The darkness does not endure!

[BeingMe]

Journalling ....

So, we had our talk, and I tried to make it as clear as possible, where I stand on our R. I still need for him to make a much better effort at righting the wrongs (and he knows exactly what I mean). I asked why he never comes to me, and checks how things are going, and he used his usual excuse of not liking confrontation. That excuse is wearing somewhat thin. I told him when last did he see me get angry, that he should be afraid to talk to me about us. He continually tells me he is sorry for what he has done, and I continually tell him that I know, but I want to see some action that will prove it.

Ultimately, I told him that I have no intention of leaving right now, but a time will come when he will have left things too late, and that this is a pre-warning. I am not going to wait around forever, having my needs totally ignored, while he happily does what he wants (as long as I toe the line). I told him that if he has a problem where ML is concerned, then he should seek help, or if he feels that he doesn't love me, and just wants our M for the sake of the children, then he must let me know. At least, it will give me the opportunity to move on.

Quite honestly, I am fed up at the moment. I tried so hard to win him back (and succeeded). No stone was unturned in my quest to right what I had made wrong in our M. I made so many changes within myself, and learned so much about myself. I am so much stronger for it. But, he doesn't do anything to make amends for what he did. I had my faults, but I never went outside the M to find an answer to my unhappiness. I would rather be alone and happy, at this point, then with someone who is lukewarm about our R, because in the end, that would make me resentful. Sometimes, I wonder what I won back.

Ah well, I will soldier on and deal with whatever happens, as and when it occurs. Not much else I can do. In the meantime, I will continue with my GAL goals.

[Phoenix_spark]

Time to get out and GAL more. You need the uplift and if you want to be less of a doormat, get out from under foot. You need the boost. Hopefully the discussion has sunk in this time.

[Heywyre]

Ultimately, I told him that I have no intention of leaving right now, but a time will come when he will have left things too late, and that this is a pre-warning.

Take heed to what COG (the DB'ing master) told me: threats DON'T work. It is alright to set boundaries, it is alright to tell him what your needs are but when those ultimatums come you can rest assure they will put their guard up every single time, trust me, I know. And, when they do, you won't be able to get through no matter what your ammunition is. It just doesn't work

[BeingMe]

I would agree with you about ultimatums, Heywyre. I don't feel I gave him an ultimatum, although it may seem so from my posting. My intention was not to force him to do anything. At this point, the idea of being on my own is becoming very attractive. I am at the end of my tether. I was ready to leave 2 years ago, and he suckered me back in with promises (unfulfilled), and stating how remorseful he was (without any action to back it up). I have been patiently trying to build up trust in him, without much help from him, waiting for him to do the right thing, 'to get it', to plug into our M. He still lies to me, or withholds information, which to him is not important, but it is very important to me, and we very rarely ML (in two years, about 10 times, if that). His excuse for the lies and withheld information, is that he doesn't like confrontation. WTF!!!! I asked him when last I every reacted in anger to anything he had to say to me. And the things he lied about was not something that I would've been upset about, except that he lied. I want to be able to know, always, that he is telling me the truth, or is telling me everything that may affect me and the children.

Now, he is going to be doing a lot of travelling with his new job, and all these issues of trust, etc., has reared it's ugly head again. I have told him that I don't trust that he will be faithful to me. I wish I could believe him when he says he will be faithful, but he has proven to me too many times (through pornography, and then the EA) that he cannot stay faithful, even after promising. It just doesn't mean as much to him as it does to me, I guess. Both his parents were cheaters (and are now divorced), so this is how he grew up.

I have to decide whether I can remain married to someone that I just don't trust. I feel he will betray me again, and I cannot go through all that pain again. I can feel myself building the walls around me, detaching from him, before I get hurt again. I have tried not to, but I can't seem to help it. He has told me too many times in our M, that he doesn't love me, has made me feel his poor choices were my fault. He clearly isn't into me, romantically speaking, so I just wish he could tell me the truth (as his actions speak), and I can start getting over him, and moving on with my life.

Perhaps, I shouldn't bother waiting, since his actions do speak louder than words, and maybe he just doesn't know how to say it, and be honest. I almost feel like he is white-knuckling our M, trying to force himself to love me and stay faithful to me, and when I start talking about what isn't right for me, he starts doing damage control. I don't want to go through life being damage controlled. I want the real thing. I want to have that knowledge back, that my H is always truthful, and faithful, and really love me, and has my best interests at heart. That's how I used to think of him, and it's how I tried to be for him, and still do. He was my hero, and I would never have believed he would do half the things he has done over the years. He, on the other hand (and this should've been a clue to me), rarely thought the better of me without having done anything to make him think the worse. He rarely complimented me, or had good things to say about me to others (he didn't say bad things, just nothing really). He did, however, have a lot of negative things to say to the OW about me. He showered her with compliments (what a great mom she was, whereas I apparently sucked as a mother), and positive things (and didn't even know what she currently looked like). To give him credit, he does try and compliment me now, tells me he loves me, and is affectionate to a point.

I was not responsible for his bad choices that lead to my mistrust, and now he wants me to be responsible for building it back up, with very little effort from him, that anything will change. What I am responsible for, is my reaction to his bad choices. I reacted in pain and anger, lashing out at him, when I first discovered his porn addiction more than 15 years ago, and that was how I pretty much reacted every time I found out he was still into it, after promising me he wouldn't do it again (although, I have always been able to withhold insults and name-calling). The last time, I told him, "no more anger, something inside me has died." Then he went to a C, and got the help he needed, but it took so many years, so much pain, and by then, I had allowed myself to think it was my fault, I wasn't good enough for him, there was something wrong with me, and my self-esteem has been going downhill since then. Until the EA! Then, I took a long, hard look at myself, questioned the things he told the OW about me, and found it all baseless garbage (I read all the emails while he was away on a boy scout camp, and I read it over and over during that week, until it was burned into my memory), went into C for myself, and realised that I had allowed anger to dictate my reactions (not only to him, but it had seeped into my R with the children, and others), and allowed my H's choices to chip away at my confidence and self esteem. I had taught him well, how to treat me. I have changed so much since then, that I barely recognise the person I was. I don't need to give ultimatums (that's a control thing) ... my H knows now that if I say something, I mean it. I do not shout, lash out, or sulk. I don't play games, or try and manipulate. I speak calmly, as clearly as possible, and reasonably (IMO). I try and leave things up to him. I just want him to know where I stand at this point and what my needs are, and invite him to share his with me (but, he says nothing on that, so it makes me wonder), and this gives him the opportunity to make changes, if he so wishes. If not, then he knows that I have no problem moving on without him (as painful as that would be). I feel I have truly tried everything in my power to save this M. Now, he must do something, if he also wants to save our M.

Ugh! Sorry, for the long vent. I only talk of the past as an explanation of how we got to this point in our M. I really don't hold the porno thing over his head, or resent him for it anymore. It does help me to get all this off my chest, so thanks for reading if you've gotten this far. I haven't felt this confused, and sad in a long time. One person really can work toward fixing a M (as in DB'ing), but it takes two to sustain that M. You cannot do it alone. And, it cannot always be the one spouse making all the sacrifices, emotionally and any other way.

[Phoenix_spark]

Wow, good, accurate vent. I think most of us here can relate. I'm going to try a few more steps (ie C), but who knows where that will lead. I've got to try it though, I'm not leaving a stone unturned.

[Phoenix_spark]

So, what's up? Hopefully too GAL to post.

[BeingMe]

GAL, yes, but never too busy to post. I have been posting on other threads, and lurking. How's life treating you, Phoenix?

Not much happening on the my marital front ... same ol', same ol'! Lots happening with our children, though ... too much, actually. I am still in shock with my D19 informing us of her pregnancy, last week. She is, apparently, about 3 months along. She is still with her older, idiot bf. We haven't a clue what to do, so just biding our time, until or if, she needs us. Our S19 has been working, and plans to start his upgrade classes next week, at the local college. I am pleased that he is being somewhat more logical, and proactive in making plans for his future. We are also happy he is home. Our D14 continues to CTR, and we are very proud of her. Our eldest D26, will be moving to Illinois at the end of June. Her H is in the USAF, and that is where they are being sent (we had hoped for WA, but it was not to be).

My H started his new job, and so far, is enjoying it. We are just concerned about how much taxes we will be paying, as he is taxed by the US government first, then Canadian taxes, to make up the difference. Canadian taxes is much higher than US, so we are expecting it will be quite a lot. Oh well, that's life on planet earth, 'eh!

I have exams next week, and am rethinking this correspondence study, especially in this line of work ... personal fitness training. I am looking for somewhere here where I can finish the certification. I am also continuing to write, but it has been slow going. Too much family stuff happening. I do try to write at least for an hour everyday. I also have to prepare to give a 10 minute talk on Sunday, about the Atonement of Christ. I feel eminently unworthy to give it, but will do my best. I used to be very fearful of public speaking, and attended Toastmasters for a year, and it helped a lot, but I haven't given a speech or talk in almost 2 years, so am rather nervous.

Life has been busy, but satisfying, so no real complaints. My H has still not started to plug in, emotionally, but I didn't really expect it. I have spoken to him, and can only hope he heard. He has rarely ever really followed through when it comes to my needs, so I doubt if that's going to change. I still predict that I will eventually walk unless things change soon, or at least see him doing something that will facilitate some change. But I see nothing ... no reading R books, no going to see a C, no bringing up R talks with me, no ML, no romance, no really taking the time to listen to me, and communicate with me ... just the usual off-handed, repetitive show of affection ... the same three pecks hullo and good-bye and the odd hugs. We do go on dates ... to dinner or movie, so it's not all bad, just boring. Oh, and he did buy me a beautiful eternity ring for our 21st anniversary at the end of March, which is a rather romantic gift for him. I took him out to dinner.

So, there it is! My present life in a nutshell, as it were. Fortunately, I am happy with myself, and find I need affection, ML, romance, and interaction with my H, less and less. I get my need for affection from my D14 (lots of hugs, hanging out, giggles, etc.), and communication from S19 (we have similar tastes in books, movies, and stuff to chat about). As for romance and ML ... hey, I had my day, and I just replace it with writing, studying, and art. Nobody said life would be perfect, and sometimes we just have to make do.

Take care!

[Concerned_Listener]

Being,
I took some time to read and catch-up with your thread.

It looks like you and your H are polarized around the intimacy issue. ML only every two months is certainly a problem. I'm also concerned that he dropped-out of MC.

I'm not sure what the problem is. It sounds like your anger/resentment are building to the point where you can no longer piece this issue in a good frame-of-mind.

Is he avoidant of working on these issues? Are your expectations too high? Is he willing to make small steps? Is there something about the way you approach him that's influencing his avoidance around this issue? Is it safe for him to work on these issues?

Is he working on making a connection with you in nonsexual ways? Is this the place to start making changes, and work into sex? You had mentioned that you were bored with dinners and movies. Do you have any ideas, that would get you two out of the dating rut? Would he take dance lessons with you?

I noticed in an earlier post, that during a R talk, he told you how difficult it was to face conflict. You failed to validate this problem for him, and stated that he shouldn't be afraid of you. I saw this as a positive that he was telling you this. It seems to me that you need to help him face conflict, rather than dismiss it.

Are you being objective about his versus your role in the intimacy problems? Many of your posts seem to have a blaming quality to it.

I'm not sure if your situation is one where you're DB as well as can be done, or if you were to make some changes, he would respond differently, or if this is truly 100% his issue and his level of motivation to change is low.

You seem to have made great strides in GAL, and probably in other areas as well. I wonder if there's a different way of relating to him that might get a different response--assuming he has some motivation to change?

CL

[Phoenix_spark]

Well, it certainly sounds like you have your plate full. Spring break went fairly well. As I mention, there was a "future" statement given that indicated that I would still be around. I came very close to throwing out a "not *_____* likely, the way you treat me". But as I said before I kept composure and comments in check.

What did you think of 2 weekends ago? I very much wanted to print it out and drop in on W nightstand. Somehow W thinks she can play into the D mess and come out smelling like roses with the B and C. However I think the more W reconnects spiritually, she is seeing how that cannot happen and has been really soul searching. Somehow she has to figure out how she can keep face and go completely against commitments made (for selfish reasons). She can either choose to follow her "hip" friends and co-workers, or follow the things she has been taught and taught to our children. W wants to have FHE, but does not like to sit anywhere near me. That's right, unity and division in the same picture, no wonder the kids are a little confused. I know I am.

W did not like when I held FHE on nights that she worked. Said she wanted to be there for that. Again, held my tongue. I didn't want to say I was trying to pull back together what was left of the family (since I figured she would/will bail eventually). Well, I guess I should feel thankful for what I do have and the efforts she does make, even if they do seem out in left field. They seems to be an improving chance she will catch the vision.

[BeingMe]

Thanks for posting your thoughts, CL. I really appreciate getting a fresh POV, because I am pretty much stuck. Yeah, my attitude probably does come across as blaming. And, I don't post our conversations word for word, but try and focus on where I feel the more important part of the convo lay, which probably doesn't give anyone a complete view. When my H said he didn't like confrontation, I did tell him that I know this and understood, but that I was not confronting him, but rather trying to understand where we stood. Look, we have been married for 21 years. I know my H very well, or, I thought I did until the A. One thing I do know is that he hates confrontation, or discussing anything negative - he would far rather try and bury any issues, and pretend it didn't happen, and move on from there. However, an A is something I cannot just overlook, and I need to see something constructive from him that tells me he is plugging into this M, and making an effort to be trustworthy. I just see the same avoidance behaviour, and I am just not going to tolerate it this time. He must either step up to the plate or we leave the field.

Maybe, we are just not compatible. I am at a loss as to what to do. I do love him, but I just don't see myself trusting him again - not the way things are going. I know I have made many mistakes in our M, and I have tried really hard to change, and he has certainly noticed. I used to get very angry, but I don't anymore, which he has also noticed. I try and approach him as gently as I can, but he still sees it as confrontational. So, I find myself withdrawing into my own life, and getting on with my own thing. Hey, I can go without sex indefinitely. I used to be the LD spouse, and he would complain, and beg me to see psychologists, and a doctor to see if there was anything biologically or mentally wrong (and I did just to please him, and save our M at that time), but I cannot say anything to him now that it seems he is LD, because I am 'confrontational'. But, I wonder if that is any way to live a married life. While going through the whole A thing, I always initiated S, and he had no problem with that, and I am sure that doing so again, would give the required response, albeit the usual 'scratch the itch' kind of ML. However, he stopped wanting to ML when I asked him if we could have gentler, more romantic, and intimate ML on occasion. And, that is what hurts, and why I stopped initiating. It's been more than a year since I verbalized that need (and, I was always shy before in requesting anything in the sex department, and now I can see maybe I was right not to have bothered before). I have been DBing for more than 3 years, and was successful, in the most part. This is the only issue left, really, and I am getting resentful, I must admit. I have tried many different ways of trying to communicate my concerns to him, but he just doesn't like discussing these intimate things. Perhaps, we should go back to MC, or even try the Retrouiville way. I will check and see when they are next running a weekend in our vicinity.

Ugh! It's all just too depressing and complicated, so I think I'm just going to let it go for now, and see what happens in the next couple of months. It really is up to him now. Maybe, once he is travelling, and only home on weekends, he will find he misses me, and will be more forthcoming in the more romantic ML department. I just cannot figure him out at this point.

Here are some positives:
We do talk - just not about R issues
We are affectionate
We are respectful of each other
We go to bed at the same time and do snuggle for a bit
He doesn't appear to be having an A
He is open to taking dance lessons, or learning a new language with me, or something else like sailing
He is still a great dad
He is supportive in my studying
We still go on our dates (I have certainly not told him I am starting to find them boring - wouldn't want to hurt his feelings, so I will make suggestions for trying something else on date night, like go bowling)

So! It's not all bad.

Phoenix - I hope things continue improving as it seems they are doing. Don't worry about your W not wanting to sit next to you during FHE ... just play it cool. FHE is such a great thing for families.