lonely and tired of caring

[FijiOrBust]

Welcome to my first thread. Don't want to bore you with too many details, or underwhelm you with too much whining, but I suppose a few specifics would be helpful.

W45, Me 41, 2 lovely D (4 & 8).

Sex rarely (approximately once every three to four MONTHS, after I finally give myself courage to ask once a day for a few days in a row). It is never enthusiastically or lovingly given to me. Sometimes, she has appeared to enjoyed it herself in the last year or two -- but, if you ask her on the rare occasion we discuss sex or our relationship -- she'll be sure to clarify that it is a burden.

The lack of sex has gone on pretty much since our first daughter was born. She was interested at the early part of our relationship, and often reached a satisfying climax. We have tried to blame it on depression, meds to treat the depression, perhaps some nerve/circulation damage from childbirth, or anything else non-psychological. But, we've run out of such candidates, I'm afraid.

IMO, she has been depressed to varying degrees for as long as I've known her (14 years), and I have been myself for at least half that. We now both take anti-depressants, and they clearly help her and me. Even she will admit they help her; as long as she takes them she gets along fairly well. Our long-time explanation for her lack of interest/arousal/satisfaction in sex is the anti-depressants. But, I strongly suspect that is only part of the story.

I am a good father. I think I've carried my weight with the kids, and sometimes hers (especially when they were infants, and her depression was especially bad).

She works part time (~20 hrs/week), very late hours. [Feels like she is avoiding me.] Our house is a mess most of the time. She claims her biggest grievance is that I don't do enough around that house -- cleaning-wise. Maybe I should be doing more, but I do share morning duties and take care of the kids almost all evenings and more than half the weekend, and, I don't think she gives me credit for the household help I do provide. It would be fair to doubt my version of those facts, but, really, I think this is not the real issue. And, frankly, right now I'm feeling an awful lot of resentment (sorry, but it's true), it's hard to listen to any of her demands/complaints. To the extent I have listened and acted before, it hasn't helped.

Our most recent discussion gravitated towards how she thinks it was a mistake for us to have gotten married; she thinks we are not really compatible. I've heard that funk before, and I suspect she's trying to distance herself from any feelings she may have. {guess there's more than one way to reject me}

Previously, she's mentioned that it's hard to feel attracted to me when she resents me so much about the lack of help I give her. But, IMHO, she's not being fair about this.

My gut feeling is she's getting into one of those modes where she convinces herself that marriage is a burden (used to be marriage and motherhood, so I guess there has been progress).

I should mention we haven't slept in the same bed (except for some rare occasion) for most of the last six or seven years. In retrospect, it sure seems like this has been HER choice. (I solved my snoring problem ages ago by seeking medical treatment. She isn't pregnant anymore, we don't have a waterbed anymore, she didn't like the space-age bed we tried for awhile (uhm, she didn't bother to sleep on it), she can't really go out of her way to shop for a new bed, and so she chooses to sleep on an air-mattress -- it's best for her back -- and, well, those just aren't made for two. Now we don't have money to buy a new mattress [especially since she spent "her" money on something frivolous]

Ack. I see I can't go for long without turning this into a pity party for myself.

Oh, and we haven't gone out on a "date" except for ONCE since our first daughter was born, plus ONE office x-mas party. IMHO, she played hard to get there too, and I've stopped trying.

To sum it up: We have no relationship, except for being "civil", at times friendly, and, if I've begged enough, a little bit of pity-sex-not-enjoyed-by-her. We have two daughters. I would have filed for divorce ages ago, if it weren't for them. I'm starting to get to the point where I think staying together is not the best for our kids. If not a day of my life in the last eight years has been happy, it can't be good -- for my health, or for the example we've been setting.

It's not about the sex, at least not any more. It's about her attitude towards me. She can't be bothered -- she can't give me five minutes of her time in a loving way, say, once a month or once a week, supposedly because I didn't stay up after getting the kids in bed to do a load of laundry, or didn't do that, or am somehow (financially, physically, etc.) a disappointment to her.

I'm tired of not having a wife, a loving fun relationship. I don't see any hope of having good times with her, and it's hard to remember if we really ever had.

Just lonely, and tired of trying. Maybe it's time to move on.

[haphazard]

Hi Fiji,

Are you a newbie to this board or a newbie to divorce-busting in general?

Get a Life:
This means you go out and do what YOU feel like doing to have fun and enjoy life, by all means invite W along, but do things anyway whether she wants to (or wants you to) or not. This is important in creating a happier you and a happier you that is not dependent on her for your happiness. This person will be more attractive to her.

Go back to dating mode:
How did you used to behave when you were dating her? Cast your mind back and see if you can behave that way again. I'm sure you didn't walk up to her and just say, any chance of some sex? I'm sure you courted her, made her feel pretty/desirable/interesting etc. See if you can practice making your face light up when she walks into the room. She probably hasn't seen that in a while.

Sex does become a chore to women who don't feel flattered/cosseted etc. It becomes a chore because often the H can make it sound like it is part of the wifely duties like cooking the dinner or whatever. As soon as the H sees sex as being a "need" that the W should provide the W sees it in the same way. Once she sees it that way it inevitably turns into a chore.

There's lots of other things to do, but that's a start at least. Don't get too wound up by the fact that it is you doing this and not her. I'm sure there is plenty about herself that she could correct but she's not here and you are. Make a start and she will react. Keep us posted.

Fran

[FijiOrBust]

Thank you Fran. I really appreciate you giving me a thoughtful reply.

I've been lurking here long enough to read a handful of threads (some are quite long!) I bought the books (DB and SSM) long ago (maybe a year or two). Bought a second copy of SSM, so my wife could read it too at the same time (she seemed interested). Like so many things here, we've both neglected to follow through.

GAL sounds great, and I know I need to do that. And, that one seems easiest to do while still smothered by my own resentment.

Going back to dating mode -- that's a tough one. I am sure she hasn't seen me light up when she walks in the room. I know this is harmful to the R, but I'm finding it really hard to even look at her at all when she walks in the room (literally, sometimes). I've found myself tending to become withdrawn from her, emotionally, since it became clearer to me her lack of sexual desire is less about her body's interest in the act (or circumstances of being tired, etc.), and is more about the resentment she feels towards me. That really hurts, because it's not where all the LD and lack of intimacy started. I really was very attentitive to her (probably too much so) -- her emotional needs, wishes in life, growth, sensitivities. I tried SOOO hard to please her, to make life special for her (probably to an unhealthy extent). She may have reasons to resent me by now, but damn it I'm not the one that put us on this path. I know it "shouldn't" matter, and that I've got to find a way to stay focused on the prize -- a good happy future together. But, it is a fact that right now we are a stalemate. Her resentment vs. my resentment. Her disinterest in giving me the gift five minutes of loving attention vs. my unwillingness to feel manipulated and victimized by it anymore.

I've got to get myself unstuck...
which means I've got to motivate myself to do so...
which, right now, in all honesty, isn't looking so promising.

[cemar2]

FijiOrBust:

You need to read "Superior Man" Or "Wild at Heart". These are to instruct you on the art of being a man. There is little that you can do to change her or the relationship. What you need to do is focus on begin the man, the rock, and if you are LUCKY, she might come around. "Wild at Heart" is much more relgious then "Superior Man" but they are both good. They are good starting points.

[MJontheMend]

One important thing to remember is that being nice or supportive is not what makes a person sexually attractive. Of course, it is important to be nice and supportive in a relationship but it will never get you hot sex. Think about this in the context of the advice HAP gave you to 'get a life' or go back to 'dating mode'. My 2bx is a really anxiety-prone high maintenance type man so when we were together I was always doing things like making sure the house was clean and tidy and a delicious dinner was served so that he could relax so that maybe I could get laid. Now, he's living by himself in a barren apartment and eating frozen meals every night and he thinks I'm a crazy b*tch for dating so soon after we split but...after he saw me in the grocery store last week he felt compelled to call me and tell me how hot I am and try to get me to have sex with him.


So, when I think about an issue like housework which you mentioned, I would say the "sexiest" way you could deal with the issue would be to rationally figure out what was fair (For instance, if you work 40 hours and she works 20 maybe you should do i/3 of the housework) in your own mind and draw a strong line in the sand. It will do you not one bit of good to do more than that in your situation because your W will just see it as something you are doing to get laid and discount it as such. You are much better off conveying "I'm doing this much housework because I'm a fair relationship partner. If you want to pout and withhold sex that's your bad which I may or may not tolerate." than "I will do all the housework you demand if you will just, pretty please, have sex with me.".

[FijiOrBust]

Thanks Cemar. I think that might be part of the problem. I'll hit the bookstore at lunch.

[FijiOrBust]

I think my days of being nice and supportive to a fault are behind me -- at least right now, and with her. And, yes, that approach has failed miserably. Maybe that is the root of her disinterest in me, and giving me joy to experience occasionally.

Regrettably, I've been on the cold and distant side (not mean), but clearly I'm not focusing on her happiness, or even supporting it to any extent. I suppose it's a bit like pouting, but I've found it very hard to be upbeat about any part of our time together, after being, well, hurt by repeatedly being rejected in so many ways (not just the sex.)

Today is our anniversary. She knows it. I know it. Last year, I don't recall receiving even a card, though I think I got one for her. Just a few days ago she said sometimes she thinks we shouldn't have gotten married because we are so incompatible (except, of course, we have wonderful children -- that we are both delighted to have).

I'm not sure what to do re. our anniversary. I'm sure there is not a card at a store that would feel in anyway appropriate. Saying nothing would be foolish, don't you think? Saying "Happy Anniversary" -- well, that seems stupid at this point. Maybe giving her a copy of DB would be a nice gesture? Or, maybe something related to her specific career interests...

[RedHeadWife]

I'm pretty sure you looked at one of my threads and seemed to think that our sitch's were somewhat similar.

I can give you some insight from my POV. My H dropped the D bomb and I did a 360 (I'm not saying that's what you should do, just giving you insight from my sitch). We had for years gotten to the point where it was just living day to day. I never wanted to have sex and I didn't realize how damaging that is to an M -- I didn't realize how that feels like rejection to the other person. I have now been on both sides of that coin.

H had gotten to the point where he was having (another) EA and "loved me as a person and the mother of his children, but that was it." He just deployed for a year and we are WONDERFUL now. I didn't realize how much I was missing by not putting the effort into having an R w/ my husband as well as everything else (taking care of kids, working, etc.) Sometimes I feel as if I wasted so much time, but I don't dwell on that.

I realize that I had gotten to the point where I was not happy "just being the mom" which is what I felt like. I kind of felt like I needed/wanted to be taken care of too and that was H's job. What I've finally realized is that the W is the one who kind of has to do everything, but I am now not resentful for that at all. The W is the one who needs to take care of the kids and also have a meaningful R w/ her H and she needs to make the effort to make that happen or it will fall by the wayside.

I'm not sure how your W would feel about this or if she is at a point where she can accept that. Many here may disagree w/ me on this, but this is just how I feel. Yes, the H needs to put the effort into the M also but I guess my H felt he was doing that and I didn't really see that. It could also be personalities too. I think my H needs more nurturing and "taking care of" than some.

This may sound very old-fashioned and people who know me well would be astonished that I'm saying it, but I don't think things have changed so much over the years. The W & mom truly is the one who needs to hold the household together and that includes the M as well. Like I said, this is all just my opinion.

I guess I don't really know what to tell YOU to do as it was the other way around in my M. My H was ready to walk and I made sure that didn't happen. Your W needs to get to the point where she wants to save your M and put in the effort/work that's needed.

Because of everything that has happened, I see my H very differently than I had for YEARS. He is now very attractive to me, sexy and I want him all the time. I guess I had "kid goggles" on for too long (kinda like beer goggles, but kids instead Anyway, I wasn't looking at our M or R the same way anymore once we had children. The dynamics change so much after you have children. I guess what I've learned is that it doesn't have to as much as it sometimes does. I did a 360 and made sure that I brought back a MEANINGFUL R w/ my H and not just a "mom and dad" R. We aren't just our children's mom & dad. I'm not just a "mom" but that's how I felt or maybe thought I should be, therefore I wasn't happy either. I NEEDED to still feel like a woman and making sure my R w/ my husband was healthy reinstated that.

I guess I kind of rambled here. I've been thinking A LOT (especially w/ H leaving). I still have issues w/ trust b/c of the A's, but I know that will take time. I can honestly say though that w/ my work & effort, I totally turned my M around and it is so very fulfilling now for both of us. Like I said, I didn't realize how much was missing until we got it back.

[FijiOrBust]

Yes, I remember your situation and there are similarities. It's a beautiful thing you have managed to do for yourself, your husband, and family. It sounds like it has and will make a tremendous difference in the quality of your lives together.

I'm afraid my wife is stuck right now NOT wanting to do everything -- sort of has a chip on her shoulder about some of those things, thinking I or society "expect" her to do them. Yet, I like to think I'm pretty non-traditional about the roles we should play...in thought, and significantly in action. However, the fact is we are both starved for time and energy, and, when it comes to house work, I'm willing to let things slide much more easily than her -- and then she begins to think "he must expect ME to do everything around here....", when it is not that at all.

But, ML is different. I do "expect" her to be there in a loving giving way more than 4 times/year. I need her to. It hurts incredibly that she doesn't want to. In terms of time and energy, it seems small in comparison to the things she wants me to do around the house (probably not a good comparison). If I spend too much time and effort trying to prove to her that her assumptions about my expectations of her are wrong, or trying to make life easier and less cluttered around here -- well, it feels like I'm just doing it to get sex. If I walk on eggshells, hoping to get sex, and then it doesn't happen (which almost always it turns out that way), then the situation just gets worse. At this point, I try very hard to resist even hinting or asking for it, until three months or so have gone by.

Right now, I don't see her finding motivation to be more loving and more of a partner and less resentful -- without there being some dramatic wake-up call (like a D-bomb). But, I'm not likely to do that sort of thing unless I really truly mean it.

Is there anything I could do short of a D-bomb or an affair to make her see the urgency of our need to connect physically and emotionally? (Well, part of the problem is I think any sort of physical connection pushes her emotionally FARTHER from me.) Sometimes I wonder if our antidepressants dull our sensitivity to our own deteriorating situation.

[RedHeadWife]

I was very much there too -- resenting what I thought I should be or what I thought was expected of me. Luckily, I have found that you CAN be happy being a mom AND still be a woman/wife -- I have learned you cannot JUST be a mom and still have a good M.

As far as the housework, my sitch was a bit different in that H started doing a lot more than I did and it kind of backfired. He didn't think I was appreciating it enough and I figured that I was taking care of the kids and he was doing more to help -- lack of communication there. After the bomb, I ended up doing EVERYTHING and found that if I actually took the time to do it, I really did have the time and energy to do it.

I NEVER realized how my not wanting to ML was perceived as "rejection" to my H. I didn't realize how devestating this was to our M. Once I started taking an active role and making the effort to make sure it happened all the time, not only did I enjoy it, but before he "came around" to maybe wanting things to work out, I was also "rejected" and realized what it felt like.

Please DO NOT have an affair -- emotional or physical. That is not going to help and may be the end of your M and any hope of making things better.

In my sitch, I needed the wake up call or things probably would not have changed. Even when he sent me an email saying "I don't know how much longer I can live like this" I still didn't get that D was even an option. I would think that you need to seriously sit her down and talk to her and make sure she knows how serious the sitch is. I know when H tried doing this w/ me though I would get pretty angry and/or defensive.

H and I are/were both on AD's also. I know that these can lower your sex drive, but if I had to guess, I would say that's not a big part of your ML issues. It's stemming from her resentment, etc., it's more emotional than a physical thing, but that's just my guess.