The darkness does not endure!

[Concerned_Listener]

One thing I do know is that he hates confrontation, or discussing anything negative - he would far rather try and bury any issues, and pretend it didn't happen, and move on from there. However, an A is something I cannot just overlook, and I need to see something constructive from him that tells me he is plugging into this M, and making an effort to be trustworthy. I just see the same avoidance behaviour, and I am just not going to tolerate it this time. He must either step up to the plate or we leave the field.

However, he stopped wanting to ML when I asked him if we could have gentler, more romantic, and intimate ML on occasion. And, that is what hurts, and why I stopped initiating.

Being,
Your post gives me a better perspective on your situation. There are many more positives than what's been alluded to in your prior posts. However, this is a SSM, and headed for a D IMO, if this area doesn't improve.

I'm concerned that he doesn't accept your invitation to have a gentler, more romantic type of ML. Why wouldn't he want to make his W happy sexually? I think there are one of two reasons--he's being passive-aggressive, or he's emotionally disconnected from the M (except on a platonic level). It's possible he's avoidant around the sexual area, but this would imply he wants to have sex, but there are performance issues, or fear of rejection.

I wonder if he has a sex drive, and masturbates or has a LD? Does he look at other woman? Does he have erections?

Does he seem depressed? Is life a joy for him or full of problems? Does he have enough enjoyable activities in his week to keep him playful and vital, or too much time spent with responsibilities? Does he connect well to other people? Does he harbor anger and resentment, or tranform negative emotions into something more positive? What does he need to work on to be a happier person?

I'm concerned about this avoidant pattern of his. Has this been a long-standing problem? Does he acknowledge this as a problem? Has he made any progress with this over the years?

There's a book that I've read called, "Changing for Good," by James Prochaska. It's about the stages of change regarding any type of behavior that is difficult to change--smoking, drinking, overeating, etc.. You can read the book, and evaluate what stage of change regarding his avoidant behavior is. The book will then guide you on what you can do to facilitate him to the next stage. My guess is you will be asked to consider if you're enabling him or appropriately holding him accountable.

My guess is a "wait-and-see" approach isn't the best way to address the problems you're describing. It serves to reinforce his maladaptive behaviors. I think he will have to be in a position where he will be forced to make a choice to change his patterns or face consequences he cannot live with. He seems to be willing to accept the status quo, and is too entrenched in his patterns to change on his own initiative.

CL





CL

[BeingMe]

Hi CL!

I think you are right. This has been a lifelong attitude of his. I don't know if he masturbates, or is LD (he has always been very much HD), and have no idea if he gets erections (we have only ML once this year, that I can remember). I have not noticed him looking at other women. He doesn't appear to be depressed, but is very worried about our D19. He will quite happily chat with me about his day at work, or other stuff, or listen to me chat. He is busy renovating our house, and is very satisfied with what he has accomplished, so far. He does have a passion in his new home business, which keeps him pretty busy (another avoidance tactic since it wasn't necessary for him to start this business now, when we need to be working on our M, although I have no problem with his having this for himself) - he imports vintage scooters, and also retro helmets, and he just loves puttering around in the garage. We do have a pretty good friendship, but it's very much on the surface, I feel. He may have another perspective.

Anyway, let me give some background to our M - some I have already told, but some I have never told anyone - ever. Be warned! This is really personal stuff, and my stomach has butterflies just thinking about typing it out.

When we were first married, we seldom fought, so his conflict avoidance didn't bother me. But, then we went through a stage over several years, where he was addicted to porn. I would discover it, demand that he get rid of it, he would beg forgiveness, would stay away from it for awhile, then go back to it in secrecy as usual. The last time it happened, I blew up (this was about 8 years ago). I told him that unless he got professional help, I would no longer want to be married to him, since he had no regard to how his viewing porno affected me (and, BTW, porn is totally against the teachings of our church, which he professed a belief in, and still does. Cheating is also against the teachings of our church. So, one can see that even a strong belief in his church doesn't stop him from doing what he is tempted to do - perhaps the lack of boundaries that his father should've enforced?). I know that I reacted very badly - was not calm, but shouting and crying. I was really, really angry - slowly, I started having anger issues that I hadn't had since before our M (I had anger problems due to various events in my life, such as losing my parents when I was 16 and 21, being dated raped when still a virgin - it took me a long time to get over that, losing twin baby boys at 5 months pregnant in my first very abusive M, physically and emotionally. I thought I had overcome it all, when I met and married my H). I feel badly about reacting so angrily (and no longer have those anger issues anymore since going into C for it again), but this happened when we were living in a new country, and new city, he was travelling away from home with work, so I only saw him on weekends (and he has the audacity to use some of that precious time with his family to view porn). I didn't know anyone, didn't know who to turn to, had four children to care for, couldn't return to our home country which is dangerous, and I just went ballistic (no excuses, just an explanation at how stressed I was at that time). Something inside me died - I think it was trust.

Anyway, he did go into counselling, and a lot of stuff came to the surface. Things he had bottled up, from his childhood. His mother left his father when he was away on a camp, so he came home, and she was gone (she then left the country with her OM and went to live in Germany for a couple of years). His father is a rather unaffectionate man, and didn't place any boundaries on his two sons left at home with him, so had no clue what was going on - they would have parties with drinking at a very young age - I am surprised he managed to finish school, with really good marks, and is such a good dad himself (his father was also a serial cheater, and even after he married his second wife had many affairs - just the way he is, I guess, although he is in his seventies now, and his second W has stood by him regardless - she is a born again Christian).

During this traumatic time, my H was sexually abused and introduced to porn by a man who rented an apartment on their property. This was, I believe, between the ages of 12 and 14/15 (I think it started soon after his mother left, which was when he was 12). My H is not gay or very extreme, but rather likes straight sex like in the porn movies (by this I mean, emotionless, no words of affection, very little foreplay, just S), which I do not like, in that I feel rather dirty, even while I am aroused by it (very conflicted). I think this is what led to my LD. At one time, I would insist on a massage, at the very least, so that I felt some emotional connection before ML. Anyway, the C declared him cured of his addiction to porn, spoke to me at length about his childhood, and I thought and hoped that the worse was behind us. I was shocked by what the C told me, but I tried to understand, was empathetic, and cry for the child he was (I became extremely protective of my children on hearing how easy it was for someone to take advantage), but my H is an adult now, and is responsible for his actions now, and how they affect not only his own life, but mine and our children's.

Gosh! This is the first time I have ever told anyone his secret (the abuse, I mean). I feel like I am betraying his trust, but I know that this forum has some anonymity, so it's not like he'll know - I guess. I just don't know what else to do.

CL, I think you are right with regard to his not having any real consequences for his behaviour - now or ever. I always end up forgiving him, and things would be fine for awhile. I have never left, so all he does is weather the storm, and he knows that, ultimately, I will forgive - not forget maybe, but I do forgive. However, I am getting to a point now, that I will not be able to forgive that easily. I am thinking it may be time to follow through, and leave. It's been too many years of total disregard for my feelings, to the point that I went through periods of extreme self hate, thinking I was not worthy of being cared for, that I was lower than any porn 'star' prostituting herself on the screen - my self esteem has been very low. I can't blame my H for that. I allowed myself to be treated with disrespect - yes, it was because I loved him, and cared about him, but that is no excuse. I think, as you say CL, I have been enabling him, and that has got to stop. I just don't know how to do that, except to leave the M. However, this will be so sad for my D14, who loves her dad, and went through so much trauma during the time of his A. I just don't know if I can put her through that again. My D19 is still traumatized by the whole A (seemed to affect her the most), and felt herself betrayed by her father - I think this is why she has attached herself to a much older man, and is now pregnant. There has been so much fall-out from it all, and by my staying, I feel that I either allowed some stability or made things worse by perhaps not letting my girls see that you don't allow your H to treat you with such disrespect, and continue lying.

So, I come to another problem now - my feelings of being trapped. I feel I have no power over my own life. This is probably why I have been studying, and GAL, to feel I have something that is mine alone. I have worked so hard to regain my own self esteem, and am so happy with the person I am now, after all these years. I don't want to throw that away.

I want to emphasize that not all of my M was bad. There have been whole bunches of years where we were very happy. We did a lot as a family - going on trips, doing stuff together, even leaving our home country and facing a new life in our new country together. There are just those issues that have just never been resolved between my H and I, because of his avoidance tactics, and I think this has trickled into our children's lives, and left a certain amount of toxicity. All I can say is that I did what I thought best at any given time, and he probably did too. I felt my H was a good man at his core, that had been dealt a bad hand as far as his childhood went, and was worth giving the chances I gave him. I am generally a positive person, and believe the good in people. I am somewhat cynical now, since the A, but am still hopeful about life. I am sure this doesn't come across here, since I am writing about very painful things in my life. I do not define myself by the worse that has happened, thankfully, and I do not obsess about it all. Once a day, I give it thought then get on with my day, and just recently have been posting about it again. Thank goodness, this forum gives one an outlet to vent, and put ones thoughts into writing and maybe get some clarity.

If you got this far, then thanks for reading my journalling and venting. I am trying to make sense of it all. I went to IC soon after we arrived here 18 months ago, and it really helped me a lot. However, it still doesn't help my H resolve his own issues. I just don't know what to do - it seems to come down to stay or leave, no in-between solution. I just wish that he could see what his actions (or lack of action) are doing to me, and take me seriously, but I don't think he can .... see, that is. He has these blinders on, and I don't know how to get them off.

And, once again, we are in a new city, where I don't know anyone, and don't want to burden my friends or family in our old city, or back in our home country with my problems. And, once again, he will be travelling away from home, being only here on weekends. I am not sure if that will be a good thing or not. At least, I have just the two children at home, and my son is 19 (so, an adult), and my D14 is a pretty responsible kid who rarely gives us any problems, but she is at a sensitive age.

Anyway, that's more or less everything. Take care, y'all.

[Concerned_Listener]

Being,
This is a lot of information to digest regarding your H's history. It probably explains most of his issues, but ultimately it doesn't matter. He has to take responsibility for his intimacy and trust issues. He has an opportunity to work-thru these issues in the M, but is letting opportunity pass him by.

I'm curious about the impact the A had on your M. I've been reading that a couple has to incorporate the lessons of the affair into their M. There has to be a discussion around it in a constructive way. One opinion is that an affair allows a person to experience life in a larger way, to experience a role, or aspect of themselves, that wasn't being experienced in their life or M. I wonder what that was for your H?

A key question is, how did the affair make your H feel. What did your H need to do differently, or what patterns needed to change in the M, so that he could experience the evolved identity?

Did your H have an awakening? Was he able to articulate what he learned from the A? Was he able to figure-out what needed to change in his life or M to so that he could evolve into something better? Did you two wrestle with, and learn from the affair, and incorporate the lessons into your M, or did opportunity pass you two by, and you returned to old patterns?

CL

[BeingMe]

It is not only my H's history, but mine too. I think you are right in one regard ... he has not learned from the A. He wrote the OW a letter basically telling her that he couldn't do this to his family anymore, and that it was over between them. There was no "I love my wife", so I feel he didn't come back for me, specifically, but for the family as a whole. He doesn't like discussing the A, and has only said that he was confused, that she made him feel good, that he had gone crazy, but now he's back and is sorry for the pain he caused. All good and well, but he has not done anything to rectify that pain, and restore my faith and trust in him. There has been no wrestling with the problems the A caused, no awakening that I am aware of, or any major epiphanies.

I don't think he fears losing me, because I have never left. My fault. He 'weathers the storm', and does 'damage control', and usually comes out of it unchanged, and unwilling to change. I am not perfect, by any means, but this A has really awakened my awareness of where I could've done better as a wife (and even as a mother), and forced me to face my own inner fears and demons, and I have truly tried to change. At other times, I would've glossed over my mistakes, and not changed one bit, and definitely would not have said sorry - I, of course, was always 'right', and I was also a fool. I have profusely apologized to my H for my part in all of this. I know that I have done a lot of work on myself this time. I am ashamed of my part in the disconnection in my M that caused my H to feel he needed to go outside of the M to find emotional fulfilment.

'Eh! Enough of my problems. I know I have some major decisions to make, and I am going to spend the next week really thinking about what to do, and how to get my H to see how serious I am.

Thanks again, CL, for your input and feedback - you have given me a lot to think about. I am sorry that you had to read through my long, painful, saga. Sometimes, I feel I am living someone else's life, because I did push a lot of stuff down, and numbed myself to the pain, and this A really, really forced me to face a lot of issues I thought I had dealt with, but really hadn't.

So, I am thankful to the A for that, if for nothing else.

[Concerned_Listener]

I don't think he fears losing me, because I have never left. My fault. He 'weathers the storm', and does 'damage control', and usually comes out of it unchanged, and unwilling to change.:/

Being,
I wonder if part of the dynamics in a happy M, is that you have two happy, confident people who are comfortable with their personal power, and have a low tolerance for mistreatment. Power is part of the equation, but used in a healthy way.

We hold ourselves to a higher standard with people we fear and respect, because we know they are comfortable in using their power as needed. They won't compromise their standards for you.

My guess is that you have not been comfortable exercising your power of self-expression, assertiveness, and holding your H accountable, over the years. You have made great strides in GAL, and participating in activities that bring you joy. However, I wonder if increasing your personal power has been a struggle for you, and this has been your area of avoidance?

My hope is as you muster the courage to hold your H accountable for his avoidance, that you can find strategies besides threatening a D. Maybe he needs to sleep in the guest room. Maybe you need to cut back on time spent with him. Maybe an ultimatum is your last resort.

Good luck.

CL

[Phoenix_spark]

I too think that perhaps there really wasn't a true "repentance" in my sitch also. Perhaps avoidance is what has gotten me where I am too, but I am being more pro-active in addressing that. As we were counseled recently, I am going to take things to someone who can counsel me on how better to progress and perhaps an outside entity who can enforce some "repentance/remorse". Not that I'm trying to put a millstone around W neck. I feel that perhaps our last time through this, this aspect was not properly handled, therefore we're back in the same boat again.

As things are "thawing", I find that I am starting to feel more love again, which I wasn't sure I would re-find. The longer this drew out the more annoyed I found myself. When W made what looked like pro-active steps, I find the love rebuilding. Perhaps, if possible, ask H what he is doing to rebuild. If he is unsure, lovingly let him know what you are looking for, how he could do it. Let him see that it doesn't have to be a difficult path, but one that must be traveled. Maybe gentle nudges and not whacks with the baseball bat might have more of the desired response. However, you might have to "keep hitting the flippers" to give him the right amount of nudging.

Somehow I have the feeling you will figure out some way to make this R of yours move in the right direction, it's just a matter of figuring out how. Hang in there and my prayers are with you.

[BeingMe]

Journalling, and just trying to make sense of it all ......

Well, I think I am done with this M. My H just doesn't want to see or hear me, figuratively speaking. I am excluded from financial decisions (even tax stuff - I just have to sign not knowing what the heck is going on). He starts things that takes up his time away from fixing our M. We had a huge fight today, and I heard a lot of stuff coming out, that he had been hiding (and failed to talk to me about ... once again, just avoiding issues, and problems) - resentment, is definitely one of those things. I am tired of trying to be gentle with him, trying to communicate in as non-confrontational way possible, trying to support, give him time to earn my trust back, forgive, ignore all the pain I am in ... all this while trying so hard to GAL, and work on me. He made me feel like I was a burden, that I was a nag (which I have never been in our M - he tends to be the nagger, and he knows it), like he is the one doing everything to make me happy and I was ungrateful, unsupportive, and so on. I didn't know I had to be grateful for my H cheating on me, and my giving him more than the last chance to make things right. Wow! I must be the worst W on the planet.

I am done! I have given him every opportunity to help me work on this M. I have nothing more to give. In the end, his lack of plugging into the M, and really working on our issues, has made me feel like I am a nothing to him. I have no worth, no influence, just nothing I have gets him to do what is needed. I am not sympathetic enough, not sexy enough, not kind enough, not supportive enough, or trusting enough, or anything. Maybe he should've gone to the OW. I don't know, I just don't care anymore. I just want to get on with my own life, where I can control my own destiny.

I just can't do this anymore. I am not going to go through days of crying again, although just spent the morning doing so. No! No more! I feel like I am going crazy, and I was stupid enough to have come here with him, where I have no friends or family, or any real support where I can go and just talk, and get away from it all. Thank goodness for this forum!

I am sorry - I know I sound so pathetic, and so sorry for myself. At the moment, I do feel somewhat sorry for myself, to be honest. I feel I really gave it the best shot I knew how, but it just isn't working, and I am not martyr material, and I am no longer going to suck it up, and try and make it work, while being absolutely miserable. He's going to be travelling soon for work, so I told him, then he doesn't need to come home on weekends. He can get himself some OW, and maybe she can make him happy, because clearly he can't do it for himself, and I sure can't either. I cry mainly for my D14, and my other children. I never wanted them to come from a broken home, but I just don't know what more to do, other than to just take whatever he gives, and ignore my own needs. That has worked for me, in the short term, but one can only ignore yourself for so long, before you get ill, or lose yourself completely.

Sorry, also for the negative post. I wish this DB had been a complete success, but once in piecing, the couple, IMHO, has to get to a point where they are both working on the M. And, there has to be open and honest communication, otherwise, what's the point.

Take care, and hope y'all are having a much better day than me.

[Phoenix_spark]

I hear what your saying. Sometimes you wonder if they will ever get it. How approachable is your B? How has he been involved so far? I find myself, even though things seem to be improving, wondering why I want to risk the same problem again. Like you, even though W is starting to change, she hasn't made the effort to convince me that it won't happen again. So even though we seem to be headed in a better direction, I'm not sure if I'm convinced.

I've decided I better go talk to the B, hopefully either he or a C will help me get past this stumbling block. Perhaps what I'm saying is maybe there needs to be a third party involved, that will drive some positive change. That's the path I'm leaning towards.

[BeingMe]

We have a pretty good B, but we are somewhat new to the ward, so not sure about approaching him. I do agree that a third party is needed, but I'm afraid my H will have to be proactive in doing something. I am too disheartened to even try. I don't think he cares enough to bother either, besides which he won't be home during the week, so that just leaves the weekends, if he even bothers coming home then. He came home last night and acted as if nothing happened. He can't even come to me and try and talk about it, out of his own, without my bringing it up first. I told him this morning, when he wanted to kiss me good-bye, not to bother, and he gave a big sigh, as if to say, "here we go again, BM is acting up again!"

I just don't think I have it in me to try anymore. I am tired! Sure hope things work out for you, Phoenix.

[Concerned_Listener]

I just want to get on with my own life, where I can control my own destiny.

No! No more! I feel like I am going crazy, and I was stupid enough to have come here with him, where I have no friends or family, or any real support where I can go and just talk, and get away from it all. Thank goodness for this forum!


Sorry, also for the negative post. I wish this DB had been a complete success, but once in piecing, the couple, IMHO, has to get to a point where they are both working on the M. And, there has to be open and honest communication, otherwise, what's the point.

Being,
It doesn't sound like your M has been in Piecing for a long time, if ever. You've been ready to work on the M, and your H has not. He has returned to his old patterns of relating to you, and the world.

Therefore, you need to lower your expectations of him and revise your DB strategy to reflect where the R is at. I think he needs to feel the consequences of his selfishness, complacency, and rigidity. He needs to see you moving-on. I don't think he respects you or senses that you have the courage to do so. He's counting on you to be basically the same--loyal to the end.

I'm not saying you need to give an ultimatum--though it can be considered. I think you've made some great progress with GAL, and improving your connection to the world. You haven't experimented with (that I'm aware of), the LRT to the extent that you're creating enough distance in the R.

You were hoping that improving your PMA and maintaining a positive connection would be enough to change the R. This has not worked.

He needs to see increased distance in the R, to the extent that he can see that you're emotionally detached. This will hopefully scare him enough to change. The balance of power in your R needs to change, so that it tips more in your direction.

A respite or vacation may also be in order. Any future decisons need to be made when you're in a position of strength and wellness, not frustration.

CL