With Whore/Madonna, from what I've learned so far it's not a matter of just staying off the internet, avoiding porn, masturbating excessively....or whatever it is he does. It literally is a matter of learning to view sexuality differently, to learn to view his wife differently, to learn to view sex within his marriage...differently. I'm still not sure if Passionate1's H has it either, but I can explain from my experience with my H and Heywyre seems to have a parallel story.
For my H his view of sex is that you don't have sex with someone you respect, that is viewed as something dirty that you do with someone you have no respect for, no feelings for. Now, my H has a great deal admiration, love, and respect for me. He had put me on a pedestal and viewed me as the perfect wife/mother (I'm not but he treated me as such.) So, sex...for anything other than procreation was not something he thought about when it came to me, and even then it was to get it over with and always exactly the same thing, no extras. He would literally NEVER approach me for it, I alway had to initiate something and then it was over so fast I would be left wondering if I actually had sex.
When he would go online for his sexual fix on Adult Friend Finder he would find women that fit a very typical stereotype of what many people would perceive as a slut, their online persona would elicit that reaction. His IM's with these women were VERY sexual in nature, it was a side I NEVER saw. These were women he would NEVER have gotten involved with in any other capacity, they were to be used for sex and that was it. These were women that he could get his "dirty" sexual fix with and defile BECAUSE that's what they were for (in his mind.) Fortunatey for me, he never physically cheated on me with anyone, but it's not uncommon for someone with Whore/Madonna.
In order for him to begin to work past this once it was identified (and it was identified when I installed a keylogger and discovered his activities) yes, he did have to end his online activities...but that was the minor, easier part for him to do. He's STILL working on trying to view me as the sexual woman that I am. He's STILL working on learning that a healthy sexual, mutually fulfilling relationship is a good and healthy thing in a marriage. He's literally having to retrain his brain to think about this differently, to reconcile that someone he loves and respects has an inner porn star as part of her sexual side...and that is not an easy thing for him to come to terms with.
He's been through counseling for several months after my discovery...we've only stopped going within the last few months because now we're at a point where NOW it's something he just has to get used to and become comfortable with the fact that it's ok. He's doing better, but it's going to take....heck, I don't know how much more time before he becomes really comfortable with it. He may never truly be completely comfortable with it, but he may. Fact is now though, he's aware of it and he makes an effort to meet my needs now....and has stayed away from his previous activities.
Oh, I forgot to answer your question about what I did with the info from the keylogger....I confronted him. In my view....he had been cheating on me and that's how we dealt with that. That's how our MC dealt with it and in order to rebuild my trust in him he did the things a cheating spouse would have to in order to help heal me and regain my trust. He's done those things without question.
In a strange way, her doing this makes her very sexy.
That's because if you think sex is bad, you also think bad is sexy. My 2bx consistently expressed desire if I in any way threatened to leave or find another man to meet my needs. I mean, everybody is this way to some extent. God knows, I have my own "bad boy" fantasies but you're never going to be able to function sexually in a "good" relationship if you can't figure out a way to appreciate a jolly, friendly f*ck or "play" at being "bad" rather than really living it.
Passion, Since your relationship is good except for the sex, I would suggest that you read "Passionate Marriage" by Schnarch. It's a thick piece of material but it might be helpful in your sich. The Schnarchian Bar Scenario might work for you if you can imagine yourself in the course of a normal loving non-sexual evening being bold enough to turn to your H and say "Since you are clearly not interested in meeting my needs, I'm going to go out to the bar and see if I might meet somebody who can. I would greatly prefer having sex with you so I hope that you will follow me to the bar and be the one who propositions me.". Theoretically, doing this sort of thing will have the same effect on your H that 12-51 experienced only after his wife had given up and decided to leave. The trick is that you have to be brave enough to do it but also feeling loving rather than angry or sad about your situation. Tough mental space to achieve. Then you basically have to wash/rinse/repeat until just a little hint that you might head for the bar is enough to get him aroused. I am taking great liberties and greatly simplifying what Schnarch has to say with this example but I really think it might work for you.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
There were problems in my childhood and I was told early on that sex was a bad thing. I think that I've always viewed sex as a thing that you just didn't talk about. I never caught my parents doing anything. I hardly ever even saw them kiss or hug.
When I was dating in high school, college, pre-marriage it always a lot of fun because I was doing something that was "wrong." I was being "bad".
I wonder if this is something I should look into more?
Just curious....what have you "said" to him when you've addressed the fact that you need HIM to initiate sex?
You didn't mention whether or not you've ever talked to him about this, so I'm really hoping that you have.
FWIW, after 12_51 asked about Whore/Madonna with your H...I'm not convinced he has that, so more info would be very helpful.
Oh and FWIW...sex 2-3 times per month, for many people is not a lack of sex, that is still a very regular sex life. There are many people who would prefer more, some who would prefer less....but that is still a regular sex life.
I want you to know though, this isn't about YOU. There are many of us women here who can sympathize with what it feels like to not have your man pursue you at all sexually....and it's excrutiating, but it's about HIM, not you....ok? I know how personal this feels to you and it hurts like hell, but I'll remind you again....it's nothing about how pretty you are, how sexy you are, how thin you are...none of that. This is about something going on inside him. Please remind yourself of that daily.
True that it really is something that is in him. However, other factors can and do play into it too. Pressuring him, pushing him may only make it worse. Are there any other things in the marriage that are problem areas? Finances? New business?
Greeneyedlass,
I'm interested in how you view the Whore/Madonna problem in your marriage. Are you blaming him? Is it his fault? Is it something that he has, however no fault of his own? Is it an illness? How you view it may also effect how he's able to recover from it.
No it's not an illness, it's more of a conditioning. Much of it starts with his FOO issues and how sex was viewed in his family and how he was raised.
So, is it his fault? Absolutely not. Did he know right from wrong? Yes, the actions he took to meet his sexual needs were wrong and hurtful, THAT part was his fault. At any given time he could have admitted what he was doing...at the very least to our therapist....but he didn't. Although our therapist honestly believes he was trying to get the courage up to do so when I found out. Perhaps that's WHY I found out...he began to get careless and I got fed up.
Now that I know how he views sex I can help him address it, so can our MC when we see her. Much of his issues in our M and his hiding what he was doing from me was that he really didn't trust that I am indeed the type of woman I say I am. He didn't trust that what I said was what I meant...that I wanted the type sex he was looking for, that it was supposed to be a part of a healthy marriage etc. He is 47 this month...he's had well over 43 years of conditioning to maintain this view on sex....it takes time to change that view.
The pastor's don't have the skills to deal with this. Not a slam against them or the Bible--I love both dearly. The first pastor had us read "His needs/Her needs" and keep a journal, our current pastor's advice is for me to do the initiating. If his advice was to be submissive, then yes, I'd wait till hell itself froze over because he doesn't "seem" to have a need. The first counselor simply told him "she wants you, go have sex." No lie. This last couselor has been having him step up the romance, but other than that I do not know what they talk about.
As for porn, This may sound SO niave (sp?), but I've asked him outright (heck, I've even ask him is he was gay) and he says that he doesn't look at anything like that. And I do believe him. As for the computer thing, we have cleaninter.net and nothing gets by that baby. I can't even buy langerie or romance novels online However, he is away at the firehouse 24hrs a day and they have "websense" now that I think about it, so no go there either. Never found anything as much as "naughty" hidden away anywhere. I can also rule out other women. He has a cell and is either at work or here with me and the kids.
I do know one thing, he orgasms quick and it bothers him. But I've never made it an issue because he always cares for my needs first. Lately, he has taken viagra.
All that aside, I think his mind just doesn't think of sex as fun and great and okay to need. But what on earth do I do about that? I'm thinking of hypnosis...anyone have thougts on this?
Thanks for writing. It makes me feel less alone--although I am sorry for anyone else to have these type of problems...
I will give you my perspective on the Whore/Madonna thingee, whether you like it or not - lol
Since I "discovered" that is what my H has (and I am 99.99% sure of it) it has made a WHOLE lot of difference as to how I view it. I don't condone what he did by any stretch of the imagination. However, I kind of look at it differently.
For instance, when I found out my H was calling/seeing an escort, even that made it different. As much as it was disgusting to me (and now I find out that is what is "normal" to him) I at least knew the deep rooted love affair was not there. I am not saying there wasn't an emotional attachment, because there was but not the kind that he would leave me for. He even said "never did I ever consider leaving the marriage" - WTH eh?
It is a VERY complex problem and I don't know if we will ever be able to get to the root of it. My H is 62 years old and pretty set in his ways.
GEL - by the way, he is still playing the "nothing happened" card, although he does at times seem a little uneasy
Heywyre
M - 57 H - 65 1st A-bomb - Nov 27/02 2nd A-bomb - Dec 13/06 together 21 years *************************** Insanity is doing something over and over and expecting different results (Albert Einstein)
I somehow missed some of the posts before I wrote the last response, so here answers several questions:
Yes, I've talked to him about my need for him to initiate. His idea of initiating however, is to wait until I'm dressed in a sexy piece of something, candles lit, music playing, glasses of wine poured, etc....I still have to be the one to do everything.
I've told him that it's important for him to pursue me sometimes because it makes me feel that he loves me, he wants me, he desires me. I've told him that me always doing the initiating makes me feel like I'm chasing a rabbit that doesn't want to be caught. I've told him I'd be willing to meet him halfway, but that it really is a need on my part. I notice I am turned on just by him making an unexpected advance even in the middle of the day. (every once in awhile the moon does look a little blue)
As for 2-3 times a month being normal, I don't accept that. That's what has happened in our society because folks are worn out working 2 jobs and caring for kids, jobs, and keeping up with the joneses, and watching too much TV. Perhaps that's why there are so many affairs and broken marriages these days... (just my opinion, I have it on authority that everybody has one
12-51, Probably is a pressure in his mind. Never thought about it that way as I thought men were turned on (or at least their self-esteem would be lifted) by a woman chasing them around saying she can't get enough of him...still can't grasp it as being a pressure...but, yes, we do okay, but I'm a stay at home Mom (finances) and we do have two little ones to take care of...
I know that the sex issue became a "wedge" for my W and I. She'd push and I'd pull back. I don't think either of us realized it. I did feel pressured --- it was like I was always being told I had to initiate it, it was no longer "my" decision. There were times, when I did try to start something, she would say that it was too late at night. Or could we wait until the morning?
I do know that I didn't initiate nearly as much as I should have.
However, he is away at the firehouse 24hrs a day and they have "websense" now that I think about it, so no go there either. Never found anything as much as "naughty" hidden away anywhere. I can also rule out other women. He has a cell and is either at work or here with me and the kids.