I don't believe Chrome had an affair with LFL. If you want to convince yourself of that and try to make a mountain out of a molehill, then have at it. I think Karen's point is well taken than even though Chrome's W remain frigid and distant, and he was naturally longing for someone, he did in fact hold back from where he went with his first EA. Based on what Chrome has said of that first EA, its on the borderline of what I would consider a real affair. Where do you draw the line on what is termed an affair?
I know some men who will not go to lunch with anyone of the opposite sex unless in the company of others. Not out of fear of themselves but fear of being falsely accused. Where do you draw the line in letting others dictate how to classify your actions? Only you know in your heart where that line is and nothing anyone else says matters. What is an affair to one person may not be an affair to another. Was Richard Gere being sexually blatant kissing that Indian actress on stage?
Where do you draw the line in letting others dictate how to classify your actions? Only you know in your heart where that line is and nothing anyone else says matters.
Exactly. That is why your statement below is too dismissive:
If you want to convince yourself of that and try to make a mountain out of a molehill, then have at it.
I believe that all of our comments were in good faith, meant to help Chrome understand where his wife MAY be coming from with the comments she made. The fact is, none of us know where she's coming from. None of us know where any of the 'other' partners on this board are coming from. We can only guess and try to make suggestions on how to view things from different angles.
Bottom line is that only Mrs.Chrome can decide whether Chrome has been unfaithful, dishonest, untrustworthy or all of the above. Just like you said-only you know in your heart and nothing anyone else says matters. So, what GEL thinks, what I think and what you think about Chrome's behavior doesn't matter. But my guess is that Mrs Chrome has some beefs with it and that's the angle I was trying to come from with the comments I made and GEL's comments were similar.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
What I was getting from the conversation is debate over whether Chrome should disclose his "EA" with LFL to his W. One question is whether it even was an affair, the second question is whether to disclose it IF it was. With MrsChrome's victim thinking, I'm pretty sure Chrome can make that molehill into a mountain if he tries. So from that point of view, I liked Karen's suggestion to work on recovery and not rehash.
No wonder why Chrome does not want to reply. Christ in heaven. I give LFL mounds of credit for showing up like she has.
I'm sorry. I personally don't believe that what LFL and Chrome had going was anything NEAR an EA... that skirted the edges and said... nope, can't go there. Jesus.
EVERYONE is vulnerable to attraction. EVERYONE. It feels good. And if anyone has the balls to admit it, we've all flirted with it... at some point or another. And you may even take right up to the line. Cross it a few timses. But it does not MEAN you are committted to crossing the line.
This is where integrity comes into play, and how we LEARN it. I'm glad for anyone that has the internal compass to right their ship immediately. Some have to play with fire a bit.
And like I have said before... infidelity, on this board, sometimes, can be treated like a witch hunt. Only because of personal experience, and the horrid things we have all experienced. But c'mon people. We have ALL played with fire. And let's give us that have, a bit of a break. We are humans, learning. Some of us will take it way beyond what it should be. Some go the opposite direction, like LDs, and completely shut off any sexual experience. It is no worse than the HD who takes it to the hilt. It is but one version of two ends of a specutrum.
One goes the way of... abstinence. One goes to the verge of sexual experience.
And on the other end... you have two people who played with fire. Should we always hold their feet to the flames, or should we offer empathy and support through their struggles, and help them find their personal strength?
The person who ventures down the road of no return... cannot forever live in the abyss of sin. You pay for a crime... but to rehash it over, and over again... if you continue to pay... there is NO WAY OUT of that tunnel. The guilt of the experience will never set you free... especially if it is rehashed to infinitium.
We have two people here who have come clean. Give them a flippin' break people. Knock it off. Forgive. They are both, here, learning, as we all are. It is very difficult. I don't care what one person considers an affair, or what one person doesn't.
We are all here to learn. To accept. To forgive and to be forgiven.
If we cannot forgive ourselves and forgive others... without the perosnal experinece of an S.O.... why the he!! are we here?
Our collective job is to move beyond what we are... and to support each other in our collective process... to help one another, as best we can... in our own ways... regardless of HOW we choose to get there.
You are so right. For instance, I personally have MB'd to themes generated by the posts of at least 3 men on this BB. Therefore, at least 3 men on this BB are guilty of participating in cyber-chat-sex or at least co-operative erotica writing. Does the fact that I did it without their consent make them any less guilty. I think not. So cast not the first stone thee who live in glass houses etc.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
You had started down a path with your breakthrough conversation with your wife. Where has it gone?
I think there is agreement that there is no need to address the issue with LFL with your wife. The question is where is the first EA in YOUR mind? Are you over it?
I have a feeling that seeing the hurt the EA caused your wife is painful for you. It may go even deeper because it may stir up feelings about how your father treated your mother. Chrome, whether you had an EA or PA does not make you a bad person. You made a mistake and EVERYONE makes mistakes. The great thing is that you have owned up to it. Not everyone owns up to their mistakes so you are ahead of the game. Also from what your wife said to you I think she understands the mistake. HER worry is how you view her. DO you love HER? Do you want HER? Or as she said, do you want her to be someone she is not? It is your responsibility to tell her that you love her and that she is the woman you want to be with. It is also your responsibility to tell her that you want to have a better marriage. Of course she has some responsbilities also. You cannot force her to own up to them however you can take on your own issues and you can eventually get her into couples counseling which can lead to her own personal counseling.
How are you doing with your personal counseling? Are you reading any books? I just finished Care of the Soul (again) which I highly recommend. I am getting ready to reread Middle Passages and so is one of my best friends. These books aren't the complete answer but they do have some significant ideas and may help you realize that many of your issues are normal. You are a successful man and you need to start realizing that and living like that.
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
Cobra, I see. I have no opinion on what Chrome should disclose to his wife or not disclose except that he needs to be true to his heart and until he is, dishonesty is not a good foundation for a M. Our discussion about EAs is, in my opinion, completely separate from what Chrome should or should not disclose to Mrs Chrome.
Corri, As for your post in defense of Chrome and LFL...I'm just not seeing the judgmental comments that you refer to that make you so inclined to defend. People are debating over whether or not it was an affair, but I don't see that as being 'judgmental'. It's a commonly discussed idea on this board that we all have different limits and different boundaries within the context of M-what one finds unacceptable another will easily dismiss. Discussing those differences shouldn't be taken so very personally unless people have something they feel guilty about. In which case they should address why they feel guilty and not just demand that everyone stop speaking about it.
I'm sorry. I personally don't believe that what LFL and Chrome had going was anything NEAR an EA... that skirted the edges and said... nope, can't go there. Jesus.
Corri, your tone is entirely condescending. You berate everyone who's expressed an opinion by accusing us of 'badgering to death' and then you go on to express your opinion again. I just don't see the need to get so defensive on their behalf, as I don't see where the boards are being offensive like you claim. Let's get something straight. I thought Chrome and LFL termed their own situation an EA and expressed wrongdoing, I honestly didn't think there was anything to debate about. If that wasn't the case, then I wouldn't want any part of 'judging' their actions. Only their hearts can tell them whether or not their behavior was within the bounds of their vows and only their hearts can tell them whether or not they should disclose to their partners. There isn't anything judgmental there I don't think-I for one was operating under the idea that they had already expressed wrongdoing and that idea was the starting point for all of my comments. For crying out loud, we don't even know what their behavior WAS, so I don't see how we can term it an EA, I honestly thought they did that themselves. If that's not the case, then no one here can possibly have an opinion on something they know nothing about.
Should we always hold their feet to the flames, or should we offer empathy and support through their struggles, and help them find their personal strength?
From my standpoint, holding their feet to the fire was not the point of any of this!! Chrome and LFL were not the point of any of this! It was Chrome's WIFE that was the point, she made the comments and all of this was an attempt to see where she may have been coming from with her comments.
I personally think you're missing the point behind all the discussion and are focusing on things that you see as judgmental.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
It's a commonly discussed idea on this board that we all have different limits and different boundaries within the context of M-what one finds unacceptable another will easily dismiss. Discussing those differences shouldn't be taken so very personally unless people have something they feel guilty about. In which case they should address why they feel guilty and not just demand that everyone stop speaking about it.
Just for the record, I don't care if people comment on it or not. Everyone has the right to their opinion and can voice it. The danger in all of this for me, is that I don't really have a lot of guilt feelings regarding the EA behavior. I would have felt very guilty in the past but once the bomb dropped with him leaving so suddenly, it's like a door was opened that I can no longer shut. I'm sure Nop would refer to that as entitlement. And yes! I feel entitled to have a happy, exciting, passionnate M! Why should I live the rest of my life in a half-fulfilling M? It's easy for some people to say, "then just get out of it and go one with your life". I have problems justifying that when I have young children involved and there is no abuse in my M. Again, going back to my desire to have my cake and eat it too. I want my M and family and I also want a passionnate R. I am quite certain the R with my H will never meet my expectations. So my only choice is to change the expectations or get out. Both of those decisions are almost impossible for me to comprehend right now.
MoJo said I personally have MB'd to themes generated by the posts of at least 3 men on this BB. A female admitting to some supposedly/predominantly male behaviors. Something I didn't come across in my earlier days.
What do you want people to know or what do you want to promote? Maybe nothing? That is OK too.
Does the fact that I did it without their consent make them any less guilty. I would like to be excuse from this situation MoJo. Not that I ever thought I might be included. Just stating my preference for now.
I am just trying to figure things out, Judgments? None given and none expected.
Back to the general theme. When does caring about someone become over involvement?
A female admitting to some supposedly/predominantly male behaviors. Something I didn't come across in my earlier days.