Whore/Madonna Syndrome

[Heywyre]

I didn't really think this existed until I had to deal with it myself. My H has pretty much always been the LD partner, but I accepted it and worked around it (so to speak) however things progressively got worse and ended up with him having 2 A's within a 4-year period

finally it came out that he could have women sexually OR as friends but could not put the two of them together. Thus our problem. We have been the best of friends for the whole 19 years we have been together. The closer we get emotionally, the further apart we get sexually. We haven't ML in about 18 months and it was close to 2 years before that time. In the past 10 years I can count on one hand how many times we have ML - pretty sad eh? And, the really surprising thing is I'm still here!!

I love this man more than anything and I believe that he is finally ready to work on things. He admits to having too much respect for me to "use me" sexually - that is how he perceives it and it is going to take some drastic changes in both of us to move this to a better place

Any suggestions out there?

[Greeneyedlass]

Heywyre,

Personally I think he's going to need some very intense IC to help him change his frame of thinking about sex, and YOU. FWIW, my H also cheated, online...through Adult Friend Finder. Our entire marriage he had shown no real interest in me sexually, so I'm all too familiar with all of the emotions you've experienced...and it is devastating to deal with. I would get the "I just don't think about sex" response, "It's not you.", "Of course I think your attractive and sexy"...all of those things...but his actions never matched his words.

We went to MC to address our issues for nearly a year and a half before I found out what he was really up to (the entire time we were in counseling). I finally had to install a keylogger to get the truth...and boy did I get the truth. He did think about sex, he had sexual needs, he just didn't turn to me to fulfill them....OUCH!!! It took this horrible discovery though to finally bring the real issue to light...so we could deal with it, and it very nearly ended our marriage. I wasn't sure at first I could get past what he had done...but something told me not to give up and I'm glad I didn't. We ar now doing much better.

Has the sex increased....yes, but not drastically...but it's better than it was. Has our relationship improved, absolutely! Are we still working on addressing this issue...yes. However I am now in a place in our marriage where I know I can be content with us as we are, things improving (if they do) will simply be a bonus. NOW, my H no longer turns to porn for his fix at all...his attentions must turn to me if he wants that need met, because of that there has been a definite change in his behavior towards me...for the better. I believe with further encouragement, and positive reinforcement things will continue to improve...but I have no idea how quickly...and that's ok.

Another thing I've been doing since my discovery of his online activity is this...I don't hide the sexual side of myself anymore. For too long I felt I had to suppress that side of me...because he made it appear like I was pressuring him with it. Perhaps it was pressure in his perspective, but guess what? It's who I am and I'm not hiding it anymore....my not hiding my sexual side, my flirty side, my fairly raunchy side...has forced him to learn to deal with me....as I am. Best thing I could have ever done.

GEL

[RedHeadWife]

Hopefully there are some guys around here who can give you some input into how their minds work.

I can't remember now if you guys are going to C or not. I guess I would think this would be something he is going to need to do some serious C work on if he will.

Or, like me, decide to change my thinking on the whole ML issue and my "issues" surrounding it all and JUST DO IT and enjoy, but I'm not saying this is possible for everyone to do.

Hang in there!!

[Greeneyedlass]

Cadesmom,

Unfortunately with someone who has whore/madonna...the old "just do it", while a nice thought simply isn't as easy as it sounds.

I can honestly tell you that with my H I can see sometimes that he WANTS to be able to "just do it", he's sincere in his words to me that he wants to...but there is something that stops him from getting started. It's like an invisible barrier if you will.

In a sense I can kind of understand what he must be going through. I was the ONLY one initiating any sexual contact in our relationship....the entire time. At points I just reached a place where yes, I wanted sex, yes, I thought about sex, yes, I found him completely attractive to me....but I simply COULD NOT bring myself to initiate ANY sexual contact whatsoever. I mean even thinking about having to initiate it...well that pretty much got rid of the desire to do it. I have a very strong suspicion this is similar to what he has to deal with.

My H has a tendancy to overthink rather than act on impulse sometimes...which is what I think probably needs to happen to get him past this barrier.

Now that I think about it though he did see a Neurological Psychologist for awhile who did help him learn to think differently. This guy helped to a degree...unfortunately he seemed more interested in doing tests on my H than helping him to really learn to think about this issue in a different manner.

GEL

[RedHeadWife]

Well & guys and gals think so differently and are "wired" so differently!! Like I said, hopefully there are some guys around here who can give some insight.

[OG_Lou]

hopefully there are some guys around here who can give some insight.

The Madonna part:
One reason for the W/M is all of the things many men hear that a man having a sex drive is something he should hold in check so he isn't a pest.

Another reason might be when a guy hears something less than expected (his advance was not received well) he takes it as a no instead of try something different or not right now.

When a guy rally considers what the gal feels/says, then he proceeds with caution for two reasons. Not to be rejected or not wanting to be perceived as doing something wrong. Also as self protection and not to appear inconsiderate of the gal's feelings.

In some cases he is thinking, "better do this right this time or risk making the next time he wants to have sex with her more difficult.”

The Whore part I don't have any first hand experience in that area.

I saw some of what I would consider W behavior. My opinion is, it was mostly selfishness on the guy's part. What ever they did together was for the moment and a F was a F and didn’t mean they would be together in the future or long term.

One of the main problems I see men having concerning the Whore/Madonna Syndrome is men thinking men and women look at sex from two very different views. I think if men would think of women as different but more similar to men, sort of “over-lapping bi-modal model” that would help both sexes move away from the Whore/Madonna problem.

For me, hearing all of the things that can go wrong with a sexual R and all of the taboos associated with premarital sexual R’s, just getting married didn’t erase the picture of what not to do, what women didn’t like.

In my early days of marriage I was pleasantly surprised what my W liked sexually. What I heard as a youngster was wrong. We had our good times. Sad part is, now that we have been M for a very long time, (what I heard as a youngster and early 20's) it is becoming true.

Lou

[RedHeadWife]

I was thinking about it @ lunch today and this phenominon could also be compared to a woman's trouble w/ being her H's lover and the mother of her children.

Does anyone agree?

I know I had issues w/ this as it was hard for me to either see myself as both or switch hats at the end of the day.

[Heywyre]

You are so right Green - if it was all about "just do it" I am sure I could get my H to at least cooperate but he has told me time and time again, it has nothing to do with him not wanting to do it, its just when he thinks about it, something in his mind shuts it off. Its not voluntary, its his sub-conscious not allowing him to "go there". Its one thing for a woman to say "just do it" but if a guy can't perform because mentally something is blocking it from happening, it just ain't gonna happen

I know he loves me, he too LOVES to cuddle - its one of his favorite things to do. Why? Probably because it doesn't involve sex and its an okay thing to do with someone you love - but having sex - YIKES!! thats a whole other story. Its not that he thinks sex is disgusting but he has told me numerous times that people put too much emphasis on sex (which I agree with) but on the other hand, its normal for a married couple to have sex - this is the part he finds extremely hard to get past.

He says its like he is abusing or taking advantage of me and you don't do that to someone you love, someone you care about, some who is your best friend. He has always associated sex with disrespect of a woman (brought up in a very British family).

He knows what he is doing isn't right, he's admitted it numerous times, but that doesn't mean his mind is going to allow him to just get over it. It's not a question of just scheduling the time. This is something that is going to take a long, long process and the only way I can see us getting through it is to do some of the things you talked about Green - to start right back at the beginning like we were first dating. Just a little touch here and there, a passionate kiss - nothing too much at once and bit by bit, as he gets used to it, and doesn't associate it with being "bad" we can move to the next step. I sure hope it doesn't take another 19 years, I'm running out of desire - lol

[Greeneyedlass]

Cadesmom,

I think in some ways yes, it could be comprable to that. It also happens that there are some women out there who are only sexually attracted to "bad boys" but they wouldn't marry a "bad boy"...they want the really nice/stable guy for a husband and father of her children....but she's not sexually attracted to that. So both could work for an analogy with women.

GEL

[SouthernGirl]

I think it's entirely possible that some LD women aren't really LD at all, but simply have a female version of a M/W complex, like you said, Greeneyedlass.