Down and dirty: 36yo (ME) 33yo(SHE), two great kids, one in grade school one in high school. Over the course of 13 years of marriage, we traditionaly have had sex once a month. MAX. In the past 9 months we have had sex 3 times. Two of those times were back to back around Christmas time and once was a month prior. The time in November was because she was feeling "insecure" about me and the lack of sex and my time on the road. This had nothing to do with me, it was solely to comfort her insecurities. It should be understood that our marriage has been "strained" pretty much from the honeymoon. In fact it was told to me during the argument on our honeymoon, that she felt she had made a mistake and never should have married me. Perfect. During the ensueing years, there have been MULTIPLE threats of divorce by her. AT LEAST ONCE A YEAR. Anytime things were not going her way she would drop that bomb, knowing that I would fold and placate her. Lately this has changed as I am un-willing to play that particular control game. Before I go further , please know that I understand that I am just as much to blame for our issues right now. I am far from perfect. There are plenty of things I have worked on/am working on to be more helpful to her around the house for instance. However, I have never said things to her designed to cause pain. Never. She knows that I am naturally insecure in some areas and uses them to manipulate me. Currently, I feel as though I have been pushed as far away as I can get without actually moving out and filing for divorce. We are roommates. In bed I am dedicated to her orgasm. It is truly what makes it enjoyable for me. Any way I can get her there I love to do it. Unfortunately, for the past two years I have been suffering from the "wisdom of the penis" I.E. I have so little emotional trust in her that things just done work. In order to perform for the last two years, I have been "chemicly enhanced". Things are really really a mess. I am doubtful that things can be fixed as we have ZERO communication. I have tried to get her to go with me to councilling, and have gone by myself to try to gain the tools I will need to survive a dead marriage. The lack of sex has really put the zap on my head. I was begining to re-develop my sense of confidence, but this past year has just evaporated any progress in that area. I have never cheated, and really dont think I could. A major problem(s) for me is the lack of trust, lack of communication, and lack of anything remotely approaching intamacy. I have, over the years, developed some major league resentment. On the silver lining side, My children and I enjoy a solid relationship, I am involved in activities outside the marriage, and am well versed in leaving her alone to do her own thing. I am simply at the end of my rope. I crave someone to love on me. I crave affection of some kind. The coldness is absolutely deadly to me. I am tired of feeling as lonely and alone in my own home, surrounded by those I love the most, as I do when I am on the road. Don't know why I am posting, other than to get it all out as best I can. I really have no one else to talk to about all this. I would love to talk with my wife(roommate) but there is just no way this will not degrade into a major "blamestorming" session. HOPELESS!!!!
Sounds to me like you two are lacking "intimacy" & communication. Intimacy not just in the sexual form...but in general in your marriage.
May I ask why you stayed in this marriage after she told you shortly after you were married that "she felt she had made a mistake and never should have married you?" What kept you there...besides the fact that you had just taken vows?
Why do you think she continually threatens divorce? Does she have a pattern of running away from issues? It's obviously a defelction techinque so she can shut you down and not address an issue, which worked for her....but I'm curious about her history.
What have you communicated to her? You say you two have ZERO communication...but how do you think things can be fixed without fixing the communication issue? You two MUST fix this in order to address the intimacy issue.
I would suggest you finding a MC, making an appointment and telling her you would like her to go with you. If she says no and threatens divorce...go anyway. Tell her she's responsible for her own choices...and don't take that bait.
Do things for you, things that make you happy....working out, taking up a hobby, spending time with your kids....with or without her. That can often lead to you appearing more interesting in her eyes. Another thing (sorry writing this a bit disjointedly)...do you think you may appear needy to her? If so, that's a major turnoff to women....especially women with kids. Just curious. Time to deal with one thing at a time and I'm sure others will jump in here as well.
GEL, Thanks for the reply. I am thinking that my reply will be equaly as disjointed. In the begining and middle of our marriage, I have been as CALMLY, and non threatening, non judgemental in my communication with her as I felt able. I have good communication skills interpersonally. These "discussions of feelings" always disintergrated into major blow outs, and threats of divorce. So yes I have tried to communicate. Just given up now. She comes from a family where tough issues are more or less ignored. Head in the sand, avoid until critical type of behaviour. Earlier in our marriage I am sure I was viewed as needy. Within the last three years, I have more or less decided that I was just not going to depend on her anymore. It had become obvious that I would get no emotional support from her early on in the relationship. Previous to three years ago, I would try to get her to be more supportive (needy). Three years ago to present I just "suck it up" and deal on my own terms without her. Survival mode. I do engage the kids and persue my own interests. However, this just gets viewed as being selfish and self-centered. Damned if I do, Damned if I don't. Sex has pretty much always been about her. Her wants , her needs, her schedule. Early on I was the one to initiate but would always, and I do mean always, either get "compliance" but obvious disinterest in joining me in sex, or just out right rejection. Somewhere around the third year of marriage, I just stopped asking. So in that light, I suppose I got what I deserved as I stopped asking and just gave her control of that aspect of our marriage. Mea culpa. Mea culpa. Mea maxima culpa.
I have been to counciling by myself and feel I have some of the tools I need to live in a "dead marriage" I remained in the marriage with her all these years because I truly love her.(Not due to any co-dependace issues I assure you). But as the years go on, I find the continued rejection of me as a person, a man, a partner, to be harder and harder to tolerate.It has taken its toll on me physiologicly as I am unable to perform without chemical enhancement. I.E. little blue pill. She does not know any of this except that I was struggling and now have recovered. She has no clue how her actions impact me, my confidence,my self worth.
I don't want to make her out as a shrew. She is a wonderful woman.......Loving, caring, supportive, sexy......to everyone but me however.
I have serious issues with lonelyness. It is supremely painful to me. All that said, I do appreciate your response and look forward to more insight.
There is no need for you to tell me that she is a wonderful woman. Please don't think that I am assuming because of anything you say that she doesn't have good/redeeming qualities about her...obviously she must, you were attracted to her for a reason. She does obviously have issues though that could make existing in a marriage with her very difficult. It's amazing how we can be married to someone, have wonderful children...be surrounded by people who care for us and still be supremely lonely...because we don't receive that emotional connection from the one person we crave it the most from...our spouse. I'm all too familiar with that feeling....at least I was.
Ok I must ask you this and I'm going to apologize up front if this comes across harsh...but it's the only way I can ask it and I tend to shoot straight, ok?
Why don't you value yourself more? Why are you willing to stay in a "dead marriage"?
Now, I know you love her...I heard you when you said that, but "love" isn't always enough....as you know, to make you happy. Yes, you have kids...and I understand people stay in marriages for the kids, or in order not to be separated from them too....BUT what about your happiness?
Have you taken any drastic measures to wake her up? By that I mean...have you drawn a line in the sand about her behavior (not meeting your needs) and said "I cannot live like this, if things do not change (or if we do not seek marriage counseling) you won't have to worry about threatening me with a divorce...because I'll be the one filing."?
And lastly...sorry if I missed this but if you invited her to MC (I only read that you had been to counseling), what did she say?
GEL, We had gone to a "Christian" councilor way back when and that was a negitive experience for both of us. Long story there. I , lster on, sought a councilor, female, to go to for the both of us, but she was adament about not going. I was/am the one with the problem, not her. Now when the subject is brough up it is more along the lines of how much trouble it is to find a mutually acceptable councilor, or the expense, or whatever.
I do value myself very much. No I do not find the question harsh. I feel like I have made a commitment to my wile lo these many years ago and am wanting to stick to it. I also had a chat with my youngest. He is deathly afraid of divorce and is emotionaly not prepared for this to happen. He asked me to promise not to divorce. I said that I cant promise that but that I would not be the one who actualy went ahead and did it. Honestly, Divorce is growing more and more likely as the years roll on. I would not fight her for any of the assets, just a fair shake. (joint cust, child support, no maintanance, leave my retirement alone, I will leave yours alone, I would be willing to assume all debt except for the mortage etc.) I just cant bring myself to that point as I don't see that we have really exhausted all options. I still am unwilling to go this route due to having given my word that this will not come from me. Let's face it, My needs have never , really been a priority inthis marriage. Might sound like whining, but it is true. The kids have always come before all with her. In that vein, I feel like asking her how living in a broken marriage is , in any way, benefiting the kids. What are we teaching them by insisting on makeing them a priority above our marriage, our relationship? I have always felt the marriage comes first. Not to the expense of the children, but in an effort to lay a foundation. Right now, and always, the priorities have always been backwards. I am relitivly sure that the only reason that she does not go ahead and file is because of the kids and the financial aspects of a divorce. Really does not have anything to do with wanting to be with me or whatever. Drawing lines in the sand with her is pointless. The reaction is varied between ambivolance, and placating behaviour for a brief time followed by the return of general dissatisfacion, annoyance,dislike for me. It really may end up comming to the point that I can see no other choice but to seek out a mediator rather than a lawyer. Or a lawyer if need be, and draft a divorce agreement to present to her should the need arise. I have no idea if this is feasible, but worth looking into I guess. Sad part is, She could have whatever she wanted out of this marriage if I just felt like I was wanted. If I was made to feel like I was desireable,sexy, strong. Rather than unwanted, impotant, and unworthy. In my mind I know these are not true of me, but in my heart, I have no confidence or trust(emotionally) of her. Very painful. Look, thaks for the resposes. It helps to bounce this off of someone else. I really have no where else to turn it seems. I truly do not want to dump on family or friends and this is a safe place to unload. Counciling , solo, just does not really seem to make any lasting impression on me. I am very intune with what is going on with me. That said, I do have a close friend who is a Psychologist and I do turn to him from time to time for tune ups. Very wise guy. I have had many chats with him lately and will continue to do so just to keep my own self awareness in place. Easy to loose your self at times like these. Feel free to pick my brain more if you are of a mind to.
Let me ask you this....what is HER perception of your marriage do you think? Do you think she views it as broken, as you do? If she doesn't then asking the question "how living in a broken marriage is , in any way, benefiting the kids" is pointless.
Let me also just simply throw this out there for you to chew on. I know your needs have gone unmet for a very long time so this may not sit well, but there's a purpose to it. What needs of your wife do you think may be going unmet? I'm sure your gut reaction is...Huh? I bend over backwards to meet her needs and she does nothing to meet mine. Well, that's often the perception. I know I thought that when I first had a Psychiatrist as me that regarding my own husband. He gave the an assignment to go home and clean the house so it was spotless before he got home (now keep in mind, we both work full time jobs AND we have a toddler at home). My initial response was, "oh great! He's the one not doing anything I ask and now "I" get homework to go home and work my ass off...for what!"
Well the reason was this...yes, we are busy, busy people and it's not that our house was messy, but it did get cluttered (I mean he didn't bother to pick it up either LOL.)...but the clutter bothered him (mind you my clutter bothered him, not his LOL). Having dishes in the sink bothered him, laundry undone bothered him. Perhaps bothered isn't the right phrase...stresses him. So, I went home....and since I was peeved I scoured the house from top to bottom (all the while grumbling under my breath, which was ok because my H was working nights right then). Well low and behold....when he got home, he woke me up and commented on what a great job I had done on the home...and went on about it. He even talked about it the next day and was....get this, more affectionate towards me.
What it comes down to is that my making that effort made him feel cared for. I was actually speaking one of his love languages (Acts of Service) unintentionally by creating some order in the home for him....simply by straightening up some clutter.
Have you read the book "The Five Love Languages" by any chance? If you have and have mentioned it, sorry I missed that part. If you haven't it's a quick and easy read and surprisingly helpful. If you can try different things and figure out her love languge(s) then you might see some change in behavior towards you. I found that my H's behavior towards me changed...and I never told him what I was doing. It helped build intimacy outside of the bedroom...which obviously can help build it in the bedroom as well.
Has your Psychologist friend ever mentioned this to you?
Tired: you may want to take a look over at Fuji's thread. Your sitch's sound similar. I kind of tried to give him an insider's view of the W's mind/thinking.
Me: 38 H: 35 S4, S5, S10 Bomb 01/07 Wanted D - nothing would change his mind Numerous A's prior to D bomb; EA prior/during D bomb Piecing 04/07 Deployed for a year 05/07 Still Piecing 2010 M 11 yrs 05/10
OH yeah, Read the book, been there, done that, no lasting change. Well, except that I continue to try to speak her language. Just less and less as the distance grows. In other words, the more distant she becomes the more distant I do. I really just can't continue or increase my emotional exposure by speaking it more as she pulls away. The damage control reflex has kicked in now. I am more and more unwilling to be in any way vulnerable to her.
She knows the marriage is a mess too. There are no suprises there. She is the first one to declare it. It has been me that has viewed things more from the rose colored glasses. Her needs are expressed in the context of help around the house. I do help around the house. A lot. One thing that comes to mind though, is I have asked for a list of HONEY DO"S to help me help her. She says I should just "know" what needs done and then do it. I reply with, "If the end result is getting this need met, what does it matter if you have to write it down for me?"" for whatever reason I am not tracking with the exact way you want things to be. Why not WORK WITH ME to get this need met?" She wont list the things for me to do so I am left to assume that it is not really all about the chores. The chores just represent some other need,again unspoken, that is not getting met. Have no idea what that is.
My gut reaction is that I KNOW something about me leaves her cold. Don't know what, and she wont, or cant tell me what that is. I really think she cant connect with those kinds of issues and cant put voice to her needs. The easy solution is to have undefined anger and dissatisfaction with me and use me as the lightening rod. It has a double bonus as she can always fall back on the "voiced" reasons for her distance and negate the idea of there being anything else that she is not facing. Beleive me, I am WAY more critical of myself than she will ever be, so I have looked inward enough to identify anything that I may be doing or NOT doing to add to the drama.
I know this doesn't help, but, there are a lot of similarities between your situation and mine -- some sound almost identical. There were several things I wanted to ask you or mention as I read, but I'll try to keep it short for now.
Do you think your wife or you are depressed? Is there any joy in her life -- with a hobby, the kids, anything? Are things besides your marriage difficult for her? Does she have any close friends? Is she tired all the time?
I wonder if she's swallowed her feelings for so long that she is very repressed, flat, and joyless. I have no idea -- I'm just asking. I suspect that you are right -- that her complaints about housekeeping are not the real problem, not even close. But, I also wonder if it is more than you she is angry or frustrated with -- you're just a convenient target.
I've experienced a lot of pain from the rejection. I'm starting to think, partly from what LD spouses have written around here, that it's not that my wife "does not care" -- she just has no idea, or somehow manages to evade, the extent of how much it hurts. Some consolation. Not much. But some.
One thing that helped me a lot with the rejection and lack of sex was taking an SSRI type of antidepressant. It really really took the edge off -- and I don't mean just in a sexual-urge sort of way.
If you're not depressed, then taking an SSRI probably is not a good thing. But, if your life is like mine, I don't see how you wouldn't be by now
Getting my wife into counseling and taking antidepressants was so very helpful for her, us, and me. The difference is like night and day. She has a lot of resiliency and even seems to enjoy life at times, whereas before it was just chronic gloom, and the world (including me) was forever disappointing her.
What you wrote she said about house work -- almost identical to the word what happens here. We've had a few discussions about such things, and in one I was really struck by her lack of understanding/acknowledgement/appreciation of how I've struggled to keep her mentally afloat and keep her life bearable through the years, and all I did while the kids were still infants and toddlers -- well, that really really hurt. But again, she was pretty much oblivious, or had forgotten.
I think someone asked why you chose to stay, after she started getting cold-feet early in your marriage. In my case, I've never took her angst and negativity at face value, and always have been optimistic that she would eventually find a way through it or out from under it. [Of course, I know that is a foolish way to start and continue a relationship! But, I did love her, and still do now.] To a significant extent, she has gotten through it. And now, occasionaly, we have some physical connection, and sometimes an emotional connection or at least the distance shrinks, and now we are connected by our children.
Well, I'm rambling. Probably should shut up for now.
I hope you find what you need here in these forums. So far, there seems to be a lot of good help.
