New Thread for 2940!!!!!

[whatisis]

Tam, Tam, Tam...NOONE can complete you! God's been trying to complete people forever and look how successful he's been Completing each other is a romantic fantasy that has been put in our heads, it makes what we as DBers are trying to do that much more difficult. How can we get along without the ONE who completes us? Wow. Tam your H is an important and desired part of your life, he has many personal traits that you admire and learn from but he doesn't complete you!
Lastly, we spend too much damn time trying to "make ourselves happy" maybe we need to allow what is to just happen and go from there, if that makes any sense. Being HAPPY may be way beyond you right now but it will come! Patience.
I also feel for you as your world is so tied up with H, everything is so intertwined and that makes it a tough field to plough when you try to move away a bit. Keep at it, with or without H, you will be a better person in the end!

[Walking]

Tam - you rock. You know what you're doing here? - you're standing up for yourself.

Now we're getting somewhere.

I think how we post here reflects how we are in our real life and I've noticed that you've taken a lot of tough-love on the chin that would have flattened a lesser woman. Though that's admirable, I wondered if that represented what you were prepared to put up with in real life too (H telling you your sex life was bad so he had to take a lover and you taking that on as your big failure etc)

Likewise, early on you posted with lots of questions and asked for reassurance - like you were doing with your H.

Now, you are telling us what you would like out of this relationship - how you'd like to be communicated with and how you are bloody well doing the best you can and we better respect that.

Finally !!!! I love it. This means that you are getting stronger and better and are in a good place to honestly represent who you are to us and to your H - maybe even to your family?

Great work. It happens quickly when it happens. Do you ever go back and read your old posts? You should when you have a chance, I think it will really illustrate to you how far you have come.

Now, having said all that, can I comment on the stuff about your reluctance to detach and your gratefulness for having H so much in your life.

How do I say this so it maintains hope, but offers pragmatism?

I get that that level of connectedness was good for you - but it would seem by his behaviour, it wasn't working for him. You say that him in your life makes you a better person, but he's not acting like a better person, so maybe it doesn't do it for him.

He 'says' that he hasn't given up on your relationship - but his actions say something different, so there is only one of you in this relationship who is prepared to make all the sacrifices for the reunion - and in a way he's got you over a barrel, he doesn't have to change really, because he knows that you are going to put up with anything from him just so long as you have him (I know you've said that there are some non-negotiables like talking about relationships etc, but why would he believe that when he's involved in the ultimate betrayal and you are still hanging in there).

So detaching and getting a life, are really about getting to a place where you can see yourself objectively and see your relationship objectively. Where you take yourself out of all that connectedness and make decisions about if your 'completeness' couldn't be better served by a more balanced partnership or even your better self.

It's about putting yourself in a position of power to be able to see yourself like he sees himself. He's not in the same relationship you are at the moment Tam. That's the part you have to keep remembering.

Detaching and getting a life are important because on the off chance that he decides he no longer wants to be in a relationship with you, you are going to have to survive without him, and it's best to have a life and a sense of self in order to achive that.

I do know that it's probably too early in your journey to think about that stuff, so I just say, do it anyway. See how the work you've done already has made you stronger (Vegas, office, limited R talks, no breaking down in front of him - standing up for yourself to us) - continuing in this vein will continue the changes in you that will put you in a good place if and when he does come back.

Remember back in November, you couldn't even bear to consider that this would go on for 3 or 4 weeks? Here we are in April, nearly May, and you are still haning in there, a much more together and realistic woman than you were then.

Keep at it, but keep it real.

[2940831]

Thanks, Whatisis and Virginia.

Am tired and need to get some sleep but wanted to check in.

Virginia, as always, you are amazing. Your post was a perfect blend of recognizing some positives and pointing out some things to think about and work on. Reading your post made me feel so empowered by both making me feel good about what I have accomplished and making me want to fight for what I still have to accomplish and learn, both of which give me strength in different ways. So, well done to YOU, my friend. Thank you for listening to my needs and following through on them.

I do know that in real life I do allow myself to get pushed around... I hate "rocking the boat" - hate conflict of any kind. To that end, I tend to take things and take things and take things and then at some point blow off some steam. I know that's not necessarily healthy, but it's been my way to deal with conflict. To that end, H is walking all over me right now because I'm allowing it. I see it. I get it. AND it's getting better, not quickly, but it's getting better. I can SEE how the positive DBing changes I have made have brought him closer, and I can SEE when I mess up how it pushes him away. I pray that the strength I continue to seek on a daily basis will help me to gradually keep tipping the scales on the side of the good things continually increasing to outweigh the bad things. I realize that I'm being treated like this because of me, that I need to change before H can change.

So what I was going to tell you last night before I ended up derailing on my rampage was that I am beginning to have those "angry" feelings again towards H, this situation, myself, etc. I don't know if I can explain it well with how tired I am right now, but I guess I just feel like that with each passing day I continue to feel less and less close to him. I guess that is good because it means I'm detaching. At the same time, I feel an increasing sense of sadness and fear that when/if he decides he wants to work on this that it's going to be too late for ME!

I think these feelings have crept up the past few days because of the ML twice last week and the positive advances H did and said to me last week. While at the time it admittedly felt good (whether that's right or wrong to feel that way), now that he's still not recommitting to working on us (even if that means he is not necessarily coming home to our bed but would maybe stay at the office every night or sleep on our couch, etc.) I find a quiet anger stirring inside of me. I have found thoughts creeping in my head more so than usual of anger and bewilderment. How in the world did we get here to this horrible place? MY H IS SLEEPING WITH OW! AND I'm just sitting here and allowing it! I feel like a crazy person. At the same time, if I stand up for myself, he may leave for good. If I give him an ultimatum, it's probably still too soon and he may leave for good. So, what is the answer then? I go back to what Jody told me when I was having similar, though less intense, feelings right before Vegas of feeling like I was "done" with this.

Jody told me to "act as if" I'm done but not to tell H that I'm done. She told me to think about how I would act if it really was over and to act that way without saying it is over. Although, as with most of this, that is easier said than done, that is my only choice right now to cope with these feelings and continue to hang on. I'm not ready to give up yet, but I just feel my heart breaking more and more with each passing day and am so scared that as he continues to sleep with another woman while staying married to me there is going to be so much bitterness and resentment built up in me that it may be too late to get through it. I'd like to think that I can get through anything, that my M and my H mean the world to me and that with my drive and determination I can do whatever it takes to get through this. I still feel that way, but at the same time, the anger and resentment and bewilderment are creeping up inside me...

So I was thinking yesterday about these feelings I'm having and guess when I read some of your posts I just maybe let my feelings take over and went off on my tangent, if that makes sense.

I just started to read the books called "How Can I Get Through to You?" by Terrence Real. My counselor recommended it. It talks about bridging the communication gap between men and women.

Ironically, I just started reading it last night, and the second chapter discusses how woman have learned through the years to keep putting up with things from their H's continually until they build up so much resentment that they are miserable. He talks about learning to find our voice, stand up for ourselves, that while that may cause further distress in the short-term, in the long-term it may just be what the doctor ordered. He listed some examples of situations where the wives had finally stood up for themselves and taken a "risk" by doing so and that the H's either came back home if they had left or continued to want to stay in the M, etc. At some point, that may be what I have to do to really make a substantial change in the dynamics of what is going on right now. This is not something I'm ready to do anytime in the near future, just something that I'm beginning to think about, again, because I realize that by my accommodating behaviors with H I am not bringing about the permanent changes that I want/need.

At the same time, when I read that chapter in the book, I felt a bit disjointed in that Michele talks about NOT talking about R/M issues in the circumstances I am currently in, yet Terrence says to stand up for yourself. Jody says that DBing is about have self-respect and dignity and treating yourself lovingly and detaching and drawing your H closer to you with these actions. So maybe it's the combination of using the ACTIONS of detaching as the way of standing up for yourself? I don't know. I'm trying to make it all make sense...

Yes, H's actions right now are not following his words. Worse, yet, while he says he understands how that could be confusing for me, he offers no explanation for why he is doing it other than he is not ready to come home "full-time" yet. As I mentioned, why, then can't he sleep at the office or on our couch rather than in OW's bed? He says he's not confused about what he wants. So WTH is he doing???

I get that that level of connectedness was good for you - but it would seem by his behaviour, it wasn't working for him. You say that him in your life makes you a better person, but he's not acting like a better person, so maybe it doesn't do it for him.

I'll think on this, Virginia. When I look back on us before this blew up, I honestly feel like I/he/we were happy in most aspects of our R and lives except for the sex issue, which obviously was huge for mostly him but brought distance between both of us, and the communication issue regarding personal issues. Those two biggies brought about a breakdown in other aspects of our R/M as far as feeling close and a sense of connectedness. But with regard to most everything else, I honestly believe we were both happy. So I want to believe that if we can only figure out how to repair the two biggies and that further I can take what I'm learning about GAL outside of him in the many facets of our lives that are intertwined everything else will gradually fall into place. I may learn/see differently as the journey continues, but that's what I see/feel now.

Yes, back in November I did not know how my life was going to go on, how I could possibly endure this pain for days, weeks, let alone months. And now it is almost May... and I'm still hanging on. As I said, I'm not a quitter. That's why I keep coming back here. That's why I keep asking for your tough love and to hang in there with me and keep pushing me. At the same time, I guess my ambivolent feelings the last few days have caused me to think about some more drastic changes to rattle things up a bit more. And it also makes me think about how one knows when enough is enough and to give that final ultimatum. Right now, D is not a better option for me, and I'm not even close to ultimatums. But life is short. How long do I want to stay on this roller coaster? Until I stand up for myself and refuse to be treated like this, H has no reason to change or take my hand to help me off the roller coaster. At this point, it is my ACTIONS that I must use to demonstrate my intolerance of this behavior, not my words. Actions will bring him closer, as I have seen demonstrated already. Words will push him away. Words are easy for me; actions are hard. It's time to keep pushing myself toward the hard road...

Good night for now. Thanks again, Virginia, for a wonderful post that gave me much strength and empowerment.

[25yearsmlc]

29,

I want to understand something. You said you guys had two "biggies" for R issues. One was sex, and the other was....communicating about sex?? Is that correct?
Are you both in agreement about this? If so, what are you doing about it?

As for your anger hijacking your mind at times, get used to it. Even if you reconcile, you've still been really and deeply hurt. At this point in the whole ugly process, the LBSer (you) are extremely and exclusively focussed on getting him back, then the next stage is working on oneself...you are getting there... So at this point in this whole weird painful process, you simply can't look at the present anger too much b/c it hinders your progress in the internal work you are doing, (such as forgiving and improving as a woman). Plus, we KNOW our anger sure doesn't help us get the WAS back. SO we don't deal with the anger at this point. Certainly not in front of the WAS.

But the thing is, at some point your anger WILL need to be dealt with. Forgiveness does NOT depend on your H coming back. Forgiveness is something you need to do to prevent you from letting your life be consumed by justifiable but unhealthy, anger and hurt. Haven't you ever met a woman who has been divorced and talks about the ow her H left her for....only to find out it was a DECADE AGO...???? and she's Still talking about it within the first 15 minutes of meeting someone. At some point you'll say, "I will not be a bitter ex-wife, OR a bitter wife..." And you'll mean it.
That is one of many reasons I come here to this bb. So I never become that type of "life long victim".

H has lived far away for two years this summer, when I and d9 will join him. I can argue and debate that choice for a decade, but in the end, it's what I'm willing to try...I digress. My point is that you should expect periodic "ambushes" of emotion wherein a small item or comment acts as a trigger point for pain. You have to keep it from making you spew, and then do some internal work on it. One tiny example for me was recent. D18 graduates from HS and our children have heard for decades about "the graduation trip" in which we'd take them anywhere they want to go (well, not Baghdad, etc). But THIS summer we cannot swing it, we have a move coming up, H's income is lower now than it was before his idiocy, although in the fall he'll make more (a gazillion dollars and "this will all be worth it, blah blah blah"...) and she has to get ready for college, I'll have a new job. SO it looks like a summer that doesn't have room for an extended trip overseas. Suddenly H says HE can't make it this summer b/c "certification of the hospital prevents Him from going..." blah blah blah and I realize that HE thinks HE is taking her WITHOUT anyone else, for a "father daughter" trip. I'm thinking, "you gotta be kidding, you left before her junior year of high school-which DID impact her grades,btw- and NOW you want to swoop in and show her the world??!!??

So, it triggered a lot of resentment in me. But I asked myself what I'd prefer, him ignoring her? Even though I cannot say I am "done" with that, I do know that it's FAR better for H to at least WANT to take her and maybe try to make up in some small way, for all the time he missed. Things like this crop up and WE are reconciling. I don't want my anger to spoil the "NOW" moments we have. But then, I don't have an OW to deal with (I hope) so I believe in a big way it is easier for me than some women here. But I DO have children and when someone hurts them, I get VERY upset...so in that respect this is harder WITH kids than without. We MUST deal with each other, no choice there, AND we must protect their hearts as much as we can.

Don't be freaked out by your anger. You'd be nuts not to feel some anger. There may come a time when there is too much pain and betrayal for you to go back, and that is usually when the LBSer comes to believe that trust cannot or will not be restored. Or that the conditions needed in order for the LBSer to really trust and really forgive, etc. are just too much work for the WAS. Especially if the WAS is proud. Their pride can ruin things, and so can ours.
....You are NOT at that stage by a long shot. Right now the more you ask, the more you push him away.

I wish you could look at this as "practice" at being a widow but NOT one who is still in grief. I wish you'd become a woman who is seeking and finding out what ELSE the world offers her. Does Any of this resonate? Hope so. Good luck
j-

[2940831]

Hey, 25 --

Well, do you think that Lin and 1210 have abandoned me???? Haven't heard from them in several days now... Lin and 1210, I hope you're still out there and will continue to post on my thread.

You said you guys had two "biggies" for R issues. One was sex, and the other was....communicating about sex?? Is that correct?

The two biggies were sex (a lack thereof) and communication about personal issues in general, not just about sex.

Are you both in agreement about this?

Who knows, as we have such a hard time communicating about personal things, but I would say that he would definitely agree with that. Whether he would say there were other issues,I'm not sure, but I think we would agree that those are the biggies. He did also mention that he wished I would lighten up a bit more when we went out and whatnot, but I don't think that was really a huge issue.

If so, what are you doing about it?

Well, as far as the sex, I have obviously been having more of it with him that I ever did when we were "together." I've definitely demonstrated my desire to work on this with him, but I think he believes that I'm only doing it because he wants me to, not because I want to. I know that this will just take time and repetition for him to believe that I want to be with him. I still have a long way to go and am determined. Further, obviously I am not SUPPOSED to be having sex with him at all right now...

As for the communication, who knows... I can't really work on that yet, other than to let it go for now and work on NOT talking about R/M/OW issues. I know that. I know I talk too much and control the conversations, etc. I started talking with my counselor this week on what I can read/work on to start learning from MY end what I can learn about myself and what I can try as far as communicating with him that might help. My counselor and I are going to start working on that, even though I can't really practice that much yet.

As far as being more outgoing, I have definitely done a lot in that area since we discussed this. I have worked really hard when we are out together to let my hair down more and let any of life's stresses go out the door. I have been drinking more, but not excessively by any means, just enough to help me relax more. I used to drink more when I was younger and had pretty much stopped altogether several years ago. Now I'm just having a few drinks when we go out. I've been working on having a really good time and just letting my guard down some. I'm pretty sure that he has noticed the difference here, but he has not said anything about it.

I can understand what you're saying regarding having anger and "triggers," even after the reconciling begins. I'm glad that your H wants to spend time with your daughter, but I can certainly understand how thinking about their past would make you upset. As you said, it's important to focus on the now and be glad that he wants to spend time with her now, for we can only affect the future, not the past, right?

Don't be freaked out by your anger. You'd be nuts not to feel some anger. There may come a time when there is too much pain and betrayal for you to go back, and that is usually when the LBSer comes to believe that trust cannot or will not be restored. Or that the conditions needed in order for the LBSer to really trust and really forgive, etc. are just too much work for the WAS. Especially if the WAS is proud. Their pride can ruin things, and so can ours.
....You are NOT at that stage by a long shot. Right now the more you ask, the more you push him away.

I know you're right. I'm having a really hard time with this. The last few days have been really challenging for me. For some reason, I have just been thinking more and more about how crazy this all is, that my H is sleeping with OW and I'm just letting it happen and praying that he will come to his senses... I feel like an idiot! There is a part of me that just wants to say that enough is enough; if you've truly decided that you want to work on us, then start sleeping at the office if you need to or on our couch, but don't continue to sleep with OW and say you want to work things out with me. Does he not see how cruel that is? It's tearing me apart. Don't get me wrong; I would much rather him tell me that than to what he was saying before, that he didn't want to be married to me anymore. At the same time, it just makes no sense and hurts so much... I'm just frustrated and angry and am tired of living this way.

I know you're going to tell me that all of this is under my control, that it's up to me and me alone to make me happy. But I feel like the only way to do that is to just completely get him out of my life and let him go. I can't do that with the business. I have to see and talk to him on occasion, and right now that is tearing me apart. If I continue to have contact with him, my heart keeps breaking, again and again and again.

I saw him this morning for a business meeting we had. It just about killed me. First off I of course notice that he did his hair nice today with gel in it and everything, so my mind automatically drifts to knowing that he stayed at OW's house last night, as he has not been showering at the office I know. (And I'm NOT assuming that; I really know. Soap hasn't been used in the shower, etc.) So I'm bummed as soon as I see him. I know I shouldn't think about these things and need to just let them go, but I guess I don't know how to do that... My mind wanders to these things, and I just don't know how to control it.

Then during our meeting we're both talking about how we did this together in the business and did that and how we are GOING to do this and do that in the future, etc., etc., etc. Of course every single time either me or H talks about future plans, my heart breaks again, wondering if we even have a future together. How do you let all of this go? I just don't know.

Then I go to leave, and I'm just feeling so defeated and upset. I just want so badly for him to say to me, "Honey, it's over with OW. I'm coming home." I know I may not be ready for him to come home; I know that. But I would so much rather him at least sleep on our couch or at the office than with her... At any rate, I'm sitting in my car getting ready to leave, and we finish our conversation and say our good-byes, and I just sit there looking up at him. He says "what?" I just keep looking at him with puppy dog eyes and don't say anything. So he leans down and kissed me softly on the lips. No passionate kiss, just a quick peck. And that was it. Then I left. Then I was mad at myself for "asking" for that with my eyes. I was mad for wanting some immediate gratification... I just hurt so much, and to have him show me any type of affection helps so much, if even for a moment... I know that's wrong. I know it... Then I think back to how I told him that him coming home was giving me mixed messages, etc. So then *I* "ask" him for a kiss? What am I thinking? Ugh... Now I'm giving HIM mixed messages.

So broke down in tears a few times tonight. Just feeling so alone and crazy for putting up with this. I don't want to live like this. I want my H and my M back. I know it's going to be a hard, and probably harder, road than we are even on now once we do start working on us, but at least we would be working on us. I keep wondering how long I can keep this up. I don't like the alternatives of D or giving him an ultimatum, but does that mean I just keep living in this crazy limbo land forever? I am so not a quitter, so I'm worried that I'll just hang in there until the end of time!!! At the same time, I'm so angry at myself for, once again, knowing what I need to do to improve my chances of him coming home sooner and then just getting caught up in the heat of the moment and acting impulsively and going backwards... Ugh!!!!

So, the next thing is tonight when I was upset I decided to call him, not to talk about R/M/OW, but just to ask him something about the business just to talk to him. Well, he answered his phone and said that he was with a real estate agent putting in an offer on a property... Uh-oh. I ask him about it, and he said he would tell me later. I called him back about an hour later, and he was still working on the paperwork.

So, now I potentially have to deal with the whole new property issue... I'm grateful that he still wants to and enjoys doing the business with me. I really am. And I know there are so many WAS's who don't want to have anything to do with their LBS's and are even verbally cruel and mean to them. At the same time, it hurts me grately to be in business with him right now - because of the contact we have and me knowing that he is with someone else. It's just really hard. I don't know the right answer.

We'll see if he calls me back tonight. I'm not going to call him again. I've already called him too many times tonight...

I'm really, really, really tired of this, guys... Sigh.

I wish you could look at this as "practice" at being a widow but NOT one who is still in grief. I wish you'd become a woman who is seeking and finding out what ELSE the world offers her. Does Any of this resonate?

Sorry, 25. Wish I could say that I could do this. I can't "pretend" he's "dead" when I have to talk to him usually every day somehow for something about the business. And my grief is still very much alive. Even though I enjoy myself when I'm out having fun with friends and whatnot, H is still on my mind, and my hurt is still very much real,especially when I have to answer as to how H is doing or to tell H hi from them or why H isn't there, etc., etc... I hate acting like everything is okay all of the time. It hurts.

I don't feel like I can truly move on to find out what else the world has to offer me until I completely let him go, and I just don't want to do that yet, and don't think I can unless we aren't in business together... This sucks!!!!!!

[2940831]

So H just called and was really nice at the first of the conversation. He even said "hi, babe" when I answered the phone. I don't even remember the last time he said that to me... It was probably just a slip.

Then we talked for a while, and he told me about the offer he had made. Then, I don't know what happened, but there was just silence... I waited a painfully long period of time, and then I finally asked if he was still there. It went downhill from there. He would answer anything I asked him with a short, almost rude answer. I finally asked him if anything was wrong. He said no, that he was just looking on the internet. So I talked to him a bit longer and just got sick of the way he was talking to me, so I just said that it was obvious he didn't feel like talking. He said he was just calling me back from when I called earlier and did I have anything to talk about. I said no, that I was just asking him the business question. So then he said thank you and that he would talk to me later. I just sarcastically said "yeah" and hung up the phone. I don't know why he was being that way...

So then I fumed for a while and decided to call him back (uh-oh). I got voicemail and left him a message to call me back about some other business item. He called back a few minutes later, and I asked him the business item and a few more things, and then I asked him if we are okay, and he said "yes, absolutely." As I talked to him this time, it almost seemed as if he had too much to drink or something... I don't know how this could be since he'd been with the real estate agent and was back at the office... I know he was probably drinking at the office, but he sounded almost three sheets to the wind! And it takes quite a bit of alcohol for him to get that way... Maybe he's just tired in combination with drinking, but he just seemed really out of it...

I was so tempted to say something about the real estate deal, about me not wanting to do it if we're not going to be together, etc. But I didn't... I'll just let it go and see if it even comes to fruition before I decide what to do about it.

I was also tempted to tell him that I'm getting frustrated and tired of this. I haven't said anything like that at all yet in a way that sounded firm, if that makes sense. I'm sure I've said it through my tears in a pleading sort of way, but nothing with a stern voice. I caught myself though and decided that if he has been drinking too much this is definitely not the time to say something like that. Again, I just get so dang impulsive and feel so desperate and just act on it... I really have to work on that. Further, if I do decide at some point to approach him with that, it needs to be in person. Also, I know I've said that I need to "sit" on my feelings for a while to make sure that is how I really feel before I act on it, especially something serious like this. I haven't really expressed any anger/frustration to him about this whole thing. It's always just been sadness and desperation. But I'm really getting sick of this. I just need to relax and let this go for tonight. I'm getting myself all worked up.

At the same time, I really, really, really am getting tired of this. Is it normal to feel this way??? I'm afraid with how impulsive I am sometimes that I'm going to "snap" soon and freak out on him and tell him I'm done and a bunch of other things I know are too soon to say.

Why are these feelings coming on now? Is it because we ML twice last week and he's still not home and I'm just hurt and angry and feeling used? Why now????? I HATE THIS!!!!!!

[Walking]

Tammy I'm in a serious rush and can't post properly now, but need to comment on

I can't "pretend" he's "dead" when I have to talk to him usually every day somehow for something about the business. And my grief is still very much alive.

I don't buy that. I reckon it's an excuse. There are women all over this board who have children with their WASs and they successfully detach and successfully get a life. It's the same, if not more intense thing.

I'll be back soon.

[Walking]

Hey girlfriend,

You are really making some revelations here. I love

Also, I know I've said that I need to "sit" on my feelings for a while to make sure that is how I really feel before I act on it, especially something serious like this.

that was a really important thing for me too. Understanding that I didn't have to shoot from the hip about every little thing that happened around me. I always thought that capacity to respond quickly and responsively was a good thing - I thought it demonstrated honesty, and I think in professional life it usually does, but in personal life it can be very powerful to reflect on what it is we want to say before we actually say it.

I like how your challenges are changing. I notice

The last few days have been really challenging for me. For some reason, I have just been thinking more and more about how crazy this all is, that my H is sleeping with OW and I'm just praying that he will come to his senses... There is a part of me that just wants to say that enough is enough;

That's a big improvement on some of the challenges you've had in the past. You are becoming realistic about what's going on around you. You are finally blaming what ails you, rather than melting down in your own pain. This is good. I know it still feels crap, but it is good progress.

Some of the things you are mulling over are stuff that you've given yourself answers to before. Like you've been talking about how you don't like the alternatives of D or giving him an ultimatum, but a few posts ago you said that Jody had suggested that "act as if" you're done but not to tell H that you're done. That is a really good alternative. You would establish the distance you need to so that he misses you and you would be "doing" something to help restore the marriage. Why do you discount that as a strategy?

Tam I want to comment on

I'm grateful that he still wants to and enjoys doing the business with me.

maybe it's just that I haven't understood how that's all working, but in your post where you called him and he was doing a real estate deal, it sounded as though he was doing that independently and he hadn't spoken to you about it? If that's the case, is he really enjoying doing business with you - or is it another one of his head in the sand things where he wants the business to keep going, so he is going along as though nothing has changed, but acting unilaterally on a range of things? What do you think?

I think it's time you brushed up on DBing 101. The simple rules about hang up first, don't call unless you're returning a call etc etc. I noticed this

Then, I don't know what happened, but there was just silence... I waited a painfully long period of time, and then I finally asked if he was still there.

That's why we advocate 'being the first to hang up or end conversations'

I just sarcastically said "yeah" and hung up the phone.

Mmm, so that worked to bring him closer to you?

I don't know why he was being that way...

see above and take a guess .... Know what I mean????

I've been trying to think of a way to give you some resources that will help you consider how you want to take the rest of this ride. The last few posts have been a bit of a pity party. I know you are upset. I know you are depressed, but you have the choice about how to deal with this and you can choose to take the lonely miserable feel-sorry-for-Tam ride, or you can be grateful for the resources that you have at your disposal, and grateful for the learnings you have the opportunity to make.

To that end, I've found two posters who I think illustrate a good variety of how individuals can and do deal with this stuff. I've linked them here MariS, a woman about 35, married for 10 years, with her partner for several years before that, he's been having an affair for about the same amount of time as yours, she's got one small child and Mothermovingon, late 30s, she's an artist, she has 4 children, 1 x triples who are 7 and an 11 yr old start with her first thread - Husband moved out, having an affair-what now? all of her posts are nicely catalouged on the link page.

Have a read of them, and reflect on what they tell you about how you'd like to be. The bottom line is, the quicker you get happy and sorted, the quicker you are likely to reconcile with your H.

Have a great day.

PS - how's your GAL going? Is the girls-dinner-night plan in place? Have you been going to the gym?

[25yearsmlc]

29,

I'll read the rest of the posts shortly and write more later. For now, let me state the obvious. You have to get out of the business you have with him. It is not easy, but it is also NOT complicated. Quit and leave, start over, Buy him out, or delegate all contact with him to someone else. Meanwhile, ONLY speak of business items with him. Right now, you are simply being slowly, but surely destroyed inside.

Every suggestion I made generated a rationalization from you, for pursuing him. No matter what WE say, I think you'll keep doing what you are doing until the End is obvious. You may well lose your H no matter what you do. We just know what does NOT help and you are doing that. I understand the smothering in a way, b/c you feel you are losing him, you want to possess him that much more. But it is NOT working..... I understand he has put you in a horrible position and HE is sending the Mixed signals by sleeping with her, but throwing you some scraps often enough, to keep you in business, literally and emotionally. Of course you cannot keep this facade up much longer, you'll have a meltdown and maybe lose everything...the M, the business, your self respect, and yet more days/nights of your life feeling like crap and, wondering why, why, why??? Don't let yourself circle the drain until you go down it.

You are going to have to remove yourself from the sitch and MAYBE he'll come back, but what you are doing NOW is NOT getting him back. Do you think it IS working b/c he has not fled the state? Facts are that ow is still very much around, and your h isn't saying anything REAL or committing about the M, just that somehow you two will be "okay." I don't even know if he's talking about the M, or the business. DO NOT ASK him for the answer!! Seems it is just like the phrase "cake and eating it too", don't you think? Just do your best to lessen his participation in your life. Take a night class asap and do SOMETHING at night that he does not do and
wait WAIT, I forgot, no matter what I say, you are going to say you cannot do it. You are too busy, or lonely or ....STUCK in victimhood. I want to help you and obviously I'm using the 2x4 method. But right now, your h has faced few consequences for behavior that really is outrageous. Answer this question, 29...what would it take for you to believe it's over? Do you have a line in the sand somewhere in you? Don't feel judged now. We ALL have lines in the sand and sometimes those lines shift or are blurry...but I really think you have to start thinking about Plan B. Bottom line, Plan A is what you are doing and it is not working.

You know, I do believe that "where the head goes, the heart will follow."


Part of you already knows that this IS crazy... b/c it is. Please TALK to yourself and commit to Not asking your h for ANY affection/words of affirmation/approval/permission/status of the R...Please just try it for one week, then another. You'll feel better, stronger and who knows? Maybe you'll see some results...
j-

[2940831]

Hey, guys --

I'm in a hurry but wanted to post real quick to get some feedback...

I had a problem last night at our job site with a hot water tank. It was in the evening, and H told me he was going out to play poker last night. I tried to call him, but no answer. Left a voicemail. I called one of the construction guys, and he helped me through it. Then one of the other rooms started leaking water, so tried to call H again. No answer. Had the other construction guy help me over the phone with what to do. Left probably 3 or 4 messages for H as the night progressed and things kept going wrong. His phone rang but then went to voicemail every time I called him. My last call to him was probably around 9:30 or so.

So got everything taken care of the best I could but just found myself getting really, really angry. I wasn't angry that H was supposedly out playing poker, but I was angry that I was giving a pretty serious problem and couldn't reach him and he wasn't calling me back. And then I was just angry at the whole situation. What if there was an emergency with me or a family member? I guess it just brought all of the issues we are facing right now to a screeching halt in front of my eyes. I grew angrier and angrier as the night went on.

To top it all off, my brother-in-law let me know just yesterday that they were having a birthday party for him tonight. Supposedly he had told H about it but H didn't remember to tell me. At any rate, I told him I already had plans and didn't know if I was going to be able to make it, just so I could set the stage depending on what I decided to do. Brother-in-law kept asking me why H wasn't answering his phone, and it just turned the knife further in my heart. Then sister-in-law was really sad when she heard that H hadn't told me about the party, and I told her we had been really busy and were just "passing in the night" these days, as the knife takes another turn in my heart.

So I just had a really hard night.

H never did call me back last night. I had to be at the job site at 9 this morning, and he was there. I asked him if he had left his phone in the car, and he said yes at first, but then he said he had it with him but that the battery died. Well, I know for a fact that the phone rang every single time I called him, and it goes straight to voicemail if the battery is dead... Then he said that it was on vibrate and he didn't check it until their first "break" and that he started listening to my first message when his phone died and that my first message was from earlier about something totally unrelated to the apartments. I don't remember leaving any messages earlier for him, but whatever. He also said that he was downtown, which is not where he told me he was going. When I asked him about it, he looked told me that some people wanted to have it at a different place so it was closer or something like that. When he was telling me this, he looked away from me, and I felt like he was lying. Inside I'm wondering whether he was with OW all night. I obviously have some very serious trust issues with him, and that scares me. How can I ever trust him again? He has had such a bad time with lying to me in the past. It's just too easy for him. I hate that.

Anyway, I let it go for then. And I asked him about the party tonight. He said he was planning on going and that BNL had not told him about it until late afternoon yesterday, which didn't surprise me. I told him that I wasn't going, and he said okay. I told him that I already have plans. So I told him I would call and let SNL know. But then instead I asked H to call, so he did. So, I made a good move of declining family dinner tonight, which was incredibly hard because everyone is going to be there, and then I made H make the call to let them know.

Well, I went about my business for a while and just kept feeling the anger raging inside me.

So I went and talked to him again. I hope I didn't just screw everything up, but I just exploded. I wasn't yelling or anything like that, but I just voiced my frustrations. I told him I was upset that I was having a really difficult time at the job site with these problems and couuldn't reach him and that he never called me at all (not even this morning). He said he didn't get my message until 3:30 this morning. I told him he still could have called, and I wasn't sleeping well anyway. I then went into what if there was an emergency, I got in a car accident or something or something happened to our parents, etc. I told him that just like he had said to me before, I guess the reality of this situation kind of came to a head for me last night. As you know, I was already feeling some angry emotions the past several days, and the events of last night just brought everything to the surface.

I told him that BNL had asked me why H wasn't answering his phone and that it was awkward and that SNL was upset because H hadn't told me about the dinner plans and that it was just really hard to act as if everything is fine with everyone.

I then really got into it... I asked him if he still wanted to work things out with me, and he said yes. I told him that it was getting really hard for me, that I wanted to stay married and work on our M and be a good wife but that with each day he told me he wants to be with me but stays with her it just is turning the knife in my heart and that I don't want it to be too late for ME when he comes home. He said he understood. I told him that, like he said, life is short, and I don't want to live my life like this, that I want to be happy.

Anyway, I don't remember what else I said, but just some more things along those line. I was careful not to give him any ultimatums, and I specifically told him that I didn't want him to come home before he was ready because I knew that wouldn't work, and he said he appreciated that. I told him I wasn't trying to pressure him into doing anything he isn't ready to do but that I am just getting really frustrated myself.

I asked him if he had anything to say about what I had just said, and he said no, that he was too angry. He was mad at BNL and SNL for acting like BNL had told H about party much earlier in the week and also that he feels they are both selfish and that it's always about them and that they've missed H's parties for his birthday on numerous occasions. So when he said he was too angry, I asked him if he was angry at me or BNL/SNL. He kind of mumbled, but I think he said BNL/SNL. Then he said he was going to call them and tell him he couldn't go. Then I felt bad and told him I certainly didn't want him to not go because of me.

Anyway, I had to leave for an appointment, so I think we said a few more things, and I asked him again if he was absolutely sure that he still wanted to work on our M, and he said yes. Ugh.... So I just gave him a hug and left.

We've seen each other a few more times today and have acted like nothing was said/happened. I can tell there is a bit of tension, but nothing major.

So, what do you think? Did I royally screw up? I just felt like I had to take a stand for myself. I know it was probably pressuring him, but I just hate living in this world where no one knows what is going on and I choose to "pretend" since there has been no finality to this whole thing. I'm just tired of it. And last night just brought all of those angry feelings to the surface, I guess.

H seemed a little mad maybe. But it was hard to tell. He seemed more mad at BNL and SNL than anything, when they certainly arent' the ones to blame for US....

At least I backed out of going tonight with the family. As much as that hurts me, I feel good about doing that. I kind of wish he was going though so that he would have to have a little pressure from them about last night from BNL and not telling me about party from SNL and just me not being there in general. Consequences of his actions, right??? I also felt good about asking H to make the call that I was not going instead of me making the call.

So, I'm not sure how to feel or what to think now. I felt really relieved right after I told him, like I had gotten a lot off of my chest. But now it's been several hours, and I'm feeling anxious and lost now.

I can't explain it very well, but I just have this horrible, horrible feeling inside - like that things are over between us. But then I make myself remember that even after everything I said today he still said he wanted to work on us. I would think after telling him that I was in pain that he would have said if he didn't want to work it out anymore, but I don't know.

So I go from my heart fluttering one minute remembering his words and hoping this will work out to the next minute that lost feeling inside that I can't describe very well. Then I get angry again that I am going through this hell. I feel like an idiot for just sitting here while my H is sleeping with OW.

Sorry for venting. Just needed to get this out. HELP!!!!!!