Honestly I am getting lost in all of this conversation.
My original point was that Chrome is probably not going to get the intimacy he craves until the effects of the betrayals are addressed. I very much believe that Mrs. Chrome has issues she needs to address, but that until her pain has healed some, any pressure that Chrome puts on her to change will not be well received and in fact will probably work against him.
Heather, your 'taking one drink' analogy doesn't work. It's legal. If you are over 21. If you are under 21, you still have an ethical issue at play... we all break that rule (well... a lot of us did)... does it make it right because so many break it? No.
I didn't mean to address the ethical side of it...I was only saying that doing something once or within moderation doesn't automatically point to a problem, i.e. escapism.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
Here is a link to an article regarding EA/PA in good marriages via the "new infidelity".
Also, this is discussed at length in "NOT Just Friends" by Shirley Glass.
If you haven't read the book I highly recommend it.
-NOPkins
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
I didn't mean to address the ethical side of it...I was only saying that doing something once or within moderation doesn't automatically point to a problem, i.e. escapism.
No. Could just be curiosity. Depends on what the 'doing something once,' thing is. But that's kind of getting to my point.
Heather wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- My original point was that Chrome is probably not going to get the intimacy he craves until the effects of the betrayals are addressed. I very much believe that Mrs. Chrome has issues she needs to address, but that until her pain has healed some, any pressure that Chrome puts on her to change will not be well received and in fact will probably work against him. -------------------------------------------------------
Exactly.
-NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
I agree with you. I was zooming down the road a bit, to discuss next steps after dealing with pain... in order to give Chrome some hope. And then I got side tracked with my philosophizing...
Lots has been said and speculated about and I really want to clear some things up. First off, Chrome and I are/were clearly in a very difficult emotional place in our M's. When we met on here, my H and I were still S and Chrome was dealing with OW. We both truly wanted to have our M's fixed but the emotional connection started to spiral out of control. (At least on my end, I cannot speak for Chrome). Some people have mentioned spouse bashing. I can honestly say I don't think we ever talked badly about our spouses or even discussed our M much at all. The thing that started this all off was our similar interest in music. Most of our email convos were about that, or teaching, or other typical "friend" stuff. The real problem was not necessarily the friendship, but that we both kept it secret. I will always regret that because I lost a great friend and couldn't maintain boundaries. I take more responsibility for this than Chrome. I really messed up and still struggle with everything that happened. And now for some painful honesty, I am writing this here in this open forum because I am scared if I don't, I will be tempted to communicate with Chrome thru emails, yet again, even at the risk of F*cking things up even more. I'm sure you are all saying "boo hoo for you" but that is ok. I can take it and deserve it. But there are REAL people that all of you are talking about and not just some people to be dissected and analyzed and judged. I can handle all of the above, but just want to make it clear that it still hurts like hell and often times, all my CBT work just flies out the window. It is a constant struggle between my emotions, my thoughts, my integrity (which needs major work), and just fighting plain old boredom. Sad but true. But if we are all honest with ourselves, all of us are probably on this board in one way or another to meet some unmet needs...validation, escape, many issues that have been mentioned. Ok, I've purged enough I think. Hope you are all well.
My original point was that Chrome is probably not going to get the intimacy he craves until the effects of the betrayals are addressed. I very much believe that Mrs. Chrome has issues she needs to address, but that until her pain has healed some, any pressure that Chrome puts on her to change will not be well received and in fact will probably work against him.
I also agree that Chrome needs to be radically honest with his wife about his feelings and commitment to her. I think he needs to press her to do the same because IMO, she is being extremely dishonest with her feelings and emotions. I think the greater deception is now with her, though at one time it was with him. He has grown, she has not.
That said, I do not think Chrome should dump a second EA on his wife. I see nothing to gain from it and everything to lose. From what I understand, such a confession is to help a person clear his/her guilt to come across as being more honest and committed to the partner. I do not think that has been an issue with Chrome. His EA was a passive aggressive act to seek attention. He as his W are bogged down in a game of who can be the biggest martyr. All he did was up the ante. I do not think that means he has an addictive type personality for affairs, like an addictive gamble or an alcoholic. He might, but I don’t see it.
So exactly how will telling his W about an “EA” with LFL make him more committed to his marriage? That is the question. I know one thing for sure. His W is cloaked in denial about the control she is under from her parents. She has had to be the “good” kids, toe the line, not do anything to shame the family, live to please others, and so she has had the life sucked out of her. This is atypical of people who say they don’t know how to have fun. The really don’t. They only know how to have fun in the shadow of someone else’s fun. So they are extremely dependent and enmeshed with others. Their whole life revolves around they partner or their parents doing the right thing. It is all shame-based driven.
If that significant person lets them down, as Chrome has, their world comes crashing in. They have a huge sense of responsibility and commitment to pleasing others and cannot understand how another could betray them, just as they cannot think about betraying someone else. The injustice of a betrayal can make their blood boil. But they (or their FOO) are as responsible for perpetuating this warped reality as the person who perpetrates the betrayal.
But they don’t see it that way. A confession by Chrome of this “EA” will set his marriage back a good year, IMO. It may irreparably damage it. MrsChrome does not have it in her right now to accept blame for her own role in this mess. So she will project anger toward Chrome for yet another betrayal of her idea of loyalty. He cannot win. The situation is made even worse by the fact that they live across the street from her parents. The best thing Chrome could do, IMO, is to either move away and limit the meddling of his in-laws or insist his W get a job so she can gain a sense of herself and not be so dependent on the kids for her emotional connection.
The children will suffer more and more because MrsChrome uses them as a surrogate partner. She believes she is doing what is best for her kids, giving them better care and support than any other mother, but martyrs always gives this “love” with strings attached. It is not healthy for the kids, or the marriage.
I also think Chrome needs to address the EA type of detachment he feels from his wife when she bonds with the kids and her parents to his exclusion. Kicking him to the role of little more than a paycheck will not help the marriage. It is easy to feel sorry for her, but the repair of the marriage has got to be fair and balanced or more resentment will build. When a woman cuts off her husband, there will be consequences. Chrome chose an EA. There are plenty of other choices he could have made that would have been just as painful to his W. Would it make everyone feel better if Chrome decided to become an alcoholic, or an addictive gambler, or to simply D and move on? IMO, it doesn’t matter what his method was. It only matters that he felt he had to resort to some type of method to get her attention. She had a role to play in the development of this mess.
Sorry folks, I do not see how it will help his situation at all for Chrome to confess to another “EA.” I for one would like to know exactly what went on in this so called “EA” with LFL before I could even think about advising whether Chrome should talk to his W about it. I would challenge the damage that EA had to the damage Chrome’s W has wrought with her own version of an EA.
I think this board fails to see the bigger picture at times and gets too caught up in personal projection. Too many here have lived through an affair and it clouds their ability to see what is best for the marriage. As adults in a relationship, there are no true martyrs or victims (except for the obvious like rape) There can be no leveling of the score where one person has to “pay” more than the other, if the marriage is to move forward. Who is to say when one person has “paid” enough? Who is to judge that? Confession might help at times, at others it won’t.
To stress that a person should “confess” is to say that a person should “pay” and be punished. The excuse that confession puts a person on an honest level and somehow clears the decks and indicates true commitment is simply not true. And narcissist will honestly confess over and over. It means nothing. Chrome has to decide if confession will somehow make him truly understand honesty and commitment to his wife or not. If he already has that in him, then all I can see him gaining is experiencing more pain for not being the assertive man he knows he should be. I don’t see how that is going to help someone who already suffers from self esteem and depression problems. I think the advice of his C was correct, for his sitch. IMO, the focus should be on saving the marriage, not exacting some form of retribution.
Just saw LFL’s post….. Assuming she has not omitted any significant details like asking each other what type of underwear they wear or don’t wear, then what was so wrong about this “EA” except for the fact that it was secret? Do you really think MrsChrome tells Chrome what her girlfriends say? And don’t give me a bunch of BS that it is different because she speaks to women, not men. The effect on the marriage is the same. What about the conversations on this board? How many divulge their inner most feelings here but do not share them with their spouse? Is that not an EA? Can that not create harm to the marriage? I challenge everyone here to tell their spouse everything they have posted on this board, to speak freely about their wants, their faults, their weakness, their FOO. Can you do it? Yes? No? If not, aren’t you harming your M? Don’t tell me that because there are no romantic discussions between members here that your spouse will not be hurt. Go tell your spouse that you discuss in detail things about your M, about him/her. Then ask if that hurts his/her feelings, and that you have kept it secret for however long. How does that differ from Chrome and LFL?
FWIW, I want you to know that in bringing up the 2nd EA I wasn't trying to judge you...in fact I was trying to leave your name out of it. BUT, Chrome is just as culpible for the "friendship" spiraling out of control emotionally as you are. Why? Because Chrome knows himself well enough to know he cannot have a close friendship with a woman without becoming attached to her emotionally. He knew better than to do what he was doing at the time he was doing it. He knew, just as you did, that if he had to hide the friendship...there was already something wrong with what he was doing. Neither of you were going to be able to get to the place in your marriage with this emotional connection between the two of you....simply wasn't going to happen.
My point in even bringing it up was to say that Chrome needs to be completely honest with his wife and come clean if he has any hopes to gain her real trust....for her to trust him enough to become vulnerable enough to reach that state of intimacy he craves. Personally I believe he needs to do this in a therapists office with her too...so they can both receive immediate help working through these things.
"So exactly how will telling his W about an “EA” with LFL make him more committed to his marriage?"
Telling his wife is about building trust. Seriously. There cannot be major secrets like this between them if he expects to build intimacy with her.
Go check out that website I mentioned...survivinginfidelity.com Read the different forums, there are separate ones for betrayed spouses and for wandering spouses. Maybe that will help you understand how important this is to someone who has already endured one betrayal....or any. Of course there are some folks who prefer not to know (but really, they are a minority). The decision not to tell a spouse about something like an EA or PA...is a selfish one on behalf of the wandering spouse in the fact that it completely takes the betrayed spouse out of the equation as far as choices and decisions go. The fact is Chrome's wife has a right to make informed decisions about her life and her marriage...in not telling her, he takes away that right and knowingly continues to keep this secret from her...which is in its own way, continuing the betrayal.
That's the last I'm going to say on this, but I encourage you to visit that website. There are currently over 14,000 members on there with new people showing up EVERY day....and it does a wonderful job of giving the perspective from both sides.
Sweety, this is exactly what I was talking about. Don't beat yourself up too badly. You are human.
Talking in general now:
For my own part, I have come to realize that integrity is something you are not born with, but that you learn. We have ALL been in some very dicey situation, whether of our own making or not.
Sometimes we even KNOW better and still screw up.
This stuff is HARD. Really, really HARD. I read the article that NOP posted about the new infidelity... and while I agree with the recommendations... those recommendations are, in fact, THE PROBLEM. It's easy to say, "well, just be honest with your spouse." Throw in some dysfunction, some lovely FOO issues, a few bad mistakes you probably don't want to own up to (especially if no one knows and you don't HAVE to)... and now all of a sudden, you're miles away from being honest... not only with yourself, but even your spouse.
Ask Mrs. Cac how hard self-honesty can be. Ask Mrs. NOP how devastating it is to your psyche when you realize how your own actions have hurt another... that you claim to love. Jesus Christ that hurts.
For some people, pain goes so deeply, they can NEVER face it.
Infidelity is discussed here sometimes like a regular ole' witch hunt. I'm not excusing it, I'm not advocating it, I'm not saying it doesn't HURT. It is devastating. BTDT.
But I have found that the only way through it... once the pain begins to fade, is the willingness for some serious self-examination, self-honesty, a bit of self-kindness... and gradual change over time... (LOL - I'm the one to talk, Ms. Thing with NO PATIENCE).
The reason I brought up the 'posting from work example,' is... we LIE to ourselves every day. That doesn't make us bad people, it doesn't mean we rank right up there with ax murderers and rapists. It means we are all human, and if we can't get 'real' with ourselves first... how in the heck are we supposed to do that with a partner?
Peron X's offense may be worse than person Y's offense... (and who gets to decide that, btw, when hurt is hurt... who measures who is hurting more?) but we ALL offend. We are ALL guilty of it. I think the person who has the greatest chance of recovery is the person willing to look at themselves and see what part THEY are playing. That's a real tough thing to do when you are hurting, or lonely, or angry, or whatever. The very worst thing you can do, in my opinion, is pull the PIOUS card... even if you have never committed a sin yourself. That's pretty flippin' hard NOT to do when you are hurting.
LFL, Chrome -- from a person who has hurt others and who has been hurt by others plenty, whether by my own making or not... I feel your pain. I'm rooting for both of you to find your peace and your healing.
I'm sure you are all saying "boo hoo for you" but that is ok. I can take it and deserve it. But there are REAL people that all of you are talking about and not just some people to be dissected and analyzed and judged. I can handle all of the above, but just want to make it clear that it still hurts like hell and often times, all my CBT work just flies out the window. It is a constant struggle between my emotions, my thoughts, my integrity (which needs major work), and just fighting plain old boredom. Sad but true. But if we are all honest with ourselves, all of us are probably on this board in one way or another to meet some unmet needs...validation, escape, many issues that have been mentioned.