New Thread for 2940!!!!!

[Walking]

Tam - your post has been bothering me all afternoon and I think I just figured out why. OK - there are 2 parts to reconciling with your H.

1. Getting to the place where he wants to be married to you again (that means being in an exlusive relationship with you)

2. Rebuilding your marriage

This post demonstrates that you are skipping to number 2 before you get through number 1.

You said

I

told him it was hard for me to tell him all of this, because I enjoyed it when he came home and was scared that he would think he couldn't come home anymore but that I just needed to let him know how I felt.

You are in a negotation now Tam. You know that when you are in a negotiation you don't put all your cards on the table.

Your job in this period is to make you and home look like an attractive option to him. Talking and talking and talking about your insecurities, your pain, your confusion etc etc is not going to cut it.

It doesn't matter if he's your husband and it's your 'right' - he's absent from the marriage right now and he may or may not sign back into it. He's only going to sign back into it if it looks like it's going to be a comfortable place to be.

He gave you a huge clue

So I asked him if he could tell me what *I* could be working on. He said he didn't like what we were doing now (meaning having that conversation).

What you are going through at the moment means nothing to him Tam. He is in his own personal nightmare and he's made a decision to go outside of the marriage to seek some solace. He is playing you. It's as simple, or as complicated as that.

When I've managed to stay strong and avoid any "conflicts" with him for a while and created distance is when he's come in closer to me.

Yes

At the same time, there is absolutely no way that I can be in a R in which I cannot talk to my H about personal matters.

You won't have the option to negotiate that in your relationship unless you do the work staying away from it now. He won't come back and you won't have him to talk to then anyway.

I guess the point is, don't confuse the 2 stages.

Right now concentrate on doing what you need to do to heal yourself and be ready if and when he decides to come home.

After that happens - then you can have the talks and reestablish the boundaries in your relationship that are comfortable for both of you.

Remember the golden rule. No R talks. This is a negotiation and you need to keep your cards close to your chest.

[PennyMB]

Virginia,
Sorry 2940 but I need to Hijack for a minute and ask virginia if she could go to my thread and give some advice. Its help yoyo husband is killing me. He is really playing me and I could really use some advice. Thanks

[HeartScared]

Hello 2940,

I see things are taking a turn. I found out my H is indeed having an EA. He is confused, as am I. I posted it under "Revelation: EA." (if anyone cares to give me some guidance.)

I do not know what to think or feel at this point. I believe he is being honest with me. He seems a bit relieved as well. SO I am hoping he is seeing me more and more as someone he can turn to and hopefully turn away from her. There were issues before this but we did not talk about them. I hope that now we can work through our issues. We both recognize that she is not tha cuse, but more of a bandaid. I just hope these feelings fade before anything else happens.

2490,

Please heed everyone's advice. It is important NOT to make the same mistakes. I see as you H comes closer you are slipping into the same behaviors. Be careful. Remeber how far you have grown and remember there is still a lot left to do.

HS

[2940831]

Hey, everyone --

Thanks for the great advice and insights. Virginia, I completely understand what you are saying about not putting the cart before the horse. I know I need to stop any talk about R/M, but at the same time I knew I couldn't live with myself if I didn't get the whole outbreak thing off my chest. In addition, I was feeling bad about him coming over to the house, having unprotected sex, etc. I thought more about waiting to approach that until he comes home again and was worried that that might be an awkward situation to be in and thought it might be easier for me if I talked to him about it when he wasn't home, if that makes sense.

I also know that my feelings are wrong to want him to come home right now. Believe me, I do completely get that I should not feel that way. And I know I shouldn't have told him that I do feel that way. I'm just being honest with you guys, as always, and I'm scared and I do enjoy any ounce of affection he's willing to throw my way. When you feel "rejected" by someone, as I do, it's hard to not feel anything when they do show you affection, whether that's the "right" way to feel or not.

I know we need to wait to work on the whole communication thing until he has agreed to recommit to our M and has shown he is willing to do that by coming home and leaving behind OW.

So I talked to my counselor today. Regarding what 1210 said about the neurosis, counselor said that everyone has a form of neurosis and that that is kind of what she is talking about as far as the "desperate, needy little girl" idea that I already told you about. She said she felt like 1210 was blaming me for everything that is happening in our M/R and not giving the appropriate blame to H for having an A. I told her that I felt that that was most likely because the goal of DBing is that we can only change ourselves and that hopefully that will bring about changes in those around us and that 1210 is only giving me advice on what *I* can do to help make things better. She reiterated the fact that it's important, though, that I do remember that there is no excuse for H having made the choice to have an A, that there were lots of other choices he could have made and didn't and that I can't blame myself for his poor choice in that regard. And I do understand and believe that. It doesn't mean it's not hard to deal with still, but I do understand that.

So I didn't really get an "yes, that is exactly what this is" type of response from her as far as the neurosis. I'm not sure what to think of that... We did talk about separating from our parents and building our own lives as adults and the fact that we do have a dysfunction in my family of having excluded a sibling that I haven't talked to for probably 17 years now. She thought that may be part of where my fear of being alone might stem from.

Well, I've gotta run to a meeting but have lots more to tell you. Will check back in later.

[HeartScared]

The excluded sibling is a HUGE factor in my opinion. Just seeing how my H handles all the things he saw hiw siblings go through and the weight he has on his shoulders because of it. An excluded sibling has to weigh a ton and have a significant impact on you as an adult.

HS

[imLIN]

I asked him if it was because of me or because of him that he wasn't ready. He said both of us. So I asked him if he could tell me what *I* could be working on. He said he didn't like what we were doing now (meaning having that conversation). I've obviously known this all along

Yet you STILL continue to rope him into these conversations even though he tells you that is what he doesn't like....do you get what he is telling you???...he isn't going to make the 'move' until you can prove to him that your OK...

I told him that it was giving me mixed messages (like what Jody said to tell him) and that it was both confusing and hard on me, that I loved it when he came home and spent time with me and that I have really enjoyed making love to him but at the same time that I just didn't understand what he was doing and why, etc., and that it is hard on me. I told him that I felt like I wasn't respecting myself. (That was hard to say...)

He knows what messages he is sending...he also knows you don't have enough respect for yourself to tell him NO...so why should he respect you if you don't even respect yourself???...Until you do...or at least stand up for yourself...expect more of the same...

I should have the right to be able to spend time with him and ML to him. At the same time, it's just not fair to anyone for him to be playing both sides of the fence. Anyway, I've now expressed my concerns with this, so we'll see what happens from here. As I said, I just have to pray that he will respect me for it.

Yes you should be able to do those things with your H but...neither of you are in that place yet for it to be healthy...no it's not fair for him to be playing both sides but as long as both sides allow it...hey, why not???....and again, until you have respect for yourself don't expect it from him....

I said that things could obviously go either way (meaning from me to him to her/ from her to him to me, etc.) and that having unprotected sex might not be the best idea. I asked him what he thought about that, and he said he hadn't really thought about that and would have to give it some thought...

MIGHT NOT BE the best idea???...You have got to be kidding me...it absolutely ISN'T THE BEST idea...and then instead of saying something like...I don't want to do that anymore because after considering all of this I have more respect for myself then that you ASK HIM what he thinks???...lol, he is thinking he gets to sleep with two women who have no self respect but make him feel good!

And just so you know....asking him open ended questions...is still questioning him....it is okay to state what you think and then say something like....I would be interested in your take if you care to share...and leave it at that....but you really do go to far into a conversation with him...

I am concerned for where you are now...you are allowing him to come home and have sex with you (to him it is sex and that is why he can go back to the OW and have sex with her too...assuming that is what he is doing)....you are involving yourself way to much emotionally....you are clinging, needy, and still looking for reassurances from him even though this is really NOT the time...

YOU NEED TIME...bottom line...if he said he was coming home tomorrow you would fall all overself to open the door...and in a few weeks or months...you will be back here wondering what the heck went wrong...

I do agree that your H had other choices besides the A...however you DID contribute to the unhappiness in the M...if it hadn't been an A it would have been something else...and I am not so sure he would have gotten your attention...and maybe he knows that too???....Why do I say this???...because my H pretty much told me that he had the A because he knew nothing else would have changed things...so why not???...of course he had no intention of working things out down the road because he thought I was incapable of change...well...I showed him and myself...

In the process I did keep my self respect...I made sure and protected myself physically when he came home...I made sure he followed through on getting an STD panel before I let my guard down...

I am suprised with all the commercials on TV about herpes and how you can pass it on even when you don't have an outbreak that you wouldn't have known this...are you on any type of prescription therapy???...do you know they have prescription therapies available for persons like you and H???...you need to do some more homework on that as well...

I keep hoping that something will click with you but I have to agree with 25yrsMLC...you keep repeating, repeating, repeating...so why expect anything different???

[2940831]

Hi again --

Thanks for your continued comments and support.

Lin, I agree with a lot of what you said, but I have to say that one of the things I don't think you guys are seeing is that I have made some HUGE changes from where I was at both before this whole thing blew up, right when it blew up, up until now. I caught myself this morning beating myself up for repeating, as you say, some of the same things that I know are wrong. But, then I thought to myself, "you know what? I HAVE grown a lot as a person already from this and learned a lot, and I HAVE made some really hard changes for ME to make." Everyone's journey here is different; everyone has different strengths and weaknesses. I am open to and extremely grateful for all of the wisdom and advice you all pass on to me, and I honestly want you to keep it coming. At the same time, none of you are ME. I may have some completely different things to go through in my journey than you did, and I may do some things BETTER than some of you did. I guess what I'm trying to say is to please not judge me based on how YOU would do things. I may not be as strong as a lot of you and may have more challenges in particular areas than you did, etc. BUT I AM TRYING! Why do you think I keep posting here and asking for you guys' help and telling you just about every single move I make, including most all of my screw-ups? Do I enjoy getting hit with 2X4's? Not so much. Why would I tell you guys all of the ways that I mess up other than to continue to push myself to do better and to learn from this? I spend so much time every single day writing these long posts to you all both asking for advice and encouragement and telling you ways I've messed up and also the successes I've had. AND I AM SO VERY GRATEFUL that you guys take so much time to always be there for me and respond and continue to push me. My point is that it's not particularly fun to get tough love, and if I didn't want to keep fighting for this, I certainly wouldn't be continuing to come back here and tell you all of my mistakes when I know I'm going to get beat up for it. Your tough love keeps me fighting, and I appreciate that so much.

At the same time, I have made a lot of changes that have been very challenging for ME personally. Would they have been challenging for you guys? Maybe not. But I'm asking you to not judge me based on YOUR strengths. While I have made some real progress in my actions and things I have done, it's ironic that it's rare to hear praises from you for what I HAVE DONE RIGHT! For instance, rather than at least telling me that it was good that I worked towards putting up some boundaries for H regarding the unprotected sex and coming home, etc., WHICH WAS VERY HARD FOR ME PERSONALLY TO DO, I get torn apart for not saying it the right way or even bringing it up at all! And for me to go days without contacting H except for maybe an e-mail or a voicemail message absolutely kills me - but instead of giving me some encouragement for what I HAVE done, I get ripped apart for not doing it long enough or for having a backslide and falling into an old pattern...

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I respect you all so much, but it's hard to have you mostly point out all of the negatives in what I've done wrong and not see the positives in what I've done, too. It's nice to be encouraged for the GOOD things once in a while as well. And, not being in my shoes, you can never know how hard some of the things I HAVE done well have been for me, just as I will never be able to know how hard some of the things you all personally experienced in your own situations were for you. As I said, there very well may be things that I have done very well that some of you might have had a real hard time with. If we were all the same and were able to deal with things perfectly and had all of the same strengths and all respected ourselves perfectly, etc., etc., this would be a pretty boring and uneventful world I guess, wouldn't it?

And it has gone widely unspoken that H also has some changes to make in our R and has made some very big mistakes. Yes, I know what we are to learn from Michele and others is that changes that we make in ourselves can cause changes in others. I get that, and I want you to continue to push me to make changes in myself. And I know and have stated many times that I take fullr responsibility for the contributions that I made to this whole mess happening. I feel HORRIBLE about it and hope that someday I will be able to forgive myself for it. I feel so bad that I put H through what I did and that we have found ourselves in this mess. My personality is such that I am overly apologetic and feel very strong emotions of sadness and despair whenever I feel like I have made a mistake, especially when I know it did or may have caused someone else to hurt. That absolutely kills me inside. I would take on the hurt ten-fold myself if I could shelter someone else from hurting. Have the things I've done caused H to hurt? Absolutely. Do I know what I need to do to help with his hurt? In part. Even so, is it incredibly difficult for me to make so many changes that are tearing ME apart in order to give him his space and make him happy? It kills me. I feel like I'm being expected to make all of the sacrifices, and although that's my personality to do so, there are a lot of things that I need to do that are way out of my comfort zone and that are pushing me to grow harder than I've ever been pushed before. And let's not forget that MY H IS SLEEPING WITH OW! That tends to weigh very heavily on one's mind and make it a lot more difficult to do the right things and to grow as a person than it might be if they were not. Granted, it would not push us to grow in many of the ways we may need to, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't make it horribly difficult to endure. To ask me, a person who expresses my emotions honestly, fully, and openly to a fault sometimes (as you know), to not ever talk to H about the R/M/OW is like asking me to quit breathing sometimes. It goes completely against who I am as a person. AND I have made enormous strides in this area, whether you see it or not or whether it's how you would do it or not. I am going to backslide in this arena, because this particular aspect of DBing is a HUGE fight for me because of who I am.

Sorry for going off on a tangent here. I was just thinking earlier today when I was getting down on myself that I truly have come a really long way on this journey and that I need to recognize that and use that as a source of strength in conjunction to using your tough love as a means to kick me in the butt and make me keep fighting to CONTINUE on this journey that I know I still have so much more to experience and learn from. Point is, I wouldn't be here if I didn't care enough to keep pushing myself and to want to learn everything I can from this, regardless of the mistakes that I make and whether I am doing it as quickly as you think I should be. I realize that the clock is ticking and that there may be a point in time where I've made one too many mistakes. But I am very proud of myself for how far I've made it already, and I'm going to keep fighting to keep continuing to grow. I do care enough to want to save my M, or I wouldn't be here. Just because I am not able to implement EVERYTHING I need to do with the blink of an eye doesn't mean I haven't made some huge changes. And I'm going to continue to fall down and have to keep fighting some more things that are really difficult for me. BUT I'M HERE AND I WANT TO DO IT! If it were as easy as reading something and then just saying "well, okay, well that's easy. I'll just stop having any unnecessary contact with my H, I'll not snoop whatsoever anymore, I'll never bring up our R/M, I'll never ask him about the OW, I'll never get emotional in front of him again and never cry in front of him, I'll completely cut off communications with his family, I won't respond to him when he wants to make love to me, I will never do anything again that appears clingy, etc., etc." then nobody would be on this board, would they? Michele's advice is very easy to understand, but implementing it is another story. Every single person is going to be able to do what needs to be done at their own speed depending on their strengths, their personality, their desire to better themselves, their character, their emotions, etc., etc. As I've said before, sometimes it feels like you think there is just this switch that I'm supposed to figure out how to turn on that makes me just STOP doing anti-DBing things. I wish that it were that easy for me. I recognize when I mess up, and that's half the battle. For me to act in positive ways to work on implementing strategies to put myself in a better place, both with myself and my H and my M may take longer than you think it should. AND I have already made enormous strides for ME. I have a long way to go, and I get that, but I keep coming back here and keep reading Michele's book and keep pushing myself out of my own personal comfort zone. I'm not going to be perfect, but I am committed to continuing to pick myself back up and keep fighting for my H and my M, no matter what.

Okay. Off of my soapbox now. I hope none of you will be offended by reading what I've written. That certainly is not my intention. Maybe it's part of me getting stronger and standing up for myself, and maybe that's a good thing. I just want you to recognize that behind all of my mistakes and backslides I have done a lot of good things as well. If I hadn't been at least moving forward in some positive ways, I have to believe that my H would have filed for D and been out the door by now. He has not completely closed the door on us. In fact, his actions lately have been quite the opposite, and I feel good about that, even if you guys don't. And during the midst of him doing some very positive things, I have continued to push myself to keep distancing myself from him, to set some boundaries (though not perfectly done), to let a phone call from him go to voicemail as I feel my heart ripping out of my chest. It is EXTREMELY hard for me when I feel him coming closer to me in some ways to keep pushing him away. And I'm going to keep working at it and keep up the fight. And I'm going to win this fight. I know that in my heart, and maybe that is why I'm so impatient.

Okay. Hopefully I haven't made you all angry and cause you to not post anymore... I understand and recognize that it's human nature to remember and point out the flaws in people or the things that go wrong versus to preach praises about the things that people do right. I get that. And I WANT you to continue exactly as you are as far as beating me over the head with the errors of my ways. I'm strong enough to take it, I want to hear it, and it's helping me to get stronger. Just maybe give me some credit on occasion where credit is due, okay? I think a combination of tough love and kudos for getting things right sometimes is just what I need. Can I ask that of you?

[25yearsmlc]

29,

there is a point that you are missing. It's a big one.

For you To ask your H what You should be working on to please him (and why else would you ask him???) reveals that you have missed a FUNDAMENTAL aspect of GAL and detaching --- and so much more...YOU are the SOLE decision maker about what YOU can or will change FOR YOUR LIFE, NOT his.... I'm a lawyer (but still, a very nice person) and a wordsmith of sorts. I am frustrated b/c I just cannot find the words to show you, or help you to see the repetitious mistakes, small tactical ones, and huge crucial ones as well. The big picture, the grand scheme of things, OMG, how can I get through to you? It's right out of the Tom Cruise movie "Jerry McGuire"-- "Please, HELP ME, TO HELP YOU!!"

YIKES.....have a good day and I'll send a thought;prayer your way. Just for today, drop him as your focus. Can you do that? Bet you cannot yet. Is there at least a tiny part of you that IS aware, that knows inside, that this is UNhealthy? This is not all about love, nor will I say you "don't love him", b/c I'm not God or a mindreader....
But your dependence, your very survival as a woman, seems to be resting on someone other than yourself AND, worse, is resting on a confused guy with some growing up to do.

[2940831]

Sorry, ran out of "editing" time...

I just wanted to add that, as I've stated, I know it's human nature to point out the negatives more often than to point out the positives. To that end, though I just went off on a tangent, I also want to say that you all have also said some amazingly supportive things when I have made some positive changes, and I'm very appreciative of that. Thank you.

[2940831]

Hey, 25 --

I think our posts crossed over each other...

Thank you for your thoughts and encouragement. You have said so many things that have helped me, so don't think you aren't getting through to me, okay? And hopefully I have given you at least one more way to think about of how you can help me = support me when I do good things, too.

Sometimes it equally frustrates me that I don't feel like I can adequately state some of my struggles, fears, etc.

I can drop him as my focus for parts of my day, but certainly not for a whole day yet. AND I'm getting better at it. Being away from the office is helping with that.

As you'll read in my long tangent post I just wrote, I know I keep making some mistakes. I see it. I'm aware of it. I get it. Does that make it easy to just say "okay. I'm never going to do that again?" No. But I'm doing better most days. And I'm going to keep fighting to keep doing better and better.

Do I understand the CONCEPT of me being the only one who can make me happy? Yes. But right now is my HEART feeling my H and my M on the end of my fingertips, and is my HEART happier when my H is in my bed and in my life and laughing with me and sharing with me? Yes. To that end, I am not yet able to internalize that it is solely up to me to go out on my own, detach from him, and just be happy. That is not clicking yet. It's not that I don't understand it, but I would be lying to you if I said that it's the way I truly feel. I am intellectually-driven but have a downfall of impulsively acting on things when my heart is being pulled at.

My love life, my social life, my business life, my family life, my friends, etc., have ALL had H as a huge part of them for a very long time now. I am actually very grateful for that. At the same time, for someone who had a completely different job they went to every day from their spouse and maybe doesn't have a close family and doesn't share a lot of the same friends and social circles and business circles, etc., this concept may be a bit easier to implement. For me, almost every aspect of my world had H a very large part of it. So I am feeling pulled and pushed from every which direction. Was it unhealthy for me to be in that position before this all started? I don't know if unhealthy is the right word, but I now see that I need to put some distance between us, separate our R from our business, go out more with my friends by myself without H, etc. But up until this happened, can you see that my happiness was not so much DEPENDENT on H, but that all of the aspects in my life that CREATED happiness for me had H as a part of them, and now ALL of those things are being affected all at once? So my happiness = him being a part of my life because he makes all of those things I talked about more enjoyable for me. Does that even make sense? It's late... I'm not explaining it very well. I'm just trying to say that our lives were/are very much entangled in almost every facet you can think of. I'M GRATEFUL FOR THAT! I am so appreciative that we have been able to share so many things together and that we have enriched each other's lives so much. But I do now see that that very entanglement is part of what lead us to where we are at today. It's very important for us to make some changes in the ways I mentioned so that we can get to a better place personally and romantically and enrich each other's live in magical ways that will never, ever take us down a path even remotely close to this again.

H DOES make me happy, and I don't want to lose that. Will I be happy again without him if this doesn't work out? Yes. Am I able to do that now when the door isn't shut on our M yet and just find that drive within myself to completely detach and just make myself happy? I'm just not there yet.

I AM a very independent person in so many ways, but there will always be a part of me that knows that H completes me (another Tom Cruise tidbit). I said that early on and got immediately pounded for it, so I know you don't agree with that, but it's what's in my heart. And as I've told you before, I'm not going to lie to you and tell you I feel a way that I don't. And when you come back at me and say no one can complete another person, I hear you, but that's not the way my heart feels - whether it's right or wrong. He isn't the exclusive reason that I live, but he makes me a better person. Even through this hell, in a roundabout way, we are pushing each other to learn lessons in life that I pray will be invaluable to us and that will push us to create a magical marriage. These darkest days we are facing now are a test. I pray that we will look back on this some day with an appreciation for the growth it caused in us both that thereby created a magic we will then be able to enjoy for a lifetime...