf of the M and the family? How is saying 'f you, I'm doing what I want' for the benefit of the family? That's H talking by the way and he is the king of turning things around regarding items as small as porcelain handles on the faucets.
I cannot prove to H that I am committed if H wants to fight me on it. So far, he has chosen to fight me on it and think of ways that I have demonstrated that in fact I am NOT committed.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
Where do you see Heather has continued to give in to him? The problem earlier in her marriage was that both she and her H were locked in a power struggle with neither willing to give in to the other. Recently she has deescalated, and he has responded in kind - to an extent. The remaining things that he cannot give in have little to do with Heather and more to do with him.
Cobra, I don't get why you say this. Things have in fact calmed down, but only because I've stopped fighting. When you say the 'remaining things' that H cannot give....what exactly do you see him giving? I see him giving some emotionally, but as far as situational control, I don't see where he has given anything. All of the problems I've posted about in the past still exist. The difference is that I've recognized that I cannot change him, nor can I beat him. So I don't directly challenge him anymore and I've come along way with letting him get me riled up emotionally. I just don't see this as a two sided event yet.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
That said, why was ist impossible for you to stand your ground on having porcelain handles? I think the fact that he gets his way on so many things starting with these little things makes it easy for him to get his way on everything else. (Until you explode but that is not a healthy way to get power)
Anyway, I told him I remembered and he said he wanted to do it. I said ok and didn't say another word about it. On the morning after the 7th night, S6 informed me he had stayed in his bed as promised and would like his toy. So, we went to Wal Mart that night and got his prize. His sister did not get a prize because now that she has her 'big girl bed', I've been having trouble with her asking for tons of things and getting up to go potty, for one more kiss, etc. So she didn't get a prize. 