Breakthrough ... and stuck

[heatherg]

I wanted to expand on this just to be a bit clearer:

I'm not trying to come down on anybody either, that has nothing to do with anything. Chrome and LFL have been nothing but supportive of me on my threads and I have no reasons not to do the same. I'm just trying to call a spade a spade.

When I said I'm just trying to call a spade a spade, I mean about the harm in EAs in general. As to Chrome and LFL specifically, I'm not sure how that came up but remember I'm in no position to judge, that is surely not and has never been my intention with any of my words. I am speaking about the harm of EAs IN GENERAL, from the perspective of somebody who's BTDT.

[heatherg]

Even in the midst of my emotional turmoil I was able to say to myself, boy am I going to pay for this somehow. Hmmm... self-destructive to a point. But when you are in pain, you tend to not give a damn. Let the chips fall where they may.

Girl, don't I know it. My chips are still falling.

[LustForLife]

There might very well be a time when Chrome feels it best to talk about his EA with you. He and his W might be able to see it in a totally different light, as just another cry for help from a hurting kid…. who knows…. I just don’t think that time is now. She can’t handle the truth because she can’t even handle her own truth.

I think she WANTS an excuse like another EA to keep her safe. It would take all the heat off of her and throw it right back on Chrome. She gets to go free for another year before having to face her stuff. How will that help the M?

Didn't want you to think I was ignoring your points here but I don't feel like I should comment on some of that. Chrome needs to figure that out for himself.

LFL

[OG_Lou]

MoJo said:
No problem. It's really too bad that I can't just come over and have a threesome with some of you guys and your wives. Some things are better taught by demonstration.-JK, JK, JK.


Threesome might be a little over the top IMHO. Maybe a book with some pictures and steamy two-part novel that had average sounding/descriptive women, that wanted her average sounding/descriptive common sounding man to make love to her but he wouldn't, would be a good start.

The book would have to portray how she felt neglected, and how the lack of a satisfying sexual life influenced her satisfaction-with-life level.

The second part would have the genders reversed. Similar story.

On the last page, have the two people married to each other.

MoJo, with your knowledge of books, or someone else, I am sure you/they could cut and paste two stories together to come up with a book to demonstrate how living in a SSM effects R's and people.


As far as affecting and causing any significant change to the LD partner, that is another hypothesis/can of worms.


About dating??

Are their any dating sites where people rate the dates/people they had?

Lou

[Corri]

LFL:

Thanks Corri. I admire your ability to empathize.

LOL!!!! Oh... yes, that is me, Queen of Empathizing. Well, I'm really great at it when all is perfect and calm in my kingdom. I really suck at it when the person who needs empathy the most is the person who just hurt me/pissed me off. "Off with their heads!" is usually my MO at that point.

I'm pretty good at that too, but I am piss poor at the integrity stuff. Choosing to do things when I know full well they would hurt others. But my selfishness tends to win out...sometimes. But like you said, all of us are flawed so my self-esteem isn't too shot, luckily. I do feel like I am a good person overall. I just want to have my cake and eat it too.

Oh, sister, don't I KNOW it!! And as George Carlin often points out... what the he!! is the point of having cake if you can't eat it, too?

Welcome to the human race.

Corri

[OG_Lou]

LFL said
...if we are all honest with ourselves, all of us are probably on this board in one way or another to meet some unmet needs...validation, escape, many issues that have been mentioned.
That is the way I see some interactions.

I also see lots of help of help being offered. Some help borders (the right amount and type) on filling unmet needs, validations, we as individuals want from our SO but we haven't been able to make that happen with our SO.

A simplified version of the problem can be looked at in two parts. We as individuals have needs and have an abundance of something. We receive help and try to help others. How can an individual avoid forming some type of bond with another poster?
When is that bonding/friendship/cyber group member, in appropriate?

The reverse can be true when someone takes a post as an attack and it wasn't meant that way.

Cobra, You have lots of good thoughts concerning the problems associated with EA's and their causes/cures.

Lou

[fearless]

First I hope Chrome is not too lost or overwhelmed searching through his thread

Second I think this discussion of EAs just demonstrates their problem and their issue in a marriage. They are hard to define, they usually begin innocently enough, it is hard to tell exactly where the point is where they cross over into dangerous territory, without physical contact, direct talk about sex, etc. they also are easy to "defend" to yourself and/or spouse, etc. I know some people think I am overly cautious in my approach to friendships with men. Being in a career where I have constant contact with men at work, at business functions after work and during travel, I feel that having a set boundary works for me so that I can interact with men comfortably in professional and social settings and yet I never have to worry about sending any type of mixed signals to these acquaintances/friends. I suppose it is possible that I am missing out on something but in the end the point is that I respect and VALUE my relationship MORE. Of course is that not the key? When we define what we VALUE and want, then it makes our actions and decisions easier. My XH had the feeling that I made all sorts of sacrifices to him in our marriage. I never felt that way at all. The only sacrifices I EVER made were to the MARRIAGE. Since I was half of the marriage, I felt like the sacrifices I made were for me just as much as they were for XH. FWIW, that mindset made decision making easier for me.

Third, I do not necessarily think Mrs Chrome is using the EA as an excuse. She MAY be but from what Chrome has mentioned I feel it is more likely that she is SHARING her feelings with Chrome which is a GOOD sign. While it can feel painful for Chrome to hear how he has hurt is wife, it is a great sign, IMHO, that she is willing to share with him and talk to him about it. If she was not willing to talk about her feelings and about the EA, THAT is where they would be in trouble.

Fourth, while I am all for direct honesty, I do not feel like I can make the decision of whether Chrome should tell his wife about LFL. My personal feeling is that he can kind of wrap that issue into a more general yet direct statement about his PAST behavior with EAs and reassure his wife that he seriously regrets any damage that he has done and is focused on never repeating those mistakes. Then he just needs to stick to that promise. Remember his last EA clearly crossed the line by involving physical contact. His relationship with LFL never reached that point.

Fifth I think that listening to what his wife said "you do not adore me..." and asking her to better define why she does not feel adored will give him an opportunity to hear more of what she wants. Remember she used to want to have him in the bathroom with her while she showered in the evening. Chrome was the one who stopped that and now wishes he had that contact with her again. It would be great if they BOTH wanted to start up a routine like that which is INTIMATE, allows for communication, gives them time to talk, etc.

Corri brought up a great point by talking about fear and fear of pain. I know she mentioned it on her thread about Betrayal Bonds also. Obviously Chrome and his wife BOTH have their own issues with fear which affects their communication on each side. Chrome definitely fears dealing with her concerns about EAs and what she thinks Chrome wants from her. Understandably because he is not sure what to do and that unsureness is uncomfortable for him. I think he also fears that by addressing the EA ramifications he may slow down the improvements he wants and needs in the marriage.

As far as his wife and her fear of what the EA meant and of her own need to deal with the EA, I think there is room for both empathy and pushing forward. For example, when she brings up a concern that Chrome "wants her to be like her (OW)", Chrome can say, "I understand how you feel that way but I want you to KNOW that I do not want her. I want YOU. I am committed to you and the marriage and I want you to feel committed to me and the marriage. I want us to build a strong marriage to raise our children." In that one paragraph Chrome HEARS her concern and empathizes with her so she KNOWS he heard her, he communicates his feelings and commitment to the marriage, states that he wants her commitment and ties in the children who are important to her and him. She would also see that he is NOT afraid of hearing her fears.

Off hand the only thing I can imagine her asking is something to the affect of HOW to build the strong marriage? That is where Chrome would be honest and says "I am still working on it. PART of the improvement to the marriage is with my personal counseling to become a better Chrome, a better husband and a better father. That is what I am personally committed to achieving." I would leave it at that and not push YET for her to volunteer the same commitment. I wonder what she would say. She might not say anything, she might ask what better means, etc. I assume she knows about his family background so adding specific things like telling her he is dealing with those issues and moving forward from them would be useful. (Of course you might hope she would be inspired herself but whether or not she is inspired to change is not the issue right now. LATER (4-8 weeks??) after Chrome has set an initial pattern he might then talk about the MC idea again.)

Just my thoughts on Chrome's conversation yesterday and what he can do to move forward.

[Corri]

Lou:

When is that bonding/friendship/cyber group member, in appropriate?

Great points, all. How many of us see one another as family? We are all awaiting Karne's bundle of joy. We did the same with Honeypot when Baby Pot came along.

We are a great big functioning dysfunction.

You know when you cross a line... and if you don't know it... you learn it. None of us are perfect.

So as my shrink says... have the courage to take what you have learned, and do the best you can with it. Be easy on yourself. But be honest, too. Honesty... is learned. And it is without a doubt, the most vulnerable position in which you can place yourself.

Corri

[Heywyre]

Good point Corri - my C and I also discussed honesty and trust and he said they go hand in hand, pretty hard to separate them and that is my biggest issue to deal with right now - lack of trust because of H lack of honesty

[OG_Lou]

Cobra
IMO, it doesn’t matter what his method was. It only matters that he felt he had to resort to some type of method to get her attention.
If I were Chrome, I would not have done it to get Mrs. Chrome's attention. It would have been more about her rejection/lack of interest in Chrom.

From my experiences, it is difficult and extreemly frustrating to be in a r with a W and thinking if I do certain things, "we" will have a good R. So I do those certain things and am ignored anyway.

Cobra, it's more like I have these things I want to happen in a R and it builds and builds till something leaks out and someone sees a value in what I am trying to give my W. Someone sees value in what I believe in. That feels good.

[b] Their whole life revolves around they partner or their parents doing the right thing. It is all shame-based driven. ]/b]
BTDT.

On moJo's thread, I made some inappropriate comments. MoJo straightened it up, saying she took the coments from the guys here as the guys wishing their W would do/say some of the things MoJo did, rather than the guy hitting on her/MoJo.