Breakthrough ... and stuck

[Corri]

To me, it is very much a related analogy. What keeps you in line in life? The rules... the vows... or your own integrity?

Because of the violation of trust with an employer may not be on a romantic level... it is still a violation of trust. Who gets to decide which violation is worse?

So many people who become involved in EA's spend their time fantasizing about that other person...

I've had a LOT of fantasies during the day... while I was married, and while I have not been married (some about a good looking guy... some about what I'd do with the million dollars I could win in the lottery). Most men spend a GREAT DEAL of time, each day, fantasizing... and it could very well BE over the woman who happened to bend over in front of him to pick up her purse.

What I am talking about here is self-delusion and honesty. Most people here don't even think about the time taken at work to post here on the board because they just haven't been caught. No one has made it an issue. Therefore... why worry about it. (Not for you, but I bet it's different for various folks).

Often times, this is the same mind frame of a person having an affair. It's okay, as long as they are getting away with it. It can be rationalized away on all kinds of levels, and it all starts with the person and their need to escape.

Escape what or whom is something else... but I think you get where I am going with this.

I'm glad you've thought through these things, GEL, and your boundaries are firmly in place. Throughout my life... I have hurt, and I have been hurt. I've made some pretty piss poor decisions, and I've deluded myself on more than one occassion. My boundaries have been pretty crappy as well.

But in all of it, no matter what my life circumstances, no matter what rules or vows spoken, it all will always come down to MY OWN INTEGRITY and being able to be honest with myself... to either correct my course... or not. Those rules and those vows don't mean CRAP if **I** don't have the integrity to face it when I am deluding myself into thinking that whatever I am doing is okay, simply because I haven't gotten caught... no one knows.

So my point is... we've all done stuff. It goes a long way in feeding that compassion and empathy so desperately needed during the healing process.... or assisting you in drawing the line with another -- your behavior is not acceptable to me -- out of respect for self. It doesn't really have anything to do with rules or vows.

Corri

[Corri]

Heather:

For me, it was ENTIRELY about validation and zero about escape or a willingness to be honest either actually.

Well... let me prod and see if it holds true for you.

Okay... you weren't getting validation at home from your H. That made you unhappy... a need you had was not being filled... and you thought that should be done by him (validating you... making you feel happy). So in order to escapse the unhappiness you were feeling inside and at home... you found validation from someone else.

A kind of... what comes first... the need to escape or the need to be validated? (Avoid pain, persue pleasure).

Now... please understand I'm just chewing the fat here, y'all.

Corri

[Cobra]

GEL,

I understand that an EA can be devastating because of the emotions involved. But compared to the damage done from family, I think it pales in comparison. It is easy to get hurt over an EA. Chrome’s W can put her finger on a name, a time and a place. It is identifiable and she can focus on a perpetrator. She can visualize events. Sure there is an intimate bond that was broken, a violation of trust that hurts a lot. I was cheated on years ago in college. It hurt like hell.

But looking back, the pain I suffered was nothing compared to the more insidious, unidentifiable pain I suffered from my parents and the consequence to my M. Continued damage from dysfunctional but caring relatives is the very same influence that helped to shape a person into who they are today. How can it be that more of the same is damaging? But it can be. And it is so hard to see. That is why it is even more dangerous to a marriage, IMO. There is way too much denial involved in identifying the continuing enabling that comes from enmeshment with family. There are not the same romantic interests that create the jealousy and hurt the other spouse feels in an EA, but the effects on the M are what is important.

The damage from a meddling, dysfunctional parent or friend seems so much like care and empathy. To most of us, it can be hard to blame the family for lending support to our spouse. Chrome has a hard time blaming his in-laws for supporting his W. But the problems his W brings to the M came from those same people. Those problems run deeper than anything he created with an EA. He may have caused his W to feel more pain, but her parents did more to destroy the marriage than he ever did, just as his parents had the same impact on ensuring he would not have a healthy marriage either. No EA can bring about that much damage.

The EA only exposes the problem. It is not the problem itself.

[heatherg]

Corri, I believe that there are stated expectations in M and then there are implied expectations in M. I don't recall specifically stating in my M vows that I would never be fired, but I do recall stating that I would foresake all others. Things come up during M, as partners we need to deal with and let our expectations be known, negotiate and re-negotiate. While losing a job once, particularly when one is fired due to their own disregard of company policy, can be devastating I don't think it shakes a M to the core quite the way breaking the stated expectations in M vows does.

[heatherg]

If I drink one drink it doesn't make me an alcoholic. If I allow my curiousity about what else is out there get the better of me, it doesn't necessarily make me an escapist. I was looking for someone to tell me that my H was an alcoholic, that I wasn't crazy and that I was worth being treated differently. If this went on and on, I can see where it would become an escape. But it didn't go on and on, we're talking maybe three months before I told my H what was going on. The EA and the PA happened within the same 3 months. I was obviously hitting bottom with what I could tolerate in my M and I was looking for someone to tell me that it was ok, that my feelings were justified.

[fearless]

It is easy to get hurt over an EA.

That's not a very empathetic response and not very helpful. In fact it is pretty much the same as a someone telling you to just get over the fact you are in a SSM. Just because sex is not important to them is no excuse for judging your need.

Those problems run deeper than anything he created with an EA.

I would challenge this. If anything, Chrome's reaction by having an affair shows his issues of not being able to deal with things in his marriage in a straight forward open way. That IS Chrome's FOO issue and is definitely something HE needs to understand and get under control.

Plus his affair only complicated and confused their marital issues. How in the world did that not create a deeper problem?

Also I would say that the EA is the problem IF, as I suspect, the EA took place as a way for Chrome to get the validation he should be learning to get from himself.

[Cobra]

Fearless,

That's not a very empathetic response and not very helpful.

I am just stating what I see as a fact. Not directed toward anyone. So what does empathy have to do with anything and why is it or is it not helpful? Emotions seem to run deep over this issue….. maybe that says something…

Also I would say that the EA is the problem IF, as I suspect, the EA took place as a way for Chrome to get the validation he should be learning to get from himself.

I think Chrome has stated this many times.

Plus his affair only complicated and confused their marital issues. How in the world did that not create a deeper problem?

It created problems for sure, but had it not been for the deeper FOO issues, the EA would likely not have occurred. The reverse cannot be said, or at least is not very likely. I find it hard to believe that two people with a stable functional marriage, with a healthy understanding and respect for boundaries, will be susceptible to an EA. It just can’t happen. If it does, then those boundaries do not exist to begin with.

[fearless]

Corri,

I understand some of what you are saying about escape versus validation and that may be true for some. In my XH's case he did get validation from me and has directly said that. He said his problem was that he has self-esteem problems which led him to need more and more validation from others. Chrome's description of himself as someone that has self validation and self -esteem problems is what makes me wonder if his affair was more about seeking validation.

Chrome needs to understand the complications that the affairs have caused. To be clear, Mrs Chrome getting over the affairs is one step. The problem is that Chrome has also been pushing her for more intimacy and affection at the same time she is working through the affair. So at the same time she is trying to deal with the lasting affects from the affairs he is also "pushing" her to "change." How in the world would she not put 2 and 2 together - that Chrome is looking for her to change to make him happy?

Affairs are not necessarily about getting something from an OW or OM that you cannot get from your spouse. They can also be about getting something that you cannot get from yourself. My XH swears that there was NOTHING I could have been or done to stop his EAs and PA because there were not because of ME. There happened because he NEEDED validation from someone else. I gave him validation but he needed MORE because he did not have it from within.

This is why I am so adamant that Chrome needs to be able to validate himself first or else he is just using his wife (or EA partner or future relationship) as a crutch for his self-esteem. That is NOT a permanent or healthy state of being. If you have to rely on someone else that is a lot of pressure on them. What if they have a bad or busy day and are not "there" for you?

I also do not believe that it is his job to validate his wife and prop up her self-esteem. I do think that within a marriage/relationship there does need to be mutual respect and admiration but that is for the RELATIONSHIP and not to "make" the other feel like they are okay. I still struggle with how to get this across to Chrome.

An example is that if someone does not feel good about themselves - their looks, etc. - and then meet someone who "makes" them feel good, then they assume that they are in love. So what happens when their partner does not make them feel good, does that mean they are no longer in love? What if they meet someone else that "makes" them feel good, are they in love with the new person? My point is that I cannot and do not expect my partner to always be there to "make" me feel good. In my personal example, I have days where I feel "fat and ugly" (not a big deal just the normal self doubts). If Raven says I look beautiful on those days, I appreciate it but it does not "fix" everything. And vice versa, if I feel like I look great and Raven does not comment on how I look, I still feel good about myself. Maybe he is just distracted by his kids, issues with XW, forgets to say out loud what he is thinking , or whatever. The point is I know how I feel about myself regardless of what Ravens says or does. Now as far as the relationship of course I want and need to hear compliments from him (and him from me).

None of this is at all about blaming or judging Chrome. I admire him for facing all of these issues. I just would like to encourage him to break things down into manageable issues. Again I do not see much need for him to do anything more about the EAs other than to tell his wife he was wrong, he regrets what it did to her and the marriage and he will not do it again.

[fearless]

Honestly I am getting lost in all of this conversation. Are we trying to say that the EA was not a big deal or was not damaging to the marriage? Or are we saying that Chrome's FOO issues are bigger than the EA? I absolutely agree that Chrome's FOO issues are the cause behind his seeking validation with his EA. If he deals with his FOO issues then I think he will be less susceptible to an EA.

So I do agree with you that a person who is self validating and understands boundaries is less susceptible to an EA. In my opinion whether the marriage is "good" or not is less important than the a person's own self-esteem. There are plenty of people with "good" marriages that have affairs while there are others with not-so-good marriages that do not have affairs.

Anyway... my point is to stress that giving Mrs Chrome some empathy given that the EA appears to have created doubt in her mind of how Chrome feels about her. In turn that doubt has added more issues to an already complicated marriage.

[Corri]

Fearless/Heather:

I don't see where anything you just said is much different than the point I made.

I am NOT minimizing EAs, PAs nor the pain they cause. I am talking about avoiding pain, pursuing pleasure... and integrity <-- That stuff doesn't come from RULES. It doesn't come from VOWS. If it did, NO ONE who is married would ever stray.

It is built into the fabric of our beings to avoid pain and pursue pleasure. (escape/validate). Integrity is the apex.

It's learned. And it's painful sometimes. We all have to learn it and it SUCKS (well, we don't have to, but I think most aspire to it, anyway). Integrity is the corner stone of boundaries... and if you don't have IT, you can't hang on to your boundaries.

We all break the integrity rule, to others... but most especially to ourselves. And though I see Chrome as having violated his integrity, and the integrity of his marriage... MRS. CHROME is doing the same darn thing, in her own way, and until SHE can see that, and until Chrome can get HIS integrity under control, it isn't helping either one of them to throw stones at one another.

I am NOT defending Chrome's actions, nor am I saying that anyone is ganging up on him, or whatever. I am NOT saying that Mrs. Chrome isn't hurting, nor that she doesn't have a right to hurt. She does. Of course she does.

I personally believe that the way she will find her way past her resentment, MAYBE (if Chrome keeps his nose clean)... and MAYBE learns to trust again... is to LOOK AT HERSELF and see what her own actions MIGHT have contributed to it (who knows... maybe she is a victim, I don't know. I don't know her). That doesn't take away the hurt. Hopefully... though, it would help the hurt to heal.

Okay, climbing off my phiolosophical soap box, I shall leave with one last thing: Heather, your 'taking one drink' analogy doesn't work. It's legal. If you are over 21. If you are under 21, you still have an ethical issue at play... we all break that rule (well... a lot of us did)... does it make it right because so many break it? No.

Corri