Ya know, in re-reading this thread, i feel that I come accross as "shooting down" advice from others. This is not, I assure you, my intent. While I have attempted most, if not all, of the suggestions offered her, I find the catharsis of laying out my feelings/experiences here to be worth it. PLEASE keep the responses comming. Even if I have been there done that, got the t-shirt, it may be that there is some nugget that I have missed or someones observation of a blind spot that I may have that helps me to put things in a better perspective. OTOH, It may be that I simply need to pack it in and move on.
In that vein I think, that, to some extent I already have. I feel my emotional ramparts being erected daily. While I know that this is counter to effective communication, I feel that after 12 + years of negitive messages and emotional distance/manipulation by her to be more than enough time to accept the abuse. Make no mistake, I consider what she does and how she acts to be abuse. It just took almost 13 years for me to come to terms with this reality.
I may have already said all that I'm about to say, but I actually went back and re-read a letter my H had written to me once again telling me it was over and why. Now that I'm viewing it in a different light (we are ok now), I see that a lot of what had happened were HIS issues and the A's and the fact that he really DID NOT communicate enough w/ me on how he was feeling/what he was thinking all along.
We got pregnant 2 wks after we got married. Thus began our married life together. He began feeling neglected immediately after our 1st was born, but always felt like he didn't want to express any of these feelings to me thinking I would feel badly and he just tried to make things easier for me.
Therefore, I never knew what he was feeling and couldn't do anything about it. Therefore, he ended up having an A on his first deployment when our first boy was not even 2 yrs old.
This seemed to continue throughout our M -- he felt rejected sexually, rejected emotionally, etc. and thought if he just tried to make things better for me, all would be well. Well, I didn't know what he was doing by "trying to make things better for me" and I didn't know how he was truly feeing. He just acted like everything was ok.
Now, had he actually sat me down & talked to me about everything, would I have responded appropriately all those years ago? I don't know the answer to that. As the years went by, I did end up responding angrily or defensively when he did try to talk to me about certain things so I don't know how I would have reacted all those years ago.
However, when he dropped the D bomb and I realized how serious things were and realized that Divorce was in his vocabulary and a very real possiibilty, I didn't just do 180's, I did a complete 360.
In other threads, I have posted how very fulfilled and happy I am now that I have an adult R back w/ my H. All these years, I have been trying to be the "mom" I thought I should be and had foregone the adult R w/ my H for numerous reasons. I didn't realize what I was missing and now that we are back (kind of) to where we need to be, my life is fulfilled in more ways than I imagined and all the stress, etc. that I had actually been kind of "taking out on" H, isn't as bad as I thought it all was. Maybe I feel more supported now that I'm supporting back or something. Before, I didn't realize that support & help was what he was trying to give me and I wasn't accepting.
I even took over all of the housework that I had been allowing to go to the wayside as well and he had ended up taking over and feeling resentful toward me about. Even all of this is not as "hard" as I thought it was. I do have the time to get everything done. I quit going to bed immediately after the boys went to bed and got things done and spent time w/ H just one on one and I found that this was very fulfilling as well.
All I'm trying to say I guess is that when we wives, moms, etc. are in this mode of feeling overwhelmed w/ everything -- work, children, household, etc. and have kind of lost who we even are because we don't even know anymore, we have blinders on to what is important. We end up feeing resentful toward our H and take our stresses out on them instead of putting in the effort to actually have an R w/ our H and finding that that is what we need to feel fulfilled and help us get through the daily grind.
I have said before that I don't know what, if anything, can be done besides the "last resort" of the D bomb to get your W to wake up and realize all of this. Sitting down and being very sincere about how serious these problems are could work. I don't feel my H ever truly did that. By the time he started talking like D was an option, he had already made up his mind that there was nothing we could do to "work" on our M. So it took the D bomb to get my a$$ in gear and work on my M and myself to get my M back and I'm so very glad it happened and we are where we are now.
I'm not trying to take over your thread w/ my sitch, but w/ you and Fiji, I see a lot of similarities -- I don't think we realize (and I don't think my H even still realizes) how common these problems are that we are having or have had.
I hope these insights can help a little bit.
Me: 38 H: 35 S4, S5, S10 Bomb 01/07 Wanted D - nothing would change his mind Numerous A's prior to D bomb; EA prior/during D bomb Piecing 04/07 Deployed for a year 05/07 Still Piecing 2010 M 11 yrs 05/10
What is she like towards other people, including your kids?
Does she have any sort of joy or pleasure in her life?
Do you think she might be depressed?
Is life generally difficult for her -- anxiety, stress, etc.
(Sorry if you've already answered and I've missed it.)
I am not really sure how to answer this. She is very upbeat and happy seeming with other people. ESP with our familys. It is a very good imitation of the "everythin is OK here, move along, nothing to see" At times she seems fine. but tired. Other times she can be very very wound up. She has complained of being overwhelmed. At these times I am sure to be VERY available to take the kids out and just give her space. I do plenty around the house and just in general, but when she is especially wound up, I make it a point to be an eggshell dancer and get the kids out and about to give her breathing space.
Depressed? I again don't know. Her view on depression is that it a selfish/self absorbed thing and would never admit to being depressed. At best she acts offended, annoyed, and dissatisfied.
"In other threads, I have posted how very fulfilled and happy I am now that I have an adult R back w/ my H. All these years, I have been trying to be the "mom" I thought I should be and had foregone the adult R w/ my H for numerous reasons. I didn't realize what I was missing and now that we are back (kind of) to where we need to be, my life is fulfilled in more ways than I imagined and all the stress, etc. that I had actually been kind of "taking out on" H, isn't as bad as I thought it all was. Maybe I feel more supported now that I'm supporting back or something. Before, I didn't realize that support & help was what he was trying to give me and I wasn't accepting.
I even took over all of the housework that I had been allowing to go to the wayside as well and he had ended up taking over and feeling resentful toward me about. Even all of this is not as "hard" as I thought it was. I do have the time to get everything done. I quit going to bed immediately after the boys went to bed and got things done and spent time w/ H just one on one and I found that this was very fulfilling as well."
This is what I mean. If I felt like there was ANY concern, or ANY interest, or ANY understanding of my need to feel wanted, loved and desired, I think that as a natural progression, I would be much more in a place to address her issues. Now, bear in mind that during our marriage, I have really tried to "take away" the complaints by addressing them one at a time and be sensitive to her needs. In retrospect, I did it more as a means to an end and have develpoed a profound resentment based on ZERO attempts by her to address her side of the fence. I am of the opinion that if she really was so dissatisfied with me simply because there were dishes in the sink or trash that needed to be taken out, my attempts to address these issues would have had some success in changing her view of me. Further, If it really was all about the delegation of household duties, she would have been willing to WRITE DOWN SOME HONEY DO'S in an effort to help me help her. These , along with other factors, leads me to beleive that it is not about the housework. It is about me or about her on some fundemental level. What, I have no idea. All I can say is that right now we are roommates and very much emotionally divorced. I know that this is a real and not imagined state of affairs, because, historicly, I would be falling all over myself to do anything to "bring her back" if only for a week or two before repeating the cycle all over again. Now, I am in complete withdrawal, and retreat. Speaking when spoken to, one or two word answers , kind of passive aggressive( which I am really, really, trying not to be) as well as geeting my own life in a state of preparedness for a very possible divorce. (working out, attending to career issues, and operating from a place behind my defenses). None of this was, at first, a consious effort, it just kind of happened. After realizing what I was doing, and then watching her response (or lack thereof), I have determined that she knows full well that there is something very, very, wrong but that , once again, it is all on me. It is my fault, or choice (which in some respects it is), and that it is up to me to fix everything. How could she possibly have ANY responsibility in this? She is the superMOM. She is the one who does EVERYTHING!!! My contributions are a bare minimum. They are REQUIRED. They carry no weight. I should be doing MORE. Nevermind that she works three days a week, (I work 50 to 60 hours a week and have to be away from my family one or two weeks a month) Nevermind that no matter what she asks me to do I DO IT. Nevermind that I have always been available to meet her physiologial needs regardless of the motives behind it (Insecurity,worry, guilt, anything but wanting to be with me) Nevermind that I have ALWAYS been available emotionally for her when she needed it. Nevermind that I have lived in a "Once-a-month at best sexual relationship with her for 13 freaking years and don't complain because I know how upset she gets" Nevermind that I work very, very hard to be attentive to her and the kids. Nevermind that my needs HAVE NEVER BEEN MET.
The cooking and cleaning she does for me and the family is appreciated and she is told that. However, I AM CAPABLE AND WILLING OF DOING THAT FOR MYSELF AND THE FAMILY. It does not meet any of my NEEDS. What I NEED, what I can not do for myself, is put my arms around myself and tell me I love me. What I cant do for myself is let me know that I am desireable. That I am wanted. That I am handsome, strong, and virile, that I am a good lover and that I want more of me. That my contributions are EVEN SEEN.
WOW....Where did all that come from? Sorry for the rant. That really took a departure form the response did'nt it. Sorry guys. Rant over.
WOW....Where did all that come from? Sorry for the rant. That really took a departure form the response did'nt it. Sorry guys. Rant over.
No apology necessary! Please vent here, or somewhere.
I just have a few minutes (literally) right now to respond, I'll try to write a better response later.
Obviously, you are holding all this inside -- and, it's backfiring. You have had no one to talk to about this, and the one you most need and want to understand is your wife, and well, it sounds like she's not really available right now.
At a minimum, please talk here and get some of it out. I'm guessing over most of these 13 years you have swallowed most of what you need to feel -- since, letting it out and in the open with your wife seems dangerous. If so, that surely has taken a significant toll on you.
I have been there very recently in the withdrawn/don't-want-to-be-passive-aggressive-but-probably-am mode. I partly got out by getting to have sex (having waited over four months), and partly because my wife is taking steps to help us make progress (scheduled a MC visit).
I recall one conversation where my wife was very hard on me ("You're lazy, unambitions, don't make enough money, etc.), and it became clear she had been oblivious to all that I had done to make her life bearable with the kids, etc. I'd never talk to her like that. And, in someways, I feel directly responsible for her capacity at this point to have a pleasant/happy life. It was shocking, and very difficult to swallow. I can't quite express how much so.
But, I suppose, at the time when her life was hell and mine was too (as a result), she really didn't have the capacity to understand how much help I was giving her.
I'm starting to think none of that matters, though. What matters is the fact you need to feel loved by her, and you don't. She either doesn't know or doesn't care. To spend time trying to talk about anything other than that with her may not get you anywhere -- sort of taking your eye off the ball.
She's got to be made to understand how bad you are feeling about this. How to do this in a productive manner I have no idea. And, maybe she is completely self-absorbed, or incapable of feeling "love" towards anyone but her kids -- I don't know. But, my hunch is talk about any other "problems" in the relationship is likely to result in just going around in circles.
Well, I got to go for now. I hope my off-the-cuff response isn't counter productive....I usually give these things more time and editing. Bottom line, don't censor yourself here. Find somewhere to vent (here is fine).
Have you ever told her that you do not feel loved by her (or, whatever it is you feel or don't feel)?
Have you considered being very honest with her about what has been going on inside of you, starting by talking about the elephant in the room -- that you've been short and "in a bad mood"?
Gee, I don't want to put words in your mouth or assume I understand how you feel, but I'm wondering if you've had a conversation like this (or see any potential value in having one):
"You've probably noticed I've been very distant and short lately..." "I don't want you to misunderstand why. Do you have any idea why?" "Well, that's very interesting, I can see how you might think that, I guess, but the real reason is that I'm finding it difficult to be around you, because...." "I don't feel like you even care if I feel loved..." "I have a need to feel/know/____________________and either you think this is a foolish need, or you don't understand how important it is to me, or you just don't care." "I'm starting to feel like which it is doesn't really matter..." "Something really has to change, or I fear our relationship is doomed...I already feel like, emotionally, we are, irreversibly, separating -- and I don't know how to stop it."
Again, I don't know how you are really feeling. What I'm wondering is if you've even come close to telling her what is really happening inside of you, and what you need and are not getting.
I just read my last post and really regret writing it that way. The nerve of me to be so specific!
What I was trying to get at was have you ever really tried to talk to her and focus on what you need from her, are not getting, and are feeling miserable about?
I think it was you that said she is good at turning it around and making it about her needs (cleaning, etc.). Just wondering if you can somehow refuse to let her change the subject.
Hey Tired of pain from your rant I see alot of things that I used to identify with quite alot there was a book that I read that really helped me. I have recomeded the book here before to other men who seem to be to "nice" its a book by a Dr.Glover called " No more mr nice guy " check it out it may help you see things in a different way. I will say that the title is a bit of poor choice for the book, but probably was good for sales.
One of the things that Dr.Glover talks about is "covert contracts" that is doing things for others with the hope that they will respond in the way that you want. Usually this contract has to do with women and sex. When the person doesn't respond in the way we would like resentment builds up, the problem is that they did not know the what the "deal" was.
At the heart of the book is the idea of being less passive agressive, aproval seeking and learning to get your needs met. He has specific exercises to guide you through this process, its a small book but quite good.
Thanks for the resposes all. I must say that are, very close to, spot on. She and I had a mini-conversation regarding the current state of affairs. Seems she thought I had checked out for a completely different reason than I had. She related that she was needing to be able to communicate her feelings with me, but that I was unavailable. I CAREFULLY took the opportunity to inform her of the reason why I was checked out and let her know how the way things are was affecting me. This was not a very detailed discussion, but the main issues were brought up.... sort of. and I feel like she knows that my emotional availability is profoundly influenced by the level of acceptance/love I feel from her. In other words , I was sure to let her know that I truly want to be available for her, but that it had become more and more difficult to do that, to be emotionaly exposed to her, when I felt kind of like a tool. A tool to be used when I was needed and not really loved or wanted nessesarily. In a weird way, I think she knew EXACTLY what I was talking about. She knew what she was doing already. In fairness to her, she has been under A LOT of strain on other issues that are not directly related to our marriage. I have always been consious of this. It is a major reason that I have put off addressing the isses that we currently have. It is just that the repetitive nature of the "love you wnat you/ you are annoying and I wish I never married you" cycle had finally taken its toll on me. I just have had enough and am bummed about being on the bottom of the priority list (if I am on it at all). Anyway, I am really making an effort to allow myself to be willing to open up again to her. I struggle with this as I am not at all sure that I can do this again. However, I am willing totry and I am hopeful that things work out better.
