New or continuing medical problems for BB. I am getting to the point where I don't see much of a chance for any positive changes and am about to bag the sex life with BB.
Right now I have to just hang on till and if something changes.
Cobra, combine the idea of working too much with working too hard and picture where I am. Some of the reasons I post this over and over again, is me admitting I didn't have the best plan that would have lead to being a well rounded family man.
No, I now think the reason you post this over and over is so you have an excuse to not take the leader role. Your concern and compassion for the feelings of others is commendable, but I think you also do it to protect yourself. Pleasing others means you do not have to confront the possibility of anyone disliking you and not following. You don't have to make the hard decisions. You can always be the good guy and never have to take the blame.
Exactly! This is what my H does. He prefers to hand over decisions to me then blame me for being "overbearing" when something does not turn out to his liking.
Lou I really wish you could talk to my H about the downfalls of working too hard. I see it as a way to hide himself away. He can always claim "too busy" and that way he doesn't have to engage in anything as scary as intimacy. He can claim the moral high ground too, work after all is seen as a virtuous pursuit.
Cobra's points about leadership are good. Just after D5 was born and S7 was still a toddler H took a stand and said he HAD to spend one night a week out of the house and I would just have to deal with it. It pissed me off at the time but I got used to it. That was when he took up scuba diving and subsequently took a few weekends off to go diving. The truth is it did him good and it didn't do me any harm either.
Don't get the single-level house. A couple who are friends with my parents moved into a single level house a few years ago - their knees have got WORSE because they no longer have the practise of walking up and down stairs. Use it or lose it.
Fran
if we can be sufficient to ourselves, we need fear no entangling webs Erica Jong
Lou said combine the idea of working too much with working too hard and picture where I am
Cobra said No, I now think the reason you post this over and over is so you have an excuse to not take the leader role.
Reality at the time cobra is I felt I had to work that much to pay for things we wanted. Looking back, we bought too many things.
Part of the reason was we moved to a better neighborhood where we were the low person on the totem pole. I felt somewhat less than my neighbors as did BB and the Kids.
Look where it got me, a bad back, a less than desirable M, but a nice house and a fair retirement fund.
Pleasing others means you do not have to confront the possibility of anyone disliking you and not following. You don’t have to make the hard decisions. You can always be the good guy and never have to take the blame. Maybe that too Cobra.
Fran Lou I really wish you could talk to my H about the downfalls of working too hard. Fran, I post some of the things I have done as a warning to others if they want to listen. I don't just post to make excuses for why I don't have what I want. I also post to gather ideas that will work for me.
I would be glad to chat with your H. BTW, he isn't the only one discussed her on the forum that works too much.
Fran Exactly! This is what my H does. He prefers to hand over decisions to me then blame me for being "overbearing" when something does not turn out to his liking. I don't think much about blaming BB for most of my over working, but I see where I have in the past.
I see it as a way to hide himself away. He can always claim "too busy" and that way he doesn't have to engage in anything as scary as intimacy. Well Fran, that sounds like BB.
Too busy to engage in scary intimacy????? Not even close in my situation.
I worked because I wanted to have the so called standard things of life. Our neighbors husbands and wives, worked. BB was a SAHM, kind of puts an extra burden on me, doesn't it?
Neighbors at the time were earning ~$35K between the two of them. Me, maybe ~$22K with over-time. Do you see how I felt like I didn't measure up.
I also had customers for my home based business where I would repair their car at home. Turn them down or make them wait too long and they don’t come back. That is a BIG worry for someone self employed. It isn't about fear of intimacy, not by a long shot. for me it was insecurity, how to keep it all together on the outside while I did for almost everyone else.
It's only later that I see, doing for others and putting myself last and BB next to last, is where I how the plan of mild fear of failing screwed up our R and my back.
I heard and saw many "lazy people" stories and I wasn't going to be one of them.
Chrome started out in his adult life with a lot of insecurities and low self-esteem. He went to college and eventually earned a Ph.D. Me I quit school in the 10 grade, did odd jobs partially to support myself and eventually support my mother.
So working was a way out of poverty for me. Working was an education because the more types of auto repairs I did, I became a better mechanic. I did some good things some of my peers didn't do by working.
Enough about me. Ask your H why he works long hours. I am not him and he has different reasons than I do.
Just after D5 was born and S7 was still a toddler H took a stand and said he HAD to spend one night a week out of the house and I would just have to deal with it. It pissed me off at the time but I got used to it. That was when he took up scuba diving and subsequently took a few weekends off to go diving. The truth is it did him good and it didn't do me any harm either. That is good to hear Fran. I didn't get much exposure to other people till I was 6. Then we moved a lot and I went to ~28 different schools.
Don't get the single-level house. I will consider your advice. I pushed BB to go to a Dr. and physical therapy. I thought the medical approach needed to be done either way.
Lou
PS I am just trying to be helpful so don't take offence at anything I said.
I worked because I wanted to have the so called standard things of life. Our neighbors husbands and wives, worked. BB was a SAHM, kind of puts an extra burden on me, doesn't it?
This is SUCH co-dependent and shame based thinking. BB did not put any burden on you. You put it on yourself. I think you wanted to move to a better neighborhood, have BB a SAHM and try to live the life you’ve always wanted. Nothing wrong with that. We all want to do better for our families and our kids. But no matter how well you do, there is always a better neighborhood to strive for.
The problem with your thinking is that it is self delusion. You are not accepting your responsibility but instead blaming BB for your actions. You think you are working to make others happy, that is you responsibility, at it is, to a point. But you seem to believe BB is in control of your sitch. So you get frustrated with BB for “making” you work so hard. You become the victim. But you are the one allowing her to do this. You give away your power, then get resentful at her because you did what she asked.
BB was not the perpetrator. She may have asked to live in a nice neighborhood. But that is all she can do. As a SAHM, she has little power to force you to buy a house there. But once you did, what was she going to do? Should she say she was wrong in asking for it? Should she decide to get a job? BTW, did she want to work or did you want her to be a SAHM?
I see two issues at play here. One is deep shamed based thinking, trying too hard to please others to avoid being seen as a failure. You are what you are. If you do not like your station in life, then you can change it if you want. But you are what you are and there is no need to be ashamed of it. “A man’s got to know his limitations” (Dirty Harry).
The other issue I see in your example is a total lack of boundaries. If you do not want to work yourself to death, then say so, tell BB to get used to whatever lifestyle you can support on your income, and leave it at that. If she does not like it, she can go to work. Or she can leave you. If you fear her leaving you, but the pain of working the long hours is less than your imagined pain of her leaving, then you should be happy. You made a choice and you got your outcome. You work long hours and she stays.
If at some point you decide the pain of working is now greater than the pain of her leaving, then cut back on the work. Now it is time for her to weigh her options. Very likely she will decide the pain of a lower lifestyle is less than leaving. But she also knows she can complain about it, and in so doing change the pain levels of your choice. As long as she knows her complaints can tilt your choice, there is reason for her to complain.
You are the one allowing her complaints to have an impact. If you do not give her that power, there is nothing she can do except be content with the new status quo, get a job to improve the standard of living, or leave. Which do you think she will choose?
This seems a fairly simple problem to me. You further complicate it by throwing in your guilt. You want her to choose the lower standard of living and be content with it, even happy about it. BB will not do that, nor would anyone else. If you want BB to make this choice, then accept that she will be unhappy about it, but she will accept it and after a while she will adjust. But stop sabotaging yourself though your guilt and shame of BB’s unhappiness. That is her problem, not yours.
You are trying to get both outcomes – a more tolerable number of working hours AND the gratitude and praise from BB (and her relations) for making such a “rational” decision. Ain’t gonna happen.
So which is going to be the less painful choice – your long hours at work or the shame and guilt you feel from BB? Stop throwing the sex issue into the mix because I am starting to think that is only a distraction. I know you want more sex, but I also see you trying to convince BB that if you worked less and settled for fewer things, you could make her happier by teaching her to value your love and commitment over material things. But those are the priorities of your values, not her. So stop trying to control her to adopt your values. It hasn’t worked yet and I doubt it ever will. I don’t think she will ever be able to flip her priorities of what makes her happy (at least not without major counseling). So if this is the case, you might as well drop the guilt and shame because she is never going to like a lower standard of living. You might as well make YOU happy. Set your boundaries and hold to them.
Neighbors at the time were earning ~$35K between the two of them. Me, maybe ~$22K with over-time. Do you see how I felt like I didn't measure up.
No, I do not see. The math does not compute. If other couples brought home $35k, say $20k for the H and $15k for the W, then your $22k puts you right in the ballpark. How is it YOU did not measure up? What does it matter?
PS I am just trying to be helpful so don't take offence at anything I said.
Why do you worry so much about how others see you? Haven’t you been trapped in the pit with BB long enough?
Cobra This is SUCH co-dependent and shame based thinking. You think? Just kidding. I went through the co-dependency movement surge, led by a few women, at college. BB was working in a facility that had a 28-day Co-Dependency Treatment Program.
BB did not put any burden on you Yes she did in some ways by frequently talking about and wanting what the neighbors had, that we didn't.
Shame based, yes. I lived my life from the time I can remember to about the age of 21 in shame based religion and “You ought to” advice from people.
After I built the house in 1974, BB was pushing church attendance and I went along with the idea. We got into the role of a "Good church member" and I took on more duties and started giving a fair amount of money to support the church activities. Throw in some more shame based "if the Smiths are giving $XX, I guess I look cheap when I give $Xx.
You put it on yourself Yes I did. No argument there Cobra. I see that now. At the time I was trying to be what looked like normal.
there is always a better neighborhood to strive for True. I also moved up as far as I thought I could handle, I will label the neighborhood a 65%er. Not bad for someone that was used to the 30% areas most of his life. I knew I couldn't afford the upper crust neighborhoods.
You give away your power, then get resentful at her because you did what she asked. I see that now. At the time (1980'ish) I saw it was my job as a H and dad. Other people were doing the fair to good life and if they could do it, so could I, type of thinking.
If I could tie into Fran’s situation, this is where I went astray. Trying to do too much. I am not saying her H is trying to do X,Y or Z.
Also working in the auto industry with rising gas prices and having too much work at times and not enough at other times, working for two different business' that eventually closed and I stayed with them too long, the mental mind set was work when you can because next month there might only be enough work for half-time employment.
My pay was based on a low hourly rate and commission or commission only for the work completed. Any auto repairs that had to be re-done was not compensated/paid the second time.
BTW, did she want to work or did you want her to be a SAHM? [b] BB doesn’t like to work that much. I was OK with it at the time. I thought I could earn as much in a couple of hours at home in the evening as she would make working all day. I was used to the SAHM model.
[b] If at some point you decide the pain of working is now greater than the pain of her leaving, then cut back on the work. I have cut back. I use the working too much to explain one of the things that caused some of our R problems as in, this is how we got where we are today.
The other issue I see in your example is a total lack of boundaries. I see that too. I don’t know about total though. I see it as too wishy-washy, too flexible.
As long as she knows her complaints can tilt your choice, there is reason for her to complain…….. You are the one allowing her complaints to have an impact. If you do not give her that power, Doesn’t a spouse deserve some choices, consideration?
Let me say that IMHO, BB does have a right for her wants to be considered, but I think she makes known and presses for too many wants w/o thinking of my wishes and about the work to get where she thinks life would be better for her anyway. This seems a fairly simple problem to me. You further complicate it by throwing in your guilt. You want her to choose the lower standard of living and be content with it, even happy about it. BB will not do that, nor would anyone else. If you want BB to make this choice, then accept that she will be unhappy about it, but she will accept it and after a while she will adjust. But stop sabotaging yourself though your guilt and shame of BB’s unhappiness. That is her problem, not yours. That sums it up really well Cobra.
So which is going to be the less painful choice – your long hours at work or the shame and guilt you feel from BB? I cut back the hours. Tried spending the time with BB but haven’t made/reestablished a good connection that is lasting. Some here and there spurts, yes.
Stop throwing the sex issue into the mix because I am starting to think that is only a distraction. I know you want more sex, but I also see you trying to convince BB that if you worked less and settled for fewer things, you could make her happier by teaching her to value your love and commitment over material things. But those are the priorities of your values, not her. So stop trying to control her to adopt your values. It hasn’t worked yet and I doubt it ever will I also doubt it will.
. How is it YOU did not measure up? IRL I measured up cobra, but it wasn’t enough to avoid some of the problems we had. The ghost of those problems are with us today. I told BB what I felt I did wrong in the past, she said she made adjustments and that is how things are, so live with it. She lost much of her sexual desire in 1981. I worked a lot of hours. She turned her affection to her pets so she didn’t act on her lonely feelings and pursue an OM
Re to a comment I made to Fran: PS I am just trying to be helpful so don't take offence at anything I said. Cobra Why do you worry so much about how others see you? I imagine Fran’s situation/H is different than mine. I can give my experiences based on my POV. I can’t know what Fran’s H feels or why he acts.
I know her H working too much is a problem for Fran. I know he drinks, I didn’t. I know some other things are different about her H when compared to me.
The answer as to why I care is, I want to help and if what I post doesn’t help but is irritating to Fran, I want her to know before hand I have no ill intentions and I am mot trying to be callous. Sometimes a post can be written one way and read another way.
Back to what is and the now. I am applying verbal pressure to BB to seek some relief for her medical problems. I could list the problems but that might sound like I was putting BB down. The list is getting longer so I am less hopeful much will improve. Maybe I am looking at the of a sex life with her.
I just dug up some 25 year old tree roots and am planning on replace the original 12 X 12 deck and a 4 X 8 picture window. That will keep me busy for a while.
Lou, It didn't irrirate me at all, I would be more than happy if someone who has BTDT could talk to my H about working too much. I made a post which somehow got inserted above your recent ones, so scroll up about 4 posts and you'll see it.
Fran
if we can be sufficient to ourselves, we need fear no entangling webs Erica Jong
Lou, It didn't irrirate me at all, I would be more than happy if someone who has BTDT could talk to my H about working too much. I made a post which somehow got inserted above your recent ones, so scroll up about 4 posts and you'll see it.
Fran
if we can be sufficient to ourselves, we need fear no entangling webs Erica Jong
Fran It didn't irrirate me at all, Good. I can imagine you not being happy wth your H working as much as he does, but maybe he sees it as he has to work that much and not much to do with avoiding intimacy in his mind. I am not there so I don't know.
if someone who has BTDT could talk to my H about working too much I am willing to post my ideas if he will.
I made a post which somehow got inserted above your recent ones, so scroll up about 4 posts and you'll see it. I see a post from yesterday to which I replied.
Quote:
Fran Exactly! This is what my H does. He prefers to hand over decisions to me then blame me for being "overbearing" when something does not turn out to his liking. I don't think much about blaming BB for most of my over working, but I see where I have in the past.
a fix for a previous post of mine; (Maybe I am looking at the of a sex life with her.) to Maybe I am looking at almost the end of a sex life with her.
Cobra Stop worrying about getting validation from outsiders. That validation doesn’t mean squat. I am not "looking for" validation on the SSM forum but appreciate it when offered and am more importantly looking for what is considered the most correct way to do some things.
Some validation does mean squat Cobra.
Hearing most of my life that sex is an obligation for some women, then hearing don't apologize because you want sex, validates my belief that what I would like to have isn't abnormal or selfish.
Do you not think you deserve the things you ask for? If you do, why would you ever feel guilty that she has to undergo work and pain to do them for you? Because I consider the effort and distance someone goes through to do something I like and maybe they don't like.
The story of the egg or ham comes to mind. A chicken can give you an egg and live. The pig has to die for me to have ham. IOW, what does it cost the giver.
She can only come to the realization that she needs to change herself by reevaluating her world by herself. When your frustration rises and you distance, her stress rises too and she then approaches you. But you cave in and rescue her. So she never has to learn the hard lessons. She gets her soothing and reassurance and goes back to her old ways and the cycle starts over. I agree.
I think you fear her leaving you if she does this... It’s more like I fear screwing up something I/we should have been able to fix or manage better.
Many days I think if there were someone that would take care of BB better than me and make her happier than I do, I wouldn't have many thoughts about asking her to stay if she wanted to leave.
I took on the job of a H, life partner and friend. For a long time that job was rewarding. It took work but it was doable. Now there are fewer rewards and more disconnects on some days. Some days the effort/reward ratio is so far off/poor, I think I won’t be able to get what I want from the R and BB won't feel like she will get what she needs. Other times I see improvements.
If I put less effort into the R, then the effort/reward ratio is better for me but not what I would call a good H/W relationship.
Most likely, concern about failure is ahead of fear of BB leaving.
You have to decide what you want, whether you can hold onto your sense of guilt for asking for such things and whether you can get out of your own way. That sounds about right.
