IT'S HAPPENING ALL OVER AGAIN!!!!!!!!

[RGM]

ROOT,
Unfortunately W's had all of the above, (except A) that I know of: co-worker going through nasty D, 3 friends going through nasty D, friends telling her that she just has to take care of herself. It was kind of funny. W isolated herself from our friends. People she new who wouldn't support her, but she migrated to acquaintances that felt sorry for her. I honestly think W has had some real issues for a long time. Not that I didn't help our sitch any. As things have gone on and on, I think it became too much for her. I think w/ the passing of her F she realized she never really got over the passing of her M. W never really seemed to be that close w/ her B's. Most of her stories about growing up w/ her family involved how cruel her B's teased her. How her F was verbally and mentally abusive. W didn't have good relationships w/ other BF in HS or college. She was molested by a neighborhood boy when she was growing up. She was raped in HS. She more less supported herself for last 5 or 6 yrs. before we met. She's been alone or isolated her self for protection most of her life. She's said she has always felt like POLIANNA and always feels like she's trying to please everyone else. She wanted to M and have a F, but I don't think she ever realized just how much of a responsibility it was going to be. She wanted the fun, but not the work. As we've progressed through our M and R as the family has grown, the more responsibility required, or more diversification and attention required, the less she has been willing to accept. Whe W & I first married, things were great. Four yrs later, S8 was born. All of a sudden, I'm not that interesting anymore. I require too much time. S8 is the newest shinest thing. Five years later, S3 is born. I didn't even exist. But the really sad part was, she did the same to S8 that she did to me before. He was no longer the shiniest thing on showroom floor. All of her attention was/is to S3. This to the point that S8 has even commented that Mom doesn't pay as much attention to him as to S3. Before he was to young to really realize it or understand it. Now, he's old enough to comprehend it. Even more sad is I'm afraid it's also starting to happen w/ S3. Mommy's decided she's paid too much attention to everyone else, now she's going to be primary focus. The C has only re-enforced it. All she talks about now is how she wants to be by herself. She's constantly looking at travel/training brochures for her job now. She's going to X to train for this, and Y to train for this, and Z for something else and go back to school for her PhD. To W, this is not being self centered, this is what she's owed now.

[RGM]

25MLC,
That's my dilema too. I don't know if I can keep going through this. I keep telling myself it's all for my S's. If it were only me, I think I would have thrown in the towel last summer. I L my W dearly. So much so, it hurts to think about her being gone. But I can get over it. I can move on. I don't want to, but I can. I think about what the kids will feel like and the F being pulled apart and it tears me to pieces. I had to look in their eyes once before and tell them Mom and Dad were getting a D. I can't do that again. I can't put them through that pain w/o at least trying to stop it. I don't think kids can ever get over it. I don't agree w/ the philosophy that if everyone stays cordial and works on making sure the kids know their loved that they can get over it. I think it will always effect kids, some less than others. But I think in any loving F sitch, they're all effected adversely. Unfortunately, now that I actually understand where some of W new found philosphy is coming from and why, I don't know how patient and civil I will be this go around. It's something I'm definitely going to have work at. I hold only sliver a hope to stop it again.

[MariS]

RGM,

I completely empathize w/you.

Yes, I also agree that D affects children & I firmly believe in the unity of F. Otherwise, I (we LBSs) wouldn't be fighting so hard.

Like you, if child was not involved, I too would have through in the towel by now. YOU ARE NOT ALONE in your thoughts/feelings. These are normal for us. I am now starting to question what I am doing and if it IS the right thing to do or not.

<sigh>

Sending you PMA for today!

[runningoutoftime]

RGM,
That selfishness and "it's my time now" is typical of MLC.

One of my good friends going through it right now describes it like this: "In my 20's it was my marriage, in my 30's it was for my kids and school, and now that I'm 40 it's time for me." So.... this bright, educated, normally rational-minded woman divorced a relatively decent, hardworking, guy who is the father of her children, and spends her weekends looking for a "bad boy" with a Harley.

Yikes!!!!!

[RGM]

As I posted before, I talked w/ W's C and what a treat that was. Well I went ahead and told W I did so..Not much of a reaction from her. I told her I was finally starting to understand where she was coming from. Before I even said anything else, W replied," you don't C do you." Told W it's not that I don't like and I don't blame C for W's actions right now. But C needs to get a clue about telling people it's okay to better themselves by abandoning their responsibilities. She shouldn't be counseling people that if they don't like how their life has turned out b/c of their own decisions to just get up and walk out. After listening to C and her philosophy and seeing what W's approach, comments and actions have been that the C has done nothing but reinforce the behavior. C has convinced W it's ok to runaway from her responsibilty. I told W I never would have guessed that as much as she wanted to be a W and a M, that she would run away from things just b/c they got tough. Probably wasn't the thing to say, but I'm tired of W living in her own little dream world. She didn't say anymore to me. The next morning things were definitely tense. I didn't expect anything different. Later that day W had to bring S8 down to my office. She was actually friendly & acted as if she was still my W. If you'd taken a 15 min. picture you would have never known we're in the process of getting D. W has been better @ "as if" than I am. She just keeps going about like everything is normal.

That night when putting S's to bed, S8 was real sad. I walked in to his room and he was just laying on his bad. When I asked him what was wrong, he said M acts like she doesn't want me around as much as S3. W has always paid more attention to S3 since he was born. She will ignore S8 to play w/ S3. I passed on this conv. on to W. At first she got defensive, then thanked me for bringing it to her attention.

Yesterday W even called me. It's the first time in about a week that she called me @ work. Did so just to tell me she was waiting for S8 to get out of school so they could head to practice. Its really wierd. Most of the time she won't even speak time, whether she intiates it or in response to me. Every now and then she surprises me by doing something like this (calling me for no reason). Last night when W and S's got home from pratice S8 walks in the door crying. S8 said M had been yelling @ him and told him to be quiet when he was asking her a question. She's doing this more and more, like last summer. W doesn't see that she treats everyone like their an annoyance. After I got S8 calmed down, he asked me if I would talk to M. After the boys were in bed, I approached W and asked if we could talk. I told her S8 had asked me to talk w/ her. I was very calm & made sure I didn't come off as being her "parent". I told her I just wanted let her know how S8 was feling and what he had said. Right away she started playing the martyr roll. She'd have to change her behavior b/c she knew she was ruin S8 and how it was all her fault.. It doesn't make a diffence how I try talk w/ her , she either takes that route or says I'm being too critical of her. I can't win.

[Heywyre]

RGM - you can't win for trying can you?

I think your W has a lot more major problems than her C, her not being able to change etc. etc. etc. All I hear is a lot of excuses and I'm not buying it. She obviously goes to that C because she reinforces what your W wants to hear, which might not necessarily be right. However, in defense of the C, they are only hearing one side of the story also - who knows what your W has told them about you, and your family dynamics

I really don't think there is anything you can do to rectify this situation, not like it is now. Until your W seeks some SERIOUS medical attention it will be like trying to rationalize with a wild animal. There is no way your W is stable enough to be able to get through to her - they live in their own little world, oblivious to the reality that is really out there. I know, I had/have been living that life for the past 5-6 years. Thank goodness my H has finally got some medical attention, is on a pretty high dose of AD AND is seeing a C - both one-on-one and couples. This only happened AFTER he had a melt down. It took me 4 hours to calm him down and convince him to go to the hospital. It was only out of sheer exhaustion and me promising to let him drive to the city we were planning on moving to (some 3 hours away) that he agreed to go to the hospital. Thank goodness he didn't realize what a mess he was in plus I took away the vehicle keys so he couldn't drive. He was in NO condition at all to do that - especially at 2 o'clock in the morning.

It wasn't until my H finally had this melt down that he realized what a mess he was in, and its been almost a year since that time that he can finally say he's 80% back to "normal". He knows he still has a ways to go and we have a LOT still to work on the M and its going to take a lot of time but at least he is on stable ground.

I just tell you this because until your W comes to this conclusion herself, there really isn't much you can do - she has to come to the breaking point. Unfortunately, in her mind, the right decision is a D.

Please try to understand there is no rationalizing with them when they are like that. She is VERY sick - mentally, and needs a lot of help. It is very unfortunate that her C doesn't see that. I would be tempted to report them to whatever society or governing body controls their licensing.

[RGM]

Heywyre,
You are more than correct. The first thing that has to happen is W has to admit there is a problem w/ a solution other than D. I don't blame the C for all of this. I think W had started going this way too, before she started w/ C, but C has definitely reinforced her position. You are also very right in that there are always two sides to the story. That is one of the specific reasons I risked calling her C. At the same time, C has to be open to hearing both sides. She didn't really want to talk w/ me. More like she talked to me. I guess I can't really expect any different and probably would have/ should have expected C to support W. W is C's patient. I freely admit, I'm not a perfect husband. I should have been more supportive and more observant to the warning signs. There are things that came to light durning all of this that made me realize I should have been do things differently. That's why I started working on myself.

As for MC, I felt like MC had a schedule she was working from, whether it really fit us or not. I was more concerned about the general condition of what our R had turned into. W would bring up past b**ch list during a sessions. Things that had already been adressed. MC would concentrate on specific sitch (i.e.- W wanted me to do more house work. W felt she did more than half. OK, so I started do more of housework. Not a big deal. MC spend 20 or 30 mins in cpl sessions about making up a list of chores of house work and making sure it was 50/50. We were well past all that, or at least I thought we were.) I couldn't get W to forgive and couldn't get MC to understand it didn't make a difference what I did, said or didn't say. It didn't help. MC said she didn't want to seem like she was taking sides. Annyywaaay.

Of course there is also the point of view that I'm full of c@#p and a terrible H. I've put my side of the story up on BB and people have supported me or offered support and advise based on what I've posted. I guess it's no different than what C is doing for W.

As far as W getting medical treatment. It ain't gonna happen. W is flat out solid in her position, she is not D. Doesn't matter how someone tries to rationalize w/ her, especially me. She's not D, never was, except when she's around me. She took offense when I told MC I thought she never really got over postpartum from S8 and it's just kind of drug on and snowballed since. During one R talks last summer, W tells me she's just naturally a blue person. Says she's been that way for years. I still think this some of the stuff that goes back to problems W had w/ F, as well as losing M when a teen. But again, maybe I'm just full of it and looking for any justification as to why W wants out of M.

[Heywyre]

RGM - I don't think its any one particular thing that creates what we are today. A BIG portion of who we are stems from childhood, there is no doubt about that. However, how we deal with those childhood experiences and process them in our adult life is where most of us screw up big time

For instance, if you are a boy and were physically abused by say your father when you were a kid and as you got older you never confronted your father about how it made you feel, chances are you will become the abuser

Why? Well, you are still carrying around that hurt, pain and bitterness inside. But you have no way to release it other than to confront, or to become the person who abused. As strange as that might seem, it happens ALL THE TIME. How often have we heard about kids that come from alcoholic parents and swear they will NEVER EVER be like them - just to end up either being exactly like them or marrying someone exactly like them - it happens all the time

How often do we hear about a wife beater whose kid grows up to be a wife beater - why? It's what they know. They might not like it but its familiar and its easier to fall into the trap of familiar than to make the effort to change things.

My H (thank goodness) has for the most part, stopped saying "that's just the way I am" because that's a cop-out, an excuse, whatever you want to call it. People change all the time, they do things they want to do (i.e. lose weight, go to the gym, change jobs etc.) but when it comes time to making changes that aren't all that easy - i.e. changing your behaviour - we get "that's just the way I am" and its a coward's way of making excuses. Our C has confronted H so many times when he says he can't change and told him that he knows it won't be easy but its an excuse, nothing less.

It is going to take some major effort on your W's part but if she doesn't recognize that there is a problem, she is very unlikely going to agree she needs help to change it

[runningoutoftime]

All you can do is try to be her friend, listen to her and agree with every crazy thing she says even if you think she's completely insane. By just being her friend and a support system she will feel more comfortable with you and may even eventually rely on you. Let her figure out the insane stuff on her own. Don't try to correct anything. Just be her friend and be there for this kids wherever she's lacking. That's really all you can do.

[RGM]

Heywyre & ROOT,

Your points are well taken. Unfortunately, W is not in the mindset to try to forgive or change. I found a letter from a mutual friend of W and mine. Addressed to both so I read it. Wasn't snooping. The letter was apparently in response to something W wrote to friend. It appears W has completely reversed rolls of actions as she descibes to outsiders. That she is the victim, the sacrificor, the one wronged. Every since our last MC appt. there has been little to no comm. that was actually productive or meaningful. I just wait for the inevitable day when she tells me she's filed. I e-mailed her this am w/ a summary of how morning went w/ S8. Tryig to start some for of comm. I get back,

. . . I have not been treating him like the wonderful blessing he is to me. I need to let hime be a big kid, not nag so much.

She thinks all she is doing is nagging him. She doesn't evening realize she's ignoring him. It's her owne little world, as you said.