New Thread for 2940!!!!!

[2940831]

Thanks, Lin. I hear what you are saying.

Did your H approach you to ML early on, or was it just understood between you two that neither one of you were ready?

As far as starting over with someone else regarding the whole herpes thing, I'm honestly not worried about that. That thought hasn't even crossed my mind.... honestly. I had to overcome that fear long ago, back when I first contracted this. I never was with a man who rejected me for it. I was scared when I first got it, but not anymore.

I hope it works out for me, too, Lin. I am certainly not doing this perfectly, but don't you think things are gradually getting a little bit better? I'm in a far better place then I was... both with H and with myself.

[HeartScared]

2940, it takes time. Even if he did move back in tomorrow it will take time lots of it. It may be more difficult for you to make your permanent changes with him home. It may get easy to slip back into old routines. You will probably have paranoia of what he is doing and with whom when he is not around. That could cause you to go back into the controling behavior.

My H still lives at home. When he first told me about how stressed he was, I thought if I just started cleaning like he wanted, made sure he did not have to do much, that everything would be ok. It was for awhile then I would want to know how everything was and it would send him back into stress mode or I would ask questions again about things he thought were resolved. My H is dealing with A LOT right now. Because I never got over an A from before we were married. I was driving him nuts it was adding to the stress building up within him already. I was no longer his safe place to go. I think I almost pushed him into the arms of someone else. Thankfully everything stopped, but still my H was tired of everything. He is still stressed.

I have to really step back, I have to really make changes. Sure I want to ask all sorts of questions I am impatient at times. But I also know I want this to work. So I am giving him his space. No calls, no texts, very little conversation unless he initiates, no ML unless he initiates (I was accused of forcing him ), No questions of how he is doing, no asking when he will be home. No letting him push my buttons. We work opposite shifts so we do not see eachother much. I am just waiting for him to feel better about himself and then feel good about us being together as well. Today I got really sad because he has not called my cell in 6 days. Then minutes later he called the house phone to tell me his sister was dropping by.

Its just hard really hard. I am praying a lot having faith. Hoping for the best.

[2940831]

Thanks, HS. You are being so strong. Congratulations on all of your successes. It sounds like you are really doing a great job of knowing what you need to do to make some positive changes both in yourself and in your M.

I've already been through some of the things you've described, as H came home for one week in February, and then we were gone for about 9 days on a trip together. But he left again a few days after we got back home. I remember it almost being harder for him to be home than it was for him to be away... I felt anxious all the time, worried about where he was and what he was doing, concerned and angry because he didn't want to talk about us or OW, etc. I know there is a lot, if not more, work to do once the reconciliation begins. I learned a lot the last time and hope to not make the same mistakes this time.

I didn't talk to H at all yesterday. He came home this morning for just a few minutes to get some parts for his racecar. I was home and still in bed. He came upstairs and walked down the hallway. I opened the bedroom door and said hi. He said hi and that he was home to get the parts. Then he asked me to give him a hug. I did, and then I told him that I think everything is okay as far as the outbreak. He said okay and thank you. He then went to leave and said he has some promising appointments today with owners of real estate and that he will call me later to let me know how it goes. I said okay, and then I told him that I wasn't positive about the outbreak yet but that things are looking okay so far (I didn't want him to think that I was sure just yet, since I'm not). He said thank you again, and then he left. I was so tempted to ask him about us but managed to pull myself together and let it go.

So then the anxiety pangs set in again. Just seeing him when it's kind of awkward like this is so hard. It just reinfoces the fact that it's best for me to be working from home right now and to have little contact with him.

[imLIN]

Oh...and reguards using protection...do you know what OW might have???...Human Papiloma Virus is very very commong...and is known to lead to cervical cancer!!!...She could have this, "look" normal....and H could very well bring it back to you...

Yes my H did approach me physically when he started his come back...but I held him back because 1) I wanted him to be physically checked out...if he had something it wasn't a deal breaker but something to be careful about 2) I wanted to make sure he was back to stay...as a woman when we ML it is very deeply personal...and emotional...I couldn't allow myself to be hurt again if he found he wasn't ready....Tam, remember last time he "came home" to work things out...it didn't work!!!

I don't think it will work (I could be wrong but odds are not with you) if you two move too fast to get things back to "normal"....

I know it was probably very flattering to have say all those nice things...but there is more to fixing this then that...and I think you are soaking it up and that is what is making you do better...not a healthy thing for you...you need to feel good all on your own!!!....you haven't made that journey complete...which means to me...I will repeat if not finished properly!

Take care....

[Walking]

Hi Tam

Sorry I haven't been around much on the Board. I've been on a fantastic short break to Melbourne. I went to a girlfriends engagement party (I'm still way too cynical to be too excited for her)and an associated reunion with heaps of old friends. Very good for the soul.

Tam I think you seem heaps calmer and appear to be way more rational in your acceptance/or not of what's going on in your marriage.

I kind of perceive though that some of your behaviour is really high risk and doesn't reflect well on your capacity to look after yourself.

Obviously you know about the risks associated with STDs, and how ridiculously easily and unluckily they can be transmitted - and yet you have unprotected sex? That's really dangerous when you know your sex partner has multiple partners.

Why on earth would you put yourself at that level of risk? What if the next STD you contract isn't so easy to manage? What if it is life threatening? I'm not trying to scare monger, but for the sake of using a condom you would risk your own health? It doesn't make sense.

My foster daughter was doing an assignment the other day on taxes on contraception (she's in 1st yr uni) and she was commenting how highly condoms were taxed and saying she thought they should be tax free - I made the comment to her, whatever they cost as long as they are less expensive than board, lodging and a private school education for an unplanned child they are a bargain in my book - same goes for STDs.

Part of healing yourself is leaning to care for yourself. Caring for yourself means protecting not only your emotional health, but also your phyisical health. Know what I mean?

Part of your H understanding that you are too important to let go out of his life, is demonstrating roundly to him how much you value yourself - and if that means insisting you use a condom while he has another lover - than so be it.

Most woman wouldn't even have sex with him while he had another lover - he's got it good with you, so at least make him earn that. Yeah?

Please look after yourself. I do think you sound better. It was very good work not looking for reassurances etc after that night. I know how tough it is, but you are getting much, much better.

Well done.

[2940831]

Thanks, guys. I'm hanging in there.

You are absolutely right about the unprotected sex. I know. I guess I'm just embarrassed to say anything about it, which I know is a silly reason. The consequences could be deadly, so embarrassment shouldn't get in the way... It's just so awkward from so many perspectives.

I honestly don't understand how he can come home and sleep with me and then go right back to her house... It makes me sad and angry and hurt. It's so hard because I know ML was a bone of contention in our M, so I want to show him that I'm working on it and that I DO want him, but at the same time, it makes me feel used to have him come home, we ML, and then he goes back to her. Doesn't ML to me mean anything to him? Jody (DB coach) said I've already demonstrated to him my willingness to work on the ML issue, that I've proven my point. She's probably right. I guess I just always have that voice in the back of my head that is so scared to "reject" him, scared he will get angry/hurt/etc. and end things with us... At the same time, I know I'm not respecting myself and that in turn he is not respecting me if this continues.

I thought about using this whole potential outbreak thing as a catalyst to dicuss this with him, about having unprotected sex, about being with me and then going back to her, etc., but I just feel like at least the being with me and then going back to her is not appropriate quite yet. There hasn't been enough distance/time between us yet, and I'm worried it will push him away. At the same time, I probably do at least need to address the unprotected sex/STD's issue. Maybe I wait until it comes up again? I do have a call in to him to call me tonight. I did some "examining" last night and think I did possibly find a small outbreak. I'm not positive, and it certainly didn't act like it "normally" does, but it's suspicious. So now I'm panicking and upset all at the same time. I need to tell him about it and let him make his own choices as far as HE is concerned from there. I feel horrible about it and just pray that if it was an outbreak it wasn't transferred to him. What a mess this is...

I went to the races today with H's mom. We had a nice time. H won all of his races, so that was nice. We all went out to eat afterwards. It was nice to get out of the house for a while. I cried a little when I got home. I just feel so torn when it comes to this whole family thing. I know it's anti-DBing to be going to the races, but at the same time, as I've mentioned before, it feels like being around his family may make him feel closer to me. Also, I don't want to burn any bridges with his family. I pray that this will all work out, and my absence from everything until it does work out would pique their interest... It's just a really difficult situation to be in with how close our families are...

So we'll see how the conversation goes tonight with H about the possible outbreak. I left him a message to call me when he got a chance, and he called about 10 minutes later but was still at his parents' house, and I obviously didn't want to talk about it while he was there. He said he had called me right back because he didn't know if it was urgent (I just left him a message to call me when he got the message and didn't say what it was concerning). It was nice that he called me back right away. So he asked me if I just wanted to call him later (yeah, right, let me call him in front of OW - no thanks). I told him just to call me when he was done. He said he would. I'm scared to talk to him but know I have to.

I hope that with me gradually feeling a little stronger that I will be able to respect myself more. I love ML to him, but on the other hand, it kills me that he is able to do that and then go back to her. It's not right for me to allow that. It's just that short-term reassurance thing again, I guess, and me being scared to reject him. This whole thing makes ME feel like the OW... How sad is that?

Anyway, I'll let you know how it goes. I have an appointment with both my regular doctor tomorrow and my counselor. Will let you know how those go as well.

Thanks for listening and for your encouragement.

[Walking]

It's so hard because I know ML was a bone of contention in our M, so I want to show him that I'm working on it and that I DO want him, but at the same time, it makes me feel used to have him come home, we ML, and then he goes back to her.

It's actually a really difficult irony and I sincerely get how tough this one must be for you.

Maybe I wait until it comes up again?

Good idea. It is an awkward conversation - and it's best to have those when the issue is hot rather than some random discussion point. I think random issue discussion is a woman thing, men would prefer to have the talk if and when they need to.

I have an appointment with both my regular doctor tomorrow and my counselor.

Good. How is your relationship with your counselor now? I remember you didn't feel you clicked with her inititially - is it feeling a better fit now? How does she think you are going?

Tam, I do know how hard this is for you and I think sometimes I'm too hard on you because you know what to do, you know when you're off target and you know when you are getting it right. I think you have so much potential and you have so much to gain from this experience. Unfortunately you have to go through hell to get to the other side.

I just said to someone this weekend, that my marriage break down is the absolute worst thing that has ever happened to me but it's also been absolutely the best thing that could have happened for me. You will get to that stage too.

Sleep well.

[25yearsmlc]

2940,

wow, so much to say and so little time. First, could you just STOP talking about the herpes and the outbreak or no outbreak, symptoms, risks, etc with your H NOW???

You said it once. He heard you. You did not guarantee that you had not passed it on, and he KNOWS THIS. You might have given it to him, or not. And although it is not a pleasant thought, so what if you did? He's YOUR H and he KNEW when he married you that you had it. As for OW, all I can say is that is NOT YOUR problem. Do you want to buy your H some condoms so when they ML you can feel better that you have not done anything bad? I mean, why on earth are YOU taking any responsibility for this? It's just odd. When you say you "hope" you'll have the self respect someday to .....say no, or whatever, I just get stumped by how you can write those words and not have them sink in. Anyhow, I have not finished reading your posts but wanted to say something before I put d9 to bed in case I can't read until Monday.
j-

[2940831]

Thanks, Virginia and 25.

I just got off the phone with H. We talked for over an hour. I have mixed emotions but overall hope I did the right thing.

I did tell him about me doing some examining and what I found and that I still wasn't sure but knew that I needed to at least let him know. He said he appreciated that. I told him that I had done some reading on-line and read about a blood test that one can take to see if they have the virus in their body. And I also told him that I read that an infected person can transfer the virus even when there are no signs of an outbreak (I hadn't remembered this from before...) At any rate, he will have to do with it what he deems appropriate, but I wanted to at least clear my own conscious of saying what was on my mind. I know 25 said to let it go, but I felt that I needed to follow-up this one last time on it. He can now do with the information what he chooses...

I then went ahead and let that lead into the whole unprotected sex thing. It was awkward, but since it seemed to be a smooth transition into that, I went ahead and brought it up. I said that things could obviously go either way (meaning from me to him to her/ from her to him to me, etc.) and that having unprotected sex might not be the best idea. I asked him what he thought about that, and he said he hadn't really thought about that and would have to give it some thought...

This is so frustrating to me, because I sit here and think about all of these things and try to do the right thing, and he has so often said that he hasn't really thought about this or that or whatever we're talking about. I don't know if he's just saying that because he doesn't know what to say or if that's really the truth. But if it's the truth, how in the world can he NOT think about these things? HELLO!!!! Do you not realize that your M is crumbling before your very eyes? Do you not realize that you're not staying at home with your WIFE right now and that that is not "normal"? I just don't get it... Maybe it's like Virginia said that men don't like to have "random" discussions, that they only want to deal with it when it's a hot issue. Maybe it's the same with their thinking about things, too, that they only what to think about it when it's in their face and/or when they're "forced" to make a decision/think about something???

So I then transitioned into when he DOES come home for good that it's probably a good idea if we both get tested to see if we have anything. As Lin said, I told him that it's okay if we do have something but that it would be a good idea to know if we were dealing with anything so that we could be cautious about it. He said he understood... Ugh... So I guess I've at least laid the groundwork for that when the time comes.

Anyway, I then let that transition into him coming home and ML to me and then going back to her. (Let's just get it all out, right? Ugh...) I told him that it was giving me mixed messages (like what Jody said to tell him) and that it was both confusing and hard on me, that I loved it when he came home and spent time with me and that I have really enjoyed making love to him but at the same time that I just didn't understand what he was doing and why, etc., and that it is hard on me. I told him that I felt like I wasn't respecting myself. (That was hard to say...) I told him it was hard for me to tell him all of this, because I enjoyed it when he came home and was scared that he would think he couldn't come home anymore but that I just needed to let him know how I felt. I may have burned this bridge now in that he might pull away from me and not come home anymore, but I know that's probably for the best until he's ready to come home for good. I hope he will look at this more as me taking a stand for myself and that he'll respect me for that... It's all I can hope for at this point. It was so hard to push those words out of my mouth, because I was worried that by saying this he will not come home again and that I am losing that bit of short reassurance time again. But, again, I know it's not healthy for me to be gaining reassurance from it and that it's not good for him to be coming home and then not staying home. It's so hard, because HE IS *MY* H. I should have the right to be able to spend time with him and ML to him. At the same time, it's just not fair to anyone for him to be playing both sides of the fence. Anyway, I've now expressed my concerns with this, so we'll see what happens from here. As I said, I just have to pray that he will respect me for it.

Anyway, I asked him his thoughts on this. (I'm trying to ask more open-ended questions to see if it will help him to participate more in the conversations and have me not be so overbearing.) I think he said something like that he enjoyed spending "some" time with me. I said "okay, so you want to spend SOME time with me, but you're not ready to spend full-time with me?" He said yes. Ugh...

I asked him if it was because of me or because of him that he wasn't ready. He said both of us. So I asked him if he could tell me what *I* could be working on. He said he didn't like what we were doing now (meaning having that conversation). I've obviously known this all along, that he doesn't like talking about the M/R right now and that it's anti-DBing to do so. When I've managed to stay strong and avoid any "conflicts" with him for a while and created distance is when he's come in closer to me. I get this. At the same time, there is absolutely no way that I can be in a R in which I cannot talk to my H about personal matters. That just won't work. So I told him that I obviously know that we have difficulties communicating about personal issues and that I was committed to working on finding a way to be able to do so but that I prayed that he didn't think that the answer was that we just never talk about things. He said no, that he understands that we need to talk and that he wants to work on us finding a way to be able to communicate better about personal things. So that was good that he at least said that... I told him that I hoped he knew that I know there is a problem with our communication skills and that I wasn't deliberately trying to bring things up to make him angry or frustrate him. He said he knows that.

So my heart beat fast as I asked him about whether for *his* part of why he's not ready to come home was because he was confused about his decision. He kept asking me to re-word the question, saying he didn't understand what I was asking. I was trying to be delicate, but I eveentually just had to lay it out. I said something like "are you confused about your decision to work on our M, or is that still your decision?" He said that it is still his decision and that he has made his decision on that. (Okay. So what in the heck are you still doing with OW? I KNOW that I have a lot to work on and that I haven't created a safe environment for him to come home to yet, but why not sleep at the office now that I'm not there? Why not come home and sleep in the other room for a while? Why not do ANYTHING but continue to sleep with OW if your heart is telling you to work on your M? How in the world am I supposed to thing that he is NOT confused when his actions are so not following his "decision"? Ugh...)

Anyway, I don't remember what order all of these items came up in exactly or what we talked about last, but at some point he told me he was getting frustrated again... So I finished up what we were talking about and then just said something like "Okay. Let's talk about something else for a few minutes so that we can end our conversation on a good note." Then I just brought up some random business things. We talked about some future business plans, which I probably shouldn't have done, but oh well at this point. I was just trying I guess to sound positive about our future. (I did throw into our conversation at some point that I obviously have a lot of thinking to do right now of my own - throw out some mystery and distance there a little bit. And, obviously, this is not a lie. There will come a point where I've had enough of this. I'm not there yet, but I am not prepared to go the rest of my life like this obviously.)

So, like I said, we were on the phone overall for over an hour, probably talked about the R stuff maybe 20 minutes of that.

As I said, I have mixed feelings about our conversation. I'm proud of myself for bringing up a lot of these things, as it was really hard for me to do. Even though I know these are the right things to say in our situation, it's hard to not feel like I'm taking risks and cutting my own throat in some respects. I'm only human. 25, you said it's hard to read my posts about me "hoping" to be able to respect myself, etc. As I've tried to explain, intellectually I get all of this, but to be able to act on these things and internalize them and follow through on it is hard for me. I admit that I'm scared. I'm worried that by standing up for myself and saying some of these things it may cost me my M, and that's really hard to think about, regardless of whether it's right or wrong to feel that way. Any move that I make, thing that I say, etc., could make or break my M. I constantly have that ringing in the back of my mind. I'm only human, and I wear my emotions on my sleeve, and I'm honestly very, very scared. There is so much at stake.

Virginia, you asked about my counselor. It's maybe going a bit better. I'm still not sure if it's the best fit but am hanging in there. I feel like we've gotten past some of the initial stuff as far as her understanding more about who I am and the ways I react to things, etc. So we're getting into some more problem-solving now, which is nice. I'll give it a while longer. I feel SO MUCH better after I talk to Jody (DB coach) on the phone, so I guess I'm comparing it to that. I feel like a lot of what I'm doing when I see the counselor is getting things off of my chest and rambling on and on (like I'm doing now) rather than her coaching me through things and taking the lead a little bit more. And she hasn't really said how she thinks I'm doing. She has told me I've done a good job when I've done things that have shown me standing up for myself, etc., so that's been nice. But that's about it.

At any rate, I want to talk to her tomorrow about some suggestions for working on personal conversations with H. I know that I need to do what I can to avoid those conversations period right now, but at the same time, I want to work on learning what *I* can do from my side of this to get better at communicating. I can't practice it much yet, but I want to get a better understanding of why we can't communicate about these issues and what I can do to be better at it. I did tell H that I realized that we needed to work on this ultimately but that there were going to be some things in the interim that had to be talked about (like the outbreak thing).

So, we'll see what she has to say about it. I'm also going to talk to her about what 1210 said about the neurosis and get her feedback on that, too.

Tam, I do know how hard this is for you and I think sometimes I'm too hard on you because you know what to do, you know when you're off target and you know when you are getting it right.

Virginia, quite the contrary. I admit that it's hard sometimes, but I really appreciate when you guys are hard on me and tell me like it is, when you tell me when I've screwed up and when you challenge my ways of thinking and give me other things to think about and other perspectives. Virginia, I can't tell you how many times you have said just the right thing to comfort me and bring things together in my mind when I've been given some tough love. (Which, by the way, I'm very thankful for. I don't mean that in a negative way.) You have so many times said just the right thing to top off the advice I was being given, to help solidify it in my mind for me. In addition, it makes me feel so good that there are so many of you that are going down this road through hell with me and are standing by my side and have the confidence in me to be honest and tell me when I've messed up and hit me with 2X4's... I appreciate that you believe in me enough to stick with me and to be open and honest and frank with me. So, thank you all. Please keep it up!

Virginia, I keep forgetting to tell you how much it touched my heart when you talked about telling your X-H about me and my M and that you discussed it with him and the things you and he said about it. I just thought to myself, "wow, to think that someone I've never met or even talked to via voice is talking about me and my M within her own life?" That was really powerful and meaningful for me in a way I can't really find the appropriate words to explain. Thank you for caring so much. I really mean that. Thanks to all of you.

So, let me know what you think of how I handled this. I know I rambled too much to him. I'm working on recognizing when I do that and being more conscientious of it. I do feel good that I was able to bring up these issues but at the same time am so scared... I hope that makes sense. I hope what I've said will do us good in the long run, even if the short run might be harder for me.

Sorry for rambling on so long. Thanks for listening...

[25yearsmlc]

29,

Come on, you asked him (count how many times you say you "asked him") a question....and he gave nothing, or little specifics back. You worry about each and every thing YOU say and that THAT MIGHT CAUSE the M to END !!??....

I'm sorry. I must have missed something. I thought it was YOUR HUSBAND that was cheating and deceiving. I had no idea that the entire marriage rests on what YOU will do or say and how, or when you say it, and THAT was the foundation of your marital problems..... Silly me, I thought just a little of this was HIS responsibility and that your main one, for now, was working on you and enforcing a (ANY) boundary with him...

Your revolving around him is part of the problem and will NEVER be part of the solution. GAL partly, will mean making something/someone ELSE take that place, like maybe you or your kids, or God, or someone OTHER than a man who sleeps with YOU and OW....again and again...and lies...but, hey, his hugs feel soooo goood. And afterwards, you always feel soooooo ......what?

Please take your lunch hour sometime and instead of calling him, re-read ALL these posts to you, and see what is STILL happening. Then ask yourself how bad it will have to get, Before you'll try something different, for more than a week.
j-