I'm not sure Cemar is getting this but maybe some others will. I know people had issues with what I said before about how Cemars wife may "bring herself to have sex with him" and then feel resentful about it, but what you are talking about now is exactly what I meant.
Many women are raised to believe that men who want sex with them regardless of the fact that there is no "intimacy" (or emotional connection) beforehand are only using them and if they succumb to this it is something to be ashamed of. So....why would, or should, that change just because you are married to the guy? It is not about a wife refusing to have sex with her hubby (at least not always). It is about the struggle going on in the woman's mind about whether she is supposed to give up her self-esteem, self-respect and the standards she grew up with...give up her Self... in order to make her husband happy. And men like Cemar expect her to do it with no effort on his part to build that EC first. That is a very difficult place to be. It builds major resentment.
Not really sure what the answer is to this kind of standoff but I don't think it is that the woman gives up on her values. I think a lot of guys don't understand that a woman is told that it is MORALLY wrong to have sex without "meaning" and EC. That's the difference between good girls and slutty girls. There needs to be major trust and a woman needs to know she is respected in all aspects of the marriage and then she may feel able to be more open or "free" with the sexual aspect of the marriage. At least that's how it worked for me.
The voyage of discovery is not in seeking new landscapes but in having new eyes.
--Marcel Proust
I'm not sure Cemar is getting this but maybe some others will. I know people had issues with what I said before about how Cemars wife may "bring herself to have sex with him" and then feel resentful about it, but what you are talking about now is exactly what I meant.
Many women are raised to believe that men who want sex with them regardless of the fact that there is no "intimacy" (or emotional connection) beforehand are only using them and if they succumb to this it is something to be ashamed of. So....why would, or should, that change just because you are married to the guy? It is not about a wife refusing to have sex with her hubby (at least not always). It is about the struggle going on in the woman's mind about whether she is supposed to give up her self-esteem, self-respect and the standards she grew up with...give up her Self... in order to make her husband happy. And men like Cemar expect her to do it with no effort on his part to build that EC first. That is a very difficult place to be. It builds major resentment.
Exactly... feeling empty and used comes out of s given to please even though unhappiness and issues exist that keep that marriage tense. And that is what happens here with me. I give in and feel empty and then i am angry and resentful. Angry that I give in and resentful to him because if I don't then the whole atmosphere at home for my kids is short fused and negative. And the thing is...I truly think if we both read the LL book that could be a pivotal part of improving our marriage. He will be gone for a few days...perfect time for me to read it.
It is interesting to note that the reverse can be true as well. When my W "just helps me" I do not end the experience feeling satisfied at all. In fact I do feel resentful, used, etc. all the things that you mention that many women are raised to believe if they just give it up to a man. I think the use of "crap sex" is universally an EC buster, whether you are the one being asked to give it or the one being asked to receive it.
Chrome
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
I do not end the experience feeling satisfied at all. I think the use of "crap sex" is universally an EC buster, whether you are the one being asked to give it or the one being asked to receive it.
Chrome
See then why not work on the other issues that led to the loss of the EC. I think the key is to work on the relationship and then the sexual relationship evolves naturally and passionately. That is if the reason for the lack of s is due to issues in the marriage. If the w just has ld...then that is when you need to delve deeper as to why she is ld. Maybe she is unhappy with her figure or maybe it was how she was raised...to think s is dirty. But to be honest, in my situation, i am hd except with my H I am not. Only because we have issues that need to be worked on and resolved. And until we really sit down and talk about the things that are occuring in our daily lives that seem to build conflict and isolation...the ec and s will not be able to develop or come back. Right now we live like roommates...raising our kids. Although I know he thinks we are "better" and doing fine. His laidback personality and my fear of causing tension at home...I guess.
Quote: --------------------------------------------------- I think the key is to work on the relationship and then the sexual relationship evolves naturally and passionately. ---------------------------------------------------
I think you will find that you have to do both, work on the relationship and have sex, at the same time.
Otherwise, define precisely, the state of the relationship before you are going to find yourself available to your spouse again.
From experience, I can tell you that you will only discover certain aspects of your relationship that needs attention, from having sex with your spouse. The sex is not a "standalone". You don't do everything else first, then the sex. The sex is integral to the process.
All the best, -NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
runner26.2,,,I'm curious,,what kind of business do you & your H own? My H owns his own travel agency and one of the things that bothers me the most is that he is always traveling out of town & the country,,I know its' good for his business but i've always wanted to be part of it and as time goes on the more trips he takes w/o me!
Kim
M44H44 M18 T22 Sep7yrs-3/10 S23,22,15,11 10/07I file 2/08D postponed by H 2/09D on 3/09H moves in 8/09I kick H out 9/09H-PA 10/09-2/10mediate 3/10OW discoved 5/10H&OW engaged 7/10DDay w/atty
you are right...and as you work towards the issues...i have seen the sexual relationship return. I don't hold out so to speak....but if the mood is there...ie: no tension, getting along, enjoying each other...then yes the s part is natural. But if there has been tension and conflict...s is not going to happen...intimacy and s go hand in hand i think for a good s relationship. It is okay to have the just have sex once in awhile...but not all the time when issues exist.
My spouse is in his sales business...and he travels frequently while i raise the kids...and i think a big part of my problem is that when i worked there was recognition and when i am at home...the recognition is truly in the reflection of my kids. Gratifying to be home with the kids....but invisible to the world at times. No adult time really and feeling isolated. It isn't much fun. But I wouldn't go back to work because I know that I would rather raise my kids. I need to find a balance.
I feel for you runner, and I think balance it definately part of the equation. I was a SAHM for 12 years and was very isolated at times. I finally started my own business doing web design but much of the work was done online or on the phone with clients I had overseas from before we moved back to the states. I was busier but still isolated. My ex thought that going to the grocery store or the mall with the kids should have filled my need to get out of the house but as you probably know...it's not even close.
I will add that Nop has a good point. I think sometimes women don't know how to accept when men show that they are trying. If it's not 100% then the sex can still feel awkward and somewhat empty so they shy away from it. For me, I had to really flip a switch in my head and make a determined choice to be more sexual. Of course with ex it was never enough but I did get to a point where I just told myself that this is my husband and I love him and I want to do my best to make him feel loved. The way he needed to feel loved was with sex. So we had sex.
I also took the initiative outside the bedroom to ask for things that I needed. It helped squash the resentment. For example, he would spend all night on the computer sometimes while I was sitting in the same room. He thought we were together but I felt lonely. I'd ask him to come and sit by me on the couch and to give me a head rub (cuz I luuuuuvvvv head rubs and they make me relaxed.) The benefit was two-fold. He felt like I wanted/needed him cuz I was asking him to be near me, and I felt like he was willing to make an effort and do the head rub. We would pop in a movie and I would lay in his lap and he would rub my head. He was willing to do that without sex as a payoff and I appreciated that. In turn, it made me feel closer to him and many times, things would go further. I also found it REALLY hard to initiate with him so I asked him if we could come up with a clear sign for me to let him know that I was open to sex because he would sometimes miss my cues. He said "Just grab my d!ck." LOL! Smart azz!
Chrome, I was thinking about your sitch too and your wife suggesting the bj and hj to take care of you. I think she may be going through this internal struggle that I mentioned before but I think she truly does want to do something "for" you. I know that what she is offering is not 100% what you want but maybe you can see it through different eyes. What if instead of looking at it as crap sex, you could look at it as a step toward regaining some closeness with you. It sounded like she is trying to take a step closer. Just my opinion but maybe if you told her that it makes you feel loved that she wants to be so close to you, maybe that would help both of you see a difference in your sitch.
I wanted to ask too, is it really crap sex? I mean does it seem like she would rather be anywhere else doing anything else? Is that just how you are interpreting it because she doesn't want it in the same way you do? Does she have an issue with your EA? Does she know about it? Sorry if you've been over this already. I've been away from the BB for awhile and haven't caught up on everyone yet.
Runner, raising kids can be the most gratifying and thankless job there is. It is grunt work. It is oftentimes giving up yourself. It took me waaaaaaaayyyyy too long to realize that kids need to fit into YOUR life. You don't need to stop everything and cater to your kids. Let them know who you are. Keep some hobbies and share with them. Take some time to yourself to grow, learn, whatever sparks your passion outside of being a mom and wife. It can help, especially if your H is supportive of it.
Hang in there!
Bear
The voyage of discovery is not in seeking new landscapes but in having new eyes.
--Marcel Proust
As always you make good points. I do plan on going with the flow, letting her give what she feels she can give at this time, but try to let her know in as loving a way as possible that things need to move forward at some point. I think it is both possible and desirable for us to have a SL that we both can enjoy at every level, from fun, to romantic, to hot, to loving, to quickies, to all night long. We have never been there in our M, so I'm sure she has doubts and fears. But I have seen the occasional glimpse of her sexuality, so I know it can come out if she decides to let it.
Don't get me wrong, its not that I don't appreciate that when she is tired after a long day, she is willing to make an effort to satisfy me. Its just there isn't that extra bit that makes it a loving, EC-building act. Remember, after the kids are in bed, after she has had her alone time (which can go well after midnight), after she has gotten ready for bed, then she will lie there mostly motionless and do what she knows will bring me to an O. I don't say that to bash her, only to give the correct impression and explain why it doesn't come across as loving. On several occasions she has fallen asleep in the process. There is no heat, no passion for pleasuring me, no experimentation. I know this may sound whiny, but I don't think it is asking too much. Remember, she chooses to place sex as the last thing in the day after all else is done, and after she has done things that will cause her to get less sleep than is optimal, which results in her being tired all the time and thus not really into it. And because she is tired all the time, she is not in the mood for pleasure herself. Although I will admit, when she does have her horny night every now and then, it doesn't matter if it is 3 AM and we've had a long day.
So despite the fact that yes she is offering what she feels she can, it comes across as an afterthought. Like the stereotypical H who forgets the anniversary and asks the W to keep dinner in the oven a little longer while he runs to Wal-mart. To answer your question, yes it does feel like she would rather be doing other things while it is happening. As far as the EA, it could be an issue, but this is the way our SL has been for pretty much the entire marriage, with the exception of the time when she wanted to get pregnant, and then it occured according to the formula best guaranteed for conception.
Again, I know this may come across as W-bashing but it is not intended to be. I realize that I allowed our SL to be this way for 9 years. I didn't know any better, and she didn't either. The difference is now I do, and I need things to change.
Chrome
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
