I have never posted on a site like this before and actually never thought I would have to, but here I am. Reading everyone's posts has really helped me alot the past few days. It helps knowing that I am not alone in this. I am still at the beginning stages of my "mess" and not really knowing what to expect or do. I have done the begging, the crying, the screaming, the threatening, and now am just left alone and empty! Here is a little history of the long story!
We have been married almost 12 years, have 2 beautiful sons 9 and 4, and have had a pretty normal marriage or so I thought, however we have always had a communication issue. He doesn't like to talk, I do!
His business started really struggling this past year and the stress was a little overwhelming. We started having some BIG arguments in November and more so in December, when I finally went to stay with my mom saying I couldn't deal with it anymore. He called and begged me to come home, cried and said he was sorry, that we could go to counseling and he would learn to communicate better. I came back home the following day and we talked about how we would work things out. Well the counseling kept being pushed back because of money and eventually the whole thing was dropped. The arguments died down through January but then picked back up in February.
I had suspected in the recent past that he had been sports betting online but he denied it and said it was all just playing around and that no real money was being used. I only half believed him at the time but I let it go. So on February 25th I caught him and again he said it was play money. I made the statement that I would put a keylogger on our computer and that he better be honest with me because I would find out. Again he denied it. So I did just what I said and put the keylogger on the computer. Boy was I shocked with what I found out!
Meanwhile this argument escalated to the point of him packing his things, putting everything into his car and saying he was leaving, that it was over and that marrying me was the biggest mistake of his life. In the end, he stayed and again said we would work it out, that the kids needed both parents and that we could get through this! It was just the stress and everything and that he loved me!
Then comes February 27th (D DAY) I came home and went to check my email I saw in the history that the gambling page has been opened so I quickly check the keylogger. I don't even see the gambling page but rather find an email from him answering a personal ad. to be with a couple. After a long night of questioning, fighting, etc. I found out this has been going on for some time. he has been looking for No Strings Attached affairs with married or single women/couples and meeting them at lunch. Details of what he confessed to:
1 threesome 2 married women w/o husbands (one got attached even though he supposedly only saw her 2 times) 1 voyeur experience - he watched 1 married woman oral only Multiple picture trading (one of which is his employee who still works there, I think he actually cared, maybe even still cares for her- I asked if he was in love with her and he said he didn't know then later took it back and said he was only trying to hurt me)
Not sure if this is the whole of it but this is what the told me about. Actually what I was able to get out of the emails that I was able to access before he deleted them all (2 years worth) So I was shocked, horrified, angry, sad! I was feeling the whole gamut! Still am actually. This is like a roller coaster that I can't get off of!
Now on my side of the whole thing, it just so happens coincidentally that I for the first time in our 12 years decided to cheat on him the VERY night that I found out, right before i got home with a co-worker. Mine was done out of the need for feeling wanted. I had just been told 2 days prior that I was the biggest mistake ever and I felt like it. A good looking male co-worker had shown some past interest and I decided to take him up on it. I was feeling unwanted, unloved and unattractive. I pretty much thought it was over and that it was just a matter of days before he was gone anyway. I confessed to what I had done and he wasn't even really that angry. But it did help him feel like he wasn't the only bad person in the entire thing.
Now where we are at is we immediately went to counseling to see if we could save our marriage. The c said yes but it would take work. He doesn't know what he wants, if he even wants to be married. I have said all along we could work this out. The affairs were awful but we could work on forgiveness. He says that he has felt like a caged animal. He got married too young (him 20, me 23) that we had kids too young (him 23, me 26) We are now H31 and Me 34. He says that I never trusted him, which I had some troubles with due to his friends etc. (more on that later, that he could never go out and just hang out with the guys and that he hasn't been happy for some time. He resents me for leaving a career in special forces early on in our marriage (we had a baby and it meant he traveled every other week for 2 weeks and while he was home he trained and was only home a couple of nights a week, not even to mention that his life was in danger when he finally would deploy for 6 months at a time.
So he stayed for a month and half, we went to counseling then we stopped. It seemed we only went over the old and never got anywhere. I left every meeting feeling worse than before. I wanted a plan but he wasn't willing to make one. He didn't know what he wanted. He didn't want to have to "check in' with me. He didn't want to open up his life and be under the microscope. He didn't know if he could or even wanted to put in the effort it would take and he thought I would never get over it because I had held on to so many other things in the past. He didn't really make any attempts at trying or anything. The first weekend he insisted on going out with "the boys" to a party and came home after 3 am. So here I was thinking that we needed to work on things, spend time together and all he could think of was "spreading his wings"
Also, when I found out about everything, he stopped paying the bills and got us behind on everything. Creditors are calling etc. which only has made matters worse. Now he says he is a failure, he has failed at everything and that there is no way he can face my parents or anyone because he is too embarassed by what he has done. He didn't even go to work a few days in a row because he was so depressed by his having no money etc. So instead of working harder, he stopped working.
He still doesn't know what he wants. He says he loves me, he just doesn't know if he wants to be married to me. He loves me but isn't in love with me, and now thinks that maybe he never was. He might have just been in lust with me.
Finally a week and half ago I went a little crazy. I told him that I had hit rock bottom. That I could no longer be down in the bottom of this hole with him and that I had to crawl out. That I couldn't force him to love me, that I couldn't make him want me and that I needed to get help. That we were losing everything, not just our marriage but our house, our cars, our boat etc. We needed a plan and that he had done nothing. I finally had to call my parents and ask for their help which he hated, so he moved out. He is staying in his office on a blow up mattress. He has come home the past two weekends and things have been fine. Strained but ok for the children. This past weekend I had started reading the posts here and tried very hard not to talk about the relationship. I feel like now that all we have left is this horrible thing between us and nothing else to talk about. Everything we talk about always seems to come back to "us" As he has been gone, he just gets meaner and only looks at me with resentment, like I am the reason for his failures.
Where to go from here? I love him! I don't want to lose him! I can get over the cheating (I guess for me it is better than an emotional affair, I don't know if I could bear that) I bought Divorce Remedy today and will start reading it tonight. I am trying to do what so many have posted on here, not talking about the marriage but this hole in my heart and empty feeling in my stomach makes me want to. I want to know what he wants. I can't stand the indecision. I am starting to understand it and trying to give him his space but at the same time I feel like the space is driving the wedge even deeper between us! He told me once he was 60/40 about staying married but I don't think that he is there anymore. It feels more like 20/80. Or less even. He did say that he thinks still about sleeping with other women. Do I continue to try or do I just let him go? How can I trust him knowing he still wants other women? Will I ever be confident that I am enough for him? He has said so many hurtful things to me personally, about my body etc. and compared me to these 23 year olds who have not had any children and it has crushed my confidence. I have NEVER had a problem with men, I work out 4-5 times a week and take good care of my body, but two kids does take its toll.
I just can't believe this is happening to me and that he isn't here and trying to fix this. I want him to cry, I want him to beg for my forgiveness. I want him to want ME! I want him to open his life up on a platter and say trust me, here it all is. I wouldn't even want to look but the fact that it there if I wanted to would be enough. I want him to talk to me, tell me why. Not just because I didn't trust him for so long that he was finally doing it and saying hah now I finally am. What kind of person does that. He is acting like a 15 year old rebellious kid.
Tonight is a more positive night for me. I am working on me and making me right tonight. I haven't seen him today and sometimes that is better. When he is here, I am dying inside wanting him to just touch me, hold my hand, hug me, smile at me, anything! I just want to know he loves me. I have spent 12 years with him being the center of my life and what I am learning is that I need to be the center of my life and he is a part of it. That I need to make myself happy and that he can't be responsible for that.
Today I am ok, bought my book and am planning on doing some reading. Every other day is something new though. Hopefully I am past the begging stage. Last week I cried and begged, even told him that I would be willing to have an open marriage if he didn't leave me. Sobbed until I thought I was going to die inside. He left me crying in our entry, just drove off with me begging him to come back. After I calmed down, I felt so stupid. I new all I did was drive him further away. I knew this even while I was doing it but I couldn't stop. I just couldn't bear him walking out that door, leaving me with our 2 children. I have gotten better though. This last Sunday when he left I just said goodbye and let him go. No begging, no crying and he told me this was hard for him. So I continue to hope.....
So sorry you are here, dear. This is a wonderful place full of good advice, but let me give you one caveat in your sitch.
I don't think your H is the typical WAS (as in normally good guy who just succumbs to a flirtation during a time of stress or depression). It sounds like your H is a different, rarer breed - a sex addict.
Forget for the moment all the ways he tries to twist this around on you. We all have our faults and things we need to work on, but there is NOTHING you did or didn't do that caused him to engage in this kind of aberrant behavior. This isn't a result of him marrying young, or you being preoccupied with the kids, or anything else. This has to do with HIS issues, his drives, his peculiar thinking. It may be linked with his other addictive, behavior, gambling.
It may be possible for him to get better, but only with intensive therapy and treatment. As long as you cling to him and try to win him back, you're only enabling him and allowing him to cling to the fiction that he's left because of things you did.
I think it's time to be lovingly open and firm with him. He has problems - sex addiction, gambling, depression - and he needs help. Until and unless he gets that help, you need to be separated from him. Financially, for your protection, and physically, for your protection. This man has a dangerous disease that could kill you, because his sex addiction could easily lead to him infecting you with AIDS. Your kids need you to be healthy and whole - and they need him to be healthy too. Ironically, I suspect the best chance he has of getting help is if he hits rock-bottom first by losing you.
Thank you for your response. I agree that he has some problems. I am not sure that I see them as full on addictions as of yet. He gambles on a very small scale and has not lost a lot of money but he continues to gamble when times are tough. He owns his own company which is suffering due to market conditions mostly and more recently his lack of enthusiasm because of our problems which has resulted in us getting very behind in bills etc. The sexual part of it, although different from a normal affair is more exploratory vs addictive. Initially I went down this same path and questioned addiction etc. but after much reading etc. he did not exhibit the same patterns etc. He is not compulsive nor is it constant.
He is an adrenaline addict. He loves anything that gives him that rush. He said once that it wasn't the sex that he even enjoyed but rather the 5 minutes before he got there. Once he got there he could care less. Who knows maybe it is a sex addiction in a different form as I have a friend that is a former drug addict and he said that it wasn't doing the drugs that was the best part it was the "scoring the drugs" Maybe I am just making excuses for him because I don't want him to be a sex addict. I don't know anymore!
Our therapist said it was a form of sexual addiction because of the type of behavior not necessarily the frequency or compulsivity. But he says he can stop the behavior and that he has stopped. He said it is more that he was tired of the same thing, I won't actually use the word he used. but it was much more hurtful and dealt with one specific body part.
Our sex life had gotten very monotonous. Our 4 year old had been sleeping in our bed for years and we couldn't get him out. Which now I attribute to laziness and complacency on our part. Since this happened I put my foot down and he hasn't slept in our bed once. Initially we had an extremely healthy sex life, but our sex life had diminished to whenever we could when the children weren't around and usually they would end up banging on our door during or we would have to go into the closet while the kids were asleep. So the sex had gotten less and less frequent and less and less adventurous. It was the same position each time, no foreplay and very quick. I sometimes blame myself for this but at the same time he was as guilty as me for not getting our son out of our bed. We stopped taking time for each other. We would go through periods of great frequency and then other times it would be weeks without it.
In any case, I do know that he has to hit rock bottom for him to want to get better and that my wanting him and clinging to him is enabling him and almost allowing this to continue (supposedly it has stopped but he refuses to prove it) but it is so hard to just let him go. He is my life! I can't stand it! I can't even begin to think about life without him. Christmas without him, Open House, vacations we had talked about, our children's first dates, buying their first car, even just dinner in the evening and experiencing all of the funny little things that the children say. I can't imagine him not being here for it all.
I sit in bed every night wondering if he is still out there, who he might be with, if he is looking on Craig's List, if he is over at the one girls house that he was almost emotionally involved with. It is so much to handle. I don't want to let go! I don't want to lose him!
His whole family is very strange in that they can shut off there emotions. "Out of sight, out of mind" If you aren't around and making contact they just shut you out of their lives, if you make them angry they just write you off. I can't do that. I can't shut the door on those people I love. I am afraid that if I don't call or don't see him that it will just be easy for him to walk away. He can just turn off his emotions and leave.
He is very close to one of our son's, our youngest. He doesn't share the same bond with our older one. So I know that it will be hard for him to walk away from him but I don't want him to only be here because of our one son. he has to be here for all of us. Want all of us! He said to me the other night that he enjoyed sleeping in his office because he didn't have the nagging wife, the whining kids , the house that he couldn't afford right now that he didn't have to deal with that. I asked him if he thought that all went away with a D. He said it quieted the noise. I actually laughed and told him that I thought he had a warped sense of reality because at least when he was home he had the nagging wife to help with the whining kids and pay for the house he couldn't afford and the D would actually be making his life that much harder for him. Because now he picks up child support and alimony plus he has the kids by himself with no breaks. At least together we can work as a team. But he doesn't know what he wants at all. He doesn't know if marriage is for him. He likes to be alone. I don't even know if there is a way to save this. If any amount of reading and doing what I am supposed to is going to bring him back to me. I don't know that he will ever be able to face everyone that knows what he has done. It is easier for him to walk away and start over somewhere else, with someone else.
Our therapist said it was a form of sexual addiction because of the type of behavior not necessarily the frequency or compulsivity
But you still don't want to believe it????
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Maybe I am just making excuses for him because I don't want him to be a sex addict.
Bingo.
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supposedly it has stopped but he refuses to prove it
Because he hasn't stopped, obviously.
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he continues to gamble when times are tough
Because he's addicted. And how do you KNOW he's only lost a little money??? Gambling addicts usually hide their losses, and lie about how much they bet.
Read the section in Divorce Remedy on the Last Resort. You need to set some really firm boundaries on what you will allow in your life (and the lives of your children). Your H needs to feel the reality of the consequences of his actions. And you NEED to find out exactly how bad the money situation is - are there credit cards you don't know about? Run a credit report on both of you. Look at all the bills. I think your H is out of control and odds are he's going to run up some big bills, so you should consider legal separation to protect yourself from getting sucked down into worse debt with him.
I know reading all this makes it sound as if I think he's hopeless. Actually, I don't - I learned a long time ago here that some of the least likely WASs can make spectacular turnarounds. But I DON'T think it will happen with your H unless you start standing up for yourself.
This guy carelessly risked exposing you to AIDS and any number of other STDs by having casual sex with complete strangers because he was bored with being a family man!!!!! He didn't make any effort to spice up the sex at home. He's gambling while you're struggling to pay the bills.
Get some legal advice about your options to protect yourself financially.
I have made an appointment to get some legal advice unfortunately it is not until May 17th. I pulled a credit report immediately upon finding out and have since taken over all of the bills. In order to get help from my parents, we had him sign the house over to me. They weren't going to provide a safety net for him. So he no longer is on title to the home. He is on the loans however. We are going to sell the home anyway to get out from under all of the financial burdens that his company has put us in. He doesn't want anything to do with figuring anything out. The minute I bring anything up he just gets angry with me. So far it appears that I have caught this before it got way out hand.
I have been tested for all STD's and fortunately I have none. He supposedly wore a condom on all of his occasions, 5 total (that I know of)
I will read the section you mentioned today. Thanks for your advice. I know I am probably turning a blind eye just so that I can get him back but I am just so confused. This is NOT the man that I married! I feel like it is just temporary insanity on his part or something. I just keep looking for a reason!
I have been tested for all STD's and fortunately I have none. He supposedly wore a condom on all of his occasions, 5 total (that I know of)
You need to get retested for AIDS in 6 months just to be sure. And I wouldn't sleep with him again until you see his test results too (don't just take his word for it). The odds that he faithfully used condoms every time are probably slim; people who engage in such risky behaviors usually aren't thinking about safety at the same time, or they wouldn't be there in the first place.
That's great that he signed the house over to you. Think carefully before you sell it; if you sell it now, will any equity from it become a shared marital asset? Might be better to sell it after a separation agreement is in place, so that all the money will be sure to go to you. Get legal advice.
Could it be temporary insanity? Maybe. Is this really out of character for him, or were here signs all along that he wasn't the most honest family guy? Did he always flirt with other women? Were there previous affairs? Is there a family history of clinical depression or bipolar disorder?
But I think temporary or not, your actions need to be the same. You need to be very clear on what it would take for him to win you back, and not settle for anything less. DO NOT take him back unless he is getting treatment for his problems, totally owning that HE screwed this up, dealing with his gambling issue, showing true remorse, and giving you complete and utter transparency (phone records access, etc.). This is for HIS own good - if you take him back without requiring those things he'll never get the help he so obviously needs.
The reason your H doesn't want to be put under a microscope is that he wants to be able to continue his secret, private life that is ultimatly incompatible with a healthy M.
I agree with Ellie on all counts.
I would also add that the chances you know "everything" are close to nil. It is far, far, far more likely that this is just the tip of the iceberg.
This sitch is not good for anyone. Get out of it. Protect you and your kids legally. Consider reconcilliation only under the conditions Ellie suggests. Seeing a shrink once doesn't count as treatment, either. He needs to be successfully working some program for sex and gambling addicts for several months before you should even think about the possibility of trying out reconcilliation.
As for STDs, condoms during intercourse do not protect against all STDs. They provide little protection against herpes, for instance. Moreover, AIDS can be transmitted orally, and condoms are seldom used in such cases.
You have NO IDEA what H has been doing or where his body parts have been. YOU CANNOT TRUST HIM ON THESE MATTERS. HE IS STILL LYING TO YOU.
FWIW, just so you know where we're coming from, oldtimer and I have both been on these boards for years and seen just about everything. OT didn't save her marriage but did save herself and has a wonderful new hubby and baby. I reconciled my marriage and we are doing well. Both of us are pro-marriage, but I think both of us see that your sitch requires serious measures. Don't settle for less than what he should be doing.
He's young, so I'm guessing he's probably not on any chronic medications? I only ask because there have been cases of Parkinson's medications kicking off compulsive gambling in unlikely people.
And speaking of drugs - do you think he's abusing drugs or alcohol? Just asking because the sexual behavior often also involves drug-taking.
Also, my XH had a phone sex/internet porn thing going that I discovered at about your age. We did the M thing for another 8 years or so, with me in denial and him lying, and nothing getting addressed. It doesn't work.
I agree with what you are both saying. I know that I have to be firm and only take him back under the conditions that you mentioned but I guess where I am troubled is that I can't even get him on board with the M right now let alone any treatment. I am trying very hard to pull back from him, get my own life, become more involved with friends. I am just so lonely. I teach kickboxing classes a few nights a week and I have just started attending church every Sunday with some friends of mine. I take the kids and they love it. So I am working on some positives for me, but with every two steps forward it seems I take one back. I just miss him. He was such a HUGE part of my life. I am not used to doing things without him. It is like this huge vacant spot in my life right now.
As far as the drugs issue goes, I asked right away. He said no and I really don't think so. He has never really done drugs except a little marijuana once or twice in college and he never really even liked it. Who knows though, since this whole separation he has been spending more time on the weekends with some of his younger, single friends that he works with and they do a couple of recreational drugs. He doesn't appear to be on them. But these days, I am just not so sure of things involving him. 2 months ago, when a friend asked me if I thought his behavior could be because he might be having an affair I swore up and down that there was no way and that it was just stress from work. I was wrong there so I may be wrong in regard to the drugs.
I guess for now, I just protect myself and the kids from any further damage he can do. We protected the house (too long to go into detail over) so there is no equity left for him to get once the house is sold. As far as that goes, he already took out a ton of equity to open his business. So if there were any left it goes to the me and the kids.
This is way out of character for him. He was always an honest, sincere, trustworthy guy. He never was the real flirty guy at parties, no previous affairs (that I know of) nothing of the sort to ever make me think anything like this would ever happen. He has always been a loner of sorts. He is very uncommunicative. He has trouble communicating his feelings and does not like confrontation. If there was ever a problem, it was easier for him to just leave for an hour or two and hope that it was over or if it was late, he would just go to sleep and act like nothing happened in the morning. As a result we never seemed to settle any disagreements. His dad died when he was about 13 and getting ready to go into high school. His mom never put him into any counseling, instead she sent him to go live with his uncle across the country while she and his sister packed the house. They were planning on moving to the same state in 6 months. he never had the chance to grieve. So at 12 he learned to shove his emotions down to the deepest darkest corners and not deal with them. He has been doing that ever since. I have said since we got married that he had some unresolved issue there but he refused to go to counseling.
Legal separation is my next step to protect myself and the kids. I have such a hard time even thinking that! It is like a huge frog just crawled in my throat. I keep hoping this is all a bad dream and that I am going to wake up and go back to real life. If only it were that easy!
The strangest thing about this is that I have always said, as I have seen a few of my friends go through affairs, that I would kick his you know what out the door if I ever caught him cheating! And here I am, hoping that he pulls himself together and deals with reality and that we can work this out. I never thought that would be me!
