VC - this type of behaviour is fine if the parties are mutually on the same page. However, if you are dealing with a psychological problem (i.e. a disorder such as the one I believe my H to have - Madonna/Whore complex) it can really backfire on you
If I was to do something like flash my H, he would be totally disgusted by it and it would just push him away all the more.
You have to know what you are dealing with before you take the leap - it might not be as positive as you would like
Heywyre
M - 57 H - 65 1st A-bomb - Nov 27/02 2nd A-bomb - Dec 13/06 together 21 years *************************** Insanity is doing something over and over and expecting different results (Albert Einstein)
Heywire, I totally agree with you, but cj's H seems to enjoy when she initiates the contact, and responds to that. That's why I say these things to her. Because my H may not think also to show that much attention or affection outside of the BR, unless I do something either, so I understand that. That's why some H's respond to blatant advertising, if you know what I mean. I know mine does, even if it's just a smile and a chuckle and he then goes on his way.
Cj already said that her H responds to her when she initiates in the BR, and doesn't take it the "wrong way". And it just seems her H is suffering from a little apathy, not the madonna, whore complex, but who knows, CJ didn't say her H was disgusted by this.
You are right that my H wouldn't be disgusted with my overtures. My problem is that I would like him to do some of the things I do or come up with some of his own.
He seems to be feeling a lot better about us right now. It meant a lot to him to know that I finally see his point of view about some of our problems. Offering me ice cream is evidence of progress.
H got extremely depressed a few weeks ago when I asked him if he decided that making eye contact or physical contact in the bathroom or kitchen and doing nice things wasn't for him. Also, several weeks prior to that, he had done some nice things for me (three days in a row) that were a stretch for him, but there was nothing after that. He had told me many times in the past that I was trying to change his personality, there was something wrong with me, and that I should just accept him as he is. It hurt him that I felt he would never do those nice things again. He got very drunk that night and started crying. The only other time I know that he cried was when his brother almost died. He is not a drinker either. He sometimes has a drink or two in the evening, but he never gets drunk. He was so drunk that night that he was staggering and slurring his words. I didn't realize he had been drinking until after he got back from taking his mom home. I was suprised that he drove in that condition. He normally won't drive if he has even a small drink.
We talked more the next day. I let him know that I do know that he will do nice things sometimes. I asked him if was okay for me to remind him. He said that would be fine. I have reminded him a couple of times, but nothing happened, until my revelation about his point of view. So specific reminders don't do anything for him. I have to wait for him to become flirtatious on his own. The only reminders that seem to do any good are my flirtations and other things that make him feel loved and worthwhile.
So there is a slight chance he wants to be the one to plan something this Saturday. I would like to think that he might like to surprise me with something. But I think that would be too big of a step for him. I think you are right that I should go ahead and ask him whether he wants to plan something, plan it together, or have me plan it.
cj, I think that talk you and your H had sounds so positive. He said he thinks you want to change his personality, and one thing I have realized from a lot of recent reading, men hate to be told their personality, basically who they are, needs to be changed. Maybe the getting drunk that night and crying is showing how extreme his emotions were about the conversation.
I have learned to stop trying to change my H, and accept him, with all his flaws, as he is. I know that he won't usually think to do something nice for me, so the times he does, like the other night when he asked me to come out and sit with him on the patio. It's a small thing, but right now, with all we have been through with his EA, and the fights we used to have over that, I will take it, and be happy when these type of things happen.
One thing I do is to try to stay positive around him, and show my affection to him, and he is responding to it somewhat. He, too, is a somewhat stoic kind of guy, and it takes alot for him to cry or show extreme emotions. In Nov. he and I were talking and he started really crying hard, and saying he wanted us to try and repair our M and that he didn't know what to do. I told him we would work on it together, we would help each other. I think part of him was mourning the EA being ended. The next night, he started crying again, a little less, and my IC told me it was a good sign that he was ready to work on us. I have only seen him cry a few times, and this was heavy crying, so I know the emotions were extreme.
My H told me he doesn't like to be told when to do something nice, he would rather do it on his own, but like you, it may be a long time coming. He recently asked me if I would like to go to a dr.s appt with him, and then he took me out to lunch, and one Sunday after church, he just out of the blue drove to a favorite restaurant of S's and ours. It's little things like that that will give me hope.
You said your H likes things that make him feel loved and worthwhile; have you thought about putting a love letter in his lunch, or in his car, or in his pocket right before he leaves for work?
I should write H a nice love letter. I thought about that after the drunken episode. I decided I should wait until he was over his hurt feelings. A love note then would have been disregarded. Then I forgot about it. I have given him letters before. I meant for them to be suggestive. He told me years later that they offended him. They were too bossy and critical. I did rattle on a lot about what I wished he would do and not do. He would love it if I wrote him a really nice letter. He told me that he likes my apology e-mails. So something endearing would really make him feel good. That won't be an e-mail. It will mean more on paper. I will have to think about where to put it because he makes his own lunch. There's another idea--I should make his lunch. I don't know why I never thought of that before. Duh.
To get back to the lack of sexpertise. I still keep thinking that maybe if sex was more fun, it would give him a reason to look forward to it and maybe want to be a little friskier.
You know that is something my H was really upset about, that I didn't make his lunch on a regular basis, in fact, I hardly ever made it, and sometimes I would tell him to just pick something up somewhere. Now, I am happy to fix his lunch, and although he will still refer to back when I wouldn't make it or when I fussed about it, I know he appreciates it. And it is a healthier lunch for him, and I always put a letter in it, and tell him I appreciate him for different things, even putting gas in my car, or us having a special tv night. And maybe telling him something funny. Although I try to write it when H isn't around, he sometimes has caught me writing the letter, and will joke about it like saying, Dear H, I love you so much, etc..., but I know he is really pleased that I have started giving him the affirmation he deserves. That is why the two books I have, Sacred Marriage, and Sacred Influence are important to me to help me see that these things are so important to men, they want and need to be appreciated. About making sex fun, I have thought about some of the little costumes available. Check out amazon.com and see what they have in apparel.
Another positive sign: H got something out of the freezer last night. His hands were cold and he came up behind me while I was doing the dishes. He put his hands on the back of my neck. I gasped and giggled. He giggled and kissed me. I loved the playfulness. I am optimistic that it will continue. He has been in such a great mood lately.
H was tickled when I offered to make his lunch last night. He asked me what I was going to make him. I asked if he would like the leftover pork chop. He giggled at me and said, "That's not making a lunch. It's already made." I told him I would put more in than that. I also cut it for him because they only have plastic silverware at his office. He's not a big eater, so the only other thing I added was some strawberries.
His lunch box has a mesh pocket on the outside. I put a note in the pocket. It was folded with his name on it. He saw the note when he picked up the lunch box this morning. He asked me if he should read it later or right then. I said that it didn't matter, so he read it right then. It was short and sweet--"You are the best thing that ever happened to me!" He smiled and said, "I love you too. I'm going to tell the people at work that my wife made me a lunch and yours didn't." The last sentence was in a nya nya voice. It was cute.
Isn't it something how they NEED this sort of thing?
My H's coworkers have sometimes commented on his lunch. I don't know if they have ever noticed his notes, though.
It seems to me that by changing your behavior just that little bit, made him do something different. I mean the playing around in the kitchen is just what you wanted and you didn't even have to ask for it. How does all that make you feel? Pretty good, I bet.
However, I should clarify that the cold hands on my neck came before I made his lunch. The thing that has changed his behavior is that I have truly been seeing things from his point of view lately.
I spoke of this in my first post, but maybe I should go into more detail:
Two or three weeks ago, H decided that we needed to replace the carpet in our basement. The carpet we needed to replace was brand new when our sewer backed up and soaked a fairly large area of the carpet. We also have a pool table. We pulled the carpet up around the edges and tried to dry it out real well. We were hoping we wouldn't have to replace a brand new carpet or move the pool table. That was five years ago. The cat also had a bladder infection and peed around the edges that hadn't even had sewage on them. We have all started to have bronchial trouble, so it was time to get rid of the stench. H decided he wanted to replace the old carpet with carpet squares. Then we wouldn't have to move the pool table. H was unsure whether to use two colors so we would have a sort of pattern. He didn't know if the pattern would carry through to the hall and other areas without looking odd. I got out a piece of graph paper and drew in the dimensions of our basement and worked out a way that the pattern would work. H agreed with me at the time. I found out later that he felt I had taken over, so he agreed because he was afraid I would be mad if he disagreed with me. I went to the store the next day and ordered the tiles. They were expensive. I thought about calling H to make sure he was okay with the price. I made the mistake of assuming that he just wanted to be rid of that old carpet and the price wasn't a big deal. A couple days later (after cleaning the cement real well and letting it air out) I put a sampling of several tiles down. Then he asked me about the price. I hadn't told him prior to that because I thought that he wasn't asking because he didn't want to know. When he asked, I thought, "Great now he's going to freak," and that is what I said to him before pausing and telling him the price. Naturally, he was angry. We talked about it later and I apologized. I also tend to get in a hurry when working on a project. I told him that I should have taken more time and checked with him more. It especially bothered him that I knew he would freak about the price, but bought the tiles anyway. He felt better after I explained my reasons for not telling him. The next night, I was going to start sticking the tiles down. He suggested that I vacuum the concrete first. I asked if using a sponge would be better. He insisted that vacuuming would be better. I didn't feel that he considered my idea in the least, so I insisted. He started to walk away saying, "Do what you want." I didn't want him to be mad, so I did it his way. It wasn't until the next morning that it dawned on me why he feels that I always want to have my way. To me, it was just that I didn't feel heard. I sent him an e-mail telling him that I could see his point of view. His behavior has been much better since then. He listens to me and responds so I know I was heard. He is a happy man now and seems to want to make me happy, too. Making his lunch and giving him notes is keeping the ball rolling.
