You just do not get this at all. I'll try to elaborate.
I find it helps some to see with adult eyes that a behavior or a feeling was a response to a situation that you either misjudged or you are no longer facing, as a way to convince yourself to start letting go of it.
First off, you are not me and you did not experience my childhood. Second, you are not a licensed therapist. Third, this is not, for me, a theoretical discussion. We are talking about my life, so that makes it personal.
Inappropriate comments from my father about my developing body and inappropriate comments from my mother about her shameful unwed pregnancy and date rape--told to me when I was a pre-adolescent--were misjudgements on THEIR parts, NOT mine. And because they are my parents and I have chosen to continue a relationship, I still face these issues. There are triggers like the Betrayal Bond book mentions that bring up these feelings in me again and again. Sure, I could have cut myself off from them, but I didn't want to do that. Maybe I'll determine that I need to. I don't know. And that is the point. I don't know. What I do know is that I am working my butt off to heal myself. And that's good enough for me.
Not that it gets you anywhere near all the way there, but at least you can begin to detach from it and stop identifying the behavior as an "inescapable part of you" or defending it or blaming it on unwitting third parties.
This sounds like avoidance to me. I believe the only way I can truly let go of this is to face it head on, feel everything associated with it and then let it go, as Corri said. I don't believe it is an inescapable part of me, but I don't just expect it to disappear into thin air either.
And little kids do have the ability to reason. They don't do it as well as we do, but they do reason and they do make choices.
They most certainly do not in a situation such as mine.
I said this in my old thread:
Quote:
I don't know that it's possible for the mother to explain away inappropriate fatherly behavior to a 10 year old. The child simply would not have the maturity to understand human behavior enough to be able to view the behavior in this context.
Edited to add: And she shouldn't have to. Why is it the child's responsibility to understand the parent?.
And then fearless wrote this:
Quote:
Sorry I gave James Hollis' book the wrong name - It is Middle Passages: From Misery to Meaning in Midlife
Mrs CAC 4 - I looked the book up on Amazon this morning and looked inside the book. This quote jumped out at me right away.
Your opinion is the same as this Jungian psychologist (I added the bold): "The conclusions about the world drawn by the child are thus derived from a narrow spectrum and are inevitably partial and prejudicial. The child cannot say, "My parent has a problem, which has an effect upon me." The child can only conclude that life is anxious and the world unsafe."
Sometimes those choices need to be revisited and altered in later life, but that happens with choices we make later in life as well.
Well, duh! What the heck do you think I'm trying to do?
I guess I'm not really getting that. Directing anger at parents feels to much to me like a "Devil made me do it" defense. Maybe you're right, that it is a step along the way, but it feels so much like misplaced blame and a distorted view of what actually happened.
This comment makes me wonder if you are having difficulty facing something from your past.
But from my own POV--I was born a healthy whole child. A blank slate. My parents' behavior caused me to develop unhealthy views of sex, pregnancy, men, and my female body. There is nothing distorted about that. I am not mistaken about that. I am not making sh!t up and I am not dreaming. These things happened. I did not ask for it. I did not deserve it. They happened. Now I see that I have adopted defense mechanisms to deal with my fears. I am starting to understand exactly what those DMs are. Once they are all out into the open and I can see that although they helped me survive as a child, I no longer need them, I will be able to let them go. This is already starting to happen, and my improved attitude about my sexuality is proof of that. It is happening.
But speculation backed up by experience and research.
This is just nonsense. Each person reacts differently to events based on many different factors, including personality, attachment style to parents, gender, and so on. I have spent nearly 40 years feeling like I was a freak and at fault for what happened and I WILL NOT feel that way about myself anymore. This is me saying that I'm not a victim now. I can see things with my adult's eye and put the responsibility where is rightly sits. I completely stand behind my child-self and her reactions to her life and I don't give a whit what you or anyone else thinks about that.
We had choices, even back then. Our parents did not have all the power. We could have done something different.
You must have been living in an alternate universe. My mother held ALL the cards back then, and she made sure I knew it.
And we still can, although long habit makes it difficult.
And on this, I do agree with you.
Yes, it was a deliberate understatement. Hey look, another defense mechanism! Cut the monster down to size, laugh at it, and maybe I'll have what it takes to attack it.
Or maybe, as one that's tempermentally prone to distraction, calling this thing a "distraction" is a way to excuse myself for not having gotten the better of it after all these years. And I'm back to "the devil made me do it". See how tempting it is?
The choices we made as children are what they are. We had no choice. We had no power. We were at the mercy of our parents, and if they were merciful, we were very lucky. If they weren't we paid the price. Now as adults, our job is to untangle that web of dysfunction and try to put our lives back together. AND, try not to pass it on to our kids. We do that with the maturity and capacity we now have as grown-ups. But first we have to honor and respect the children inside us and the choices we had to make to survive.
Still preggo. This baby is due on Saturday. This is my longest running pregnancy - EVER!!!! I plan to take a long walk when I get home. It might not be comfortable but dang.......I want to see this kid already!
MrsNop was in labor about 4:00am in the morning. I decided that I was hungry and wanted to go down to the cafeteria for a salad. So, I took her with me.
She went into transition in the cafeteria. It was a real challenge getting her back to the room. I don't think I will ever live that one down
I hope your delivery is more fun than pain! -NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
Good luck!!! Been there, done that, 3 times! I told H the other night that, w/ us acting like rabbits now, it's a good thing I got fixed 3 boys is enough, love 'em though!
Me: 38 H: 35 S4, S5, S10 Bomb 01/07 Wanted D - nothing would change his mind Numerous A's prior to D bomb; EA prior/during D bomb Piecing 04/07 Deployed for a year 05/07 Still Piecing 2010 M 11 yrs 05/10
I'm thinking of you woman. Don't forget to take your computer with you into delivery and tell the doctors you have to hold off on pushing so you can update your friends on the BB of your progress.
You know, we all talk about boundaries, defense mechanisms and differentiation like we are discussing last night's baseball game. And it certainly does help to do post-game analysis.
But the fact is... all those things are exceedingly hard things to put in place and live by. Especially when you set a boundary that runs in direct conflict with a defense mechanims you might not even know is there.
It is incredibly hard to undo engrained behaviors... especially ones you naturally put in place to PROTECT yourself. That is exactly why it is there. It pre-empts rational thought to SAVE you. You look at professional sports players... all the great ones, the truly great ones... are players who do not THINK... they just act/react.
And while that is wonderful for them in their 'game' life... it is an entirely different thing in the real world, for real people.
Seriously, turn your stove on to its highest setting. When it is red hot, take your hand and place it on the burner. Try doing this, really.
In the act of doing it, you will understand, literally, what I am talking about. You won't be able to do it.
Now... in real life, this is a good defense mechanism. You don't want to go around burning yourself. It is in place to protect your body.
But the mind does not make any distinction between good or bad defense mechanisms. They just ARE.
So, like Ms. Cac, when you come up against one you KNOW is not good for you, it will take TIME to work through it, and you do it gradually, or the defense mechanism itself will shut down the entire process.
So while I understand, rationally, the points you are making... again, it is easy to discuss and disect it when you are not the one actually having to undo it. And more than likely, it isn't just ONE you are undoing. We have multiple layers of DMs, learned over a life time. One can set off another. The WAY they get set off can differ from circumstance to circumstance, from person to person, how stressed you are... all kinds of things. And again, if you are not aware of them, you just ASSUME you are acting/reaction rationally and logically. It doesn't even cross your mind that you are doing anything BUT.
When you begin to contemplate this, you can see exactly HOW complex it can all get, and wonder how the he!! we humans manage to live in a semi-civil environment, ever.
I continue to run into these very issues myself when I talk to my shrink. In my own life, with the my own things, issues and recovery that I am dealing with... I am just OUT of patience. I'm DONE bouncing around. I'm sick of it.
My shrink just chuckles at me. He thinks it is highly humorous that I've run out of patience and have decided that my body/emotions/life baggage have hit MY deadline for healing. It just doesn't WORK that way. Quite honestly, my running of out patience just makes it worse.
And Cobra, I did get pissed at my shrink this time. After my little drama fit, I say, "so what do I do?" And he looks at me with his gentle blue eyes, he smiles at me, and he says in a very caring voice, "you do your best with what you've got to work with, and you try again." He cracks some wise-ass joke to take the reality and sting from his truthful comment, to help me laugh at myself, and give me courage to get over my own despondency.
He doesn't judge me. He doesn't remind me of the own actions I've taken that have gotten me to this point. For BLAME, whether it belongs with me or someone else, is not relevant. He helps me to let go of blame (as Mrs. Cac is trying to do), acknowledge the hurt... help me accept it, so I can move on.
Oh, and to make this even MORE fun and slightly more complex:
You will continue to invite in and create situations that created the defense mechanisms to begin with.
For example, just ONE of my defense mechanisms is a fear of intimacy. Shocking, I know. I continue to seek out emotionally distant men, or men who have absolutely no emotional boundaires... so that I can operate in a mode that I am comfortable. In both instances, I am safe. For in one, I cannot get close, and in the other, I must distance in order to not be engulfed.
That is a flippin' pisser. And the only way to deal with either situation is through recognition of what I am doing, and BOUNDARIES. Putting the boundaries in place is one thing. Enforcing the boundaries is where it gets really, really, really tough for me, for ANOTHER of my defense mechanisms was to give up ALL personal boundaries as a child in order to maintain at least SOME emotional connection and semblance of keeping peace, creating a sense of safety (real or not), and NOT being abandoned.
THOSE things set off OTHER defense mechanisms, for you recognize that something isn't quite healthy about your environment and the people in it... so you go to put boundaries in place, and it sets off the whole fippin' cycle all over again.
You know, we all talk about boundaries, defense mechanisms and differentiation like we are discussing last night's baseball game. And it certainly does help to do post-game analysis.
But the fact is... all those things are exceedingly hard things to put in place and live by. Especially when you set a boundary that runs in direct conflict with a defense mechanims you might not even know is there.
It is incredibly hard to undo engrained behaviors... especially ones you naturally put in place to PROTECT yourself. That is exactly why it is there. It pre-empts rational thought to SAVE you. You look at professional sports players... all the great ones, the truly great ones... are players who do not THINK... they just act/react.
And while that is wonderful for them in their 'game' life... it is an entirely different thing in the real world, for real people.
Seriously, turn your stove on to its highest setting. When it is red hot, take your hand and place it on the burner. Try doing this, really.
In the act of doing it, you will understand, literally, what I am talking about. You won't be able to do it.
Now... in real life, this is a good defense mechanism. You don't want to go around burning yourself. It is in place to protect your body.
But the mind does not make any distinction between good or bad defense mechanisms. They just ARE.
So, like Ms. Cac, when you come up against one you KNOW is not good for you, it will take TIME to work through it, and you do it gradually, or the defense mechanism itself will shut down the entire process.
So while I understand, rationally, the points you are making... again, it is easy to discuss and disect it when you are not the one actually having to undo it.
But I have been the one having to undo it. And I'm still working on it, but applying present-day insights to past experiences has gotten me part of the way there. I'm not just throwing this stuff out there to hear myself talk, or to rag on anyone else. I don't mean to imply that any of this stuff is, or should be, easy. It's not.
Nothing I've done has gotten rid of all my fears and anxieties for good, but I've at least gotten a measure of confidence that they can be gotten rid of, that there are perfectly logical reasons for these fears to exist (i.e., I'm not congenitally messed up in the head... or not all that much) but that there is, in reality, nothing to be afraid of, and that I'll eventually reach the point where I'm not afraid anymore. And that confidence slowly builds on itself. I may not be where I need to be, but I don't despair anymore that I'll never get there and I feel confident that I'll eventually be the man I should have been years ago.
I'm sorry if I gave anyone the wrong impression. I'm sorry if anyone tried this and found it not to work. I did not mean to give offense or make light of anyone's situation. I still don't think I explained myself 100% clearly and precisely. I will stop now and think on this some more and read what you have to say, and hopefully see what I'm missing.
a fine and enviable madness, this delusion that all questions have answers, and nothing is beyond the reach of a strong left arm.
