Dang the two of you are giving me a lot to think about.
Maybe we can cut to the chase right now.
You both mention my "denial" and say I have lots of problems. What am I denying, and what are the major problems?
And what is the first step I need to take? One major problem as I see it is in what do I do to make that first approach. Right now, picturing it in my mind, I see the following. I come home, massive amounts of apphrension about the upcoming conversation I want/need to have with my W. I've tried to say it before, but the words just won't come out right. And it seems that every verbal mistake I make are the things she picks up on. I want to be firm in stating my opinions, but I can see how my statements hurt her. I want to be compassionate and understanding of her POV, but I can see when I do that she will disengage thinking I have acquiesed. What I want in my R, when I talk to other people they state it is universally reasonable. But when I talk to her, I understand her objections. I don't want to force her to do something she doesn't want to do. She is tired. She is overwhelmed. She needs personal time after being bombarded by kids all day. She just doesn't feel it at all. Why can't I just be happy with what she can give? I feel demanding, unreasonable, unappreciated, unloved, unloving, lost, overwhelmed, unheard, uncaring, inadequate, and a grade A a$$hole at the same. How do I show her that underneath my desire for change, to have my needs met, I do adore her? What face do I show?
And as far as my self-esteem. I recently received the award for Outstanding Junior Faculty in my college. My very next thought ... I wonder how soon it will be before I win the other awards (senior faculty research, service, and teaching). Cocky? Yeah probably. But I don't lack self-esteem in my profession. The very next thought ... I would rather be ML to my W. Followed by sadness that I can't seem to be able to conquer my demons or be the kind of man that can help her conquer hers.
Have I poisened the well too much with my earlier ineffectual rambling discussions with her? How can I make sure my message is clear? What is the most important message to send?
What do I do next?
Chrome
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
NOTE: I don't want to imply from my most recent post that I am not going to answer questions and such from the previous posts. I do think that there are some interesting questions there. I am just feeling a bit overwhelmed at the moment and wanted to focus for a second. Thanks.
I do see that I have allowed my self-esteem to crumble significantly since last summer. I guess I need to go back to my C and just start over.
Chrome
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
It sounds like Chrome and his W just get on the R hamster wheel and just go around and around and around. I don't really see how MC right now would change that. But if Chrome were to keep confronting himself and doing his work so that he gets to a healthier place, then he might be able to effect some change in the M, or at least shake things up enough so that his W is forced to change because of the R dynamics, not because Chrome directly forced her.
A very good description and interesting POV. I can clearly see that I have a HUGE problem because my sense of self-worth is tied intricately with my M. Every self-esteem stride is held back by those ropes. But I fear to cut them because I fear abandonment. I fear that if I "focus on myself" and let the R stuff go for awhile, I'll never be able to find that rope again. I don't know how to detach from the R I have, even though the R I have is only partially connected. Its like my W and I are two interlocking pieces that have been jammed together the wrong way and now it is difficult to separate despite the fact that the connection we have is hurting both of us. Overusing this analogy perhaps, but in those situations the easiest solution is just rip the two pieces apart and then throw them away if something breaks. But I don't want that. I need someone who knows what they are doing, someone who doesn't feel the pain of the stressed parts that are connected improperly, to help untangle us and find how to make us fit together properly. That's kinda why I see an MC being important.
But I can see your POV. If my W feels forced to go to MC, or feels it uneccessary, then it could be worse than useless. Somebody was talking earlier on their thread about the W feeling ganged up on. I could see my W feeling that way.
Chrome
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
I do see that I have allowed my self-esteem to crumble significantly since last summer. I guess I need to go back to my C and just start over. \:\( \:\( \:\(
No sad faces!! You aren't starting over; you didn't finish and you are picking up where you left off!! Go reread the Emerson quote again
Seriously I wondered how much would cause overload. Just relax a little and give you and your wife the benefit of the doubt. What is that quote "Be kind. Everyone is fighting some battle."?
I recently received the award for Outstanding Junior Faculty in my college.
Congratulations!! Please take some time and just focus on this POSITIVE news.
Last edited by fearless; 04/05/0705:48 PM.
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
OTOH if I was not as aware and self-validated, I may have confused the situation by actually needing QT for validation of XH's love for me AND for validation of myself. In that case the QT "validation" from other people, male coworkers and friends, would have left me susceptible to romantic feelings.
This is precisely the case. I had NO self-validation prior to the EA, in fact I had the exact opposite. I constantly berated myself (some of the people who have been here awhile can attest to how I was at first when I came here). AND I was receiving no validation from the W. As I mentioned earlier, OW was the first person to validate my physical side, and I was completely unprepared to deal with the resulting emotions. I immediately became massively in her debt. It was the biggest single love bank deposit in my life precisely because I didn't see it coming and because I had never seen those types of coins before.
I can clearly see that if I had had a better sense of self back then, I would have been more resistant to OW's comments. I'm not sure that a high sense of self makes you A proof, but it is necessary. Some may see this is self-justification, but I think anyone is susceptible to A unless they have a strong sense of self, have a strong M, and make conscious mental steps against the possibility.
Chrome
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
You stress the trauma in both Chrome and his wife's lives and you comment to me that "Asking Chrome or his wife to just open up is way too threatening." Yet you make remarks like below:
The way you were suggesting that Chrome speak to his wife was almost demeaning IMO, like apparent to a child. Nothing wrong with the message itself, but that particular style will put her on the defensive I think.
So my suggestion in talking to Mrs.Chrome about her issues with accepting compliments would be more threatening than "Confront her withdrawal. It is a behavior you want to change."?
I see no harm in asking her about her acceptance of compliments, but again, if you point the question squarely at her as an issue or problem with her, she will withdraw. Chrome needs to addressing the issues IMO, put in a very delicate way. I think MrsChrome is extremely enmeshed and cannot handle criticism. That does not mean she can continue avoiding her issues, but how those issues are brought up is very important.
I said I struggled because I know it can be good to deal with denial in a straight forward way.
Agreed.
OTOH first confronting someone else's denial can be a deflecting technique away from your own denial issues.
True, but Chrome has done a lot of work on himself.
Second for the reason you brought up - trauma.[b]
OK….
[b]Third is that MrsChrome would probably ACCURATELY point to Chrome's issues which could just send them into a pointless downward spiral.
I expect that she will deflect. But I don’t think Chrome becoming the perfect man will change this either. As long as she can deflect, she will. The task is to not let her keep deflecting. That does not mean a downward spiral either. Spirals happen when boundaries give way. Hairdog gave us a great example of how to avoid this.
If her denial was about a life threatening situation then obviously I think intervention is required regardless.
Define “life threatening” situation, because I can tell you that what may not be threatening for you will FEEL life threatening to my W and I suspect Chrome’s W too. My W knows there may not be a REAL threat of death, but she still reacts the same way. That is what trauma does to a person. Think of a shell-shocked Vietnam Vet. Same thing. You cannot rationalize those fears away.
Please know that I absolutely agree that IF Mrs.Chrome was fully engaged in this process I think it would be GREAT and help things move more quickly.
So when do you think she will decide to engage? I’ll tell you when… when Chrome gets fed up and decides to file. Then there will be a much harder recovery to be made. The problem is quite apparent. There is no need to dance around this hoping one or the other will suddenly wake up. That just does not happen.
Since I believe that Chrome has his own issues with denial, I would say that this argument could be used to say let us deal with Chrome's denial FIRST.
Chrome HAS dealt with a lot. Sure he has more, no doubt. But you have to understand something Fearless. Time is a factor in any relationship. Look at Mojo. I don’t think she has done the work she needs to overcome her need for validation. But she has been wrapped up in an abusive relationship for way too long. Should she stay longer to complete her growth? No. But it would have been better had she been able to grow in a shorter period of time, possibly avoiding a lot of her suffering and maybe even salvaging the M. Who knows. But stretching out the suffering is not always good.
I do not think Chrome can get to the point of being a sufficiently “healthy” person to turn his M around. If he can, it will take years. In the mean time he will have suffered, his W and kids will have suffered, and too much water may have passed under the bridge.
She seems painfully aware of his unhappiness with her and the relationship. She accurately hears something more in his pleas for a "better relationship" including hearing a critique of who she is (whether Chrome means it or not she is hearing that he wants her to change). Thus Chromes quote "any convo about the R she will afterwards describe as "one of those bad convos."
I agree, so is it Chrome’s responsibility to not say those uncomfortable things so she does not have to deal with one of those “bad convos?” How will that help the M?
YES, but it IS possible for him to change on his own.
You want to tell that to that shell shocked Vietnam Vet? Get real.
I think that one person dealing with their issues alone CAN affect a marriage positively.
Agreed, but only up to a point. Look at Mojo, Hairdog, Lil… They had made remarkable changes, they have tried very hard. Their Rs have improved, but they are still not fixed. They are still not sustainable.
This approach is guaranteed to make that person healthier and happier.
Generally agreed to a point, but without any guarantees.
As far as the marriage there is no guarantee although it may take the pressure off the marriage and the other person which allows some positive feeling to begin to flow BACK INTO the marriage and potentially inspire the other partner to want to make some changes also.
How do you expect one person to allow these positive feelings to come back in when they are holding onto resentment bread out of a sense of entitlement? That entitlement in turn comes from denial and a lack of confidence and understanding of proper boundaries and the limitations of one’s own sphere of influence.
It also gives credibility to the partner who has obviously done their work.
Yes, it will do that.
And getting yourself healthy puts you in the place of being able to handle more difficult relationship issues.
True, to a point.
I think it is clear that NOPs had a healthy self-esteem already.
I don’t know, but I wouldn’t make that assumption. I do think their esteem has grown with their M.
What I propose is to get Chrome to that healthy state before pushing on to the "The only way to slay that elephant is to bring it into the open" idea.
Nothing wrong with that in theory, but for Chrome, I see his personal growth as being tied to that of his W. I think a joint effort will be faster, more permanent, create deeper bonds, and settle more issues.
I have not read "The passionate marriage" yet. Like I have mentioned there has been no problem with passion in my relationships but I am willing to learn more
The book’s title is a little bit of a misnomer IMO. It deals will a LOT more than just passion, but all those things need to be dealt with before true passion can be achieved, according to Schnarch’s definition of passion. I highly recommend you read it.
Relying on your partner to give you a positive reflected sense of self (as most people do) limits intimacy and desire... Most marital enrichment approaches emphasize other-validated intimacy: expecting empathy, reciprocity, and validation from your partner when you disclose. "The Passionate Marriage Approach" emphasizes self-validated intimacy; validating and accepting your own disclosures, and soothing your own heart. This shift allows you to resolve emotional gridlock, intimacy problems, sexual boredom and low desire, and develop a more passionate loving relationship.
Did I miss something in their own description of the book? Isn't my suggestion of Chrome getting to the point of self-validation the same point of Schnarck?
Fearless: YES, but it IS possible for him to change on his own.
Cobra: You want to tell that to that shell shocked Vietnam Vet? Get real.
HUH? When I said on his own, that DOES include a therapist or whatever support is available. Isn't it the Vietnam Vet and the psychiatrist/psychologist that make the break through? I thought that was the issue many vets faced was looking to a spouse to fix them. And the spouses had the same problem because they thought they alone could help their "shell shocked Vietnam Vet."
Last edited by fearless; 04/05/0706:10 PM.
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
Did I miss something in their own description of the book? Isn't my suggestion of Chrome getting to the point of self-validation the same point of Schnarck?
You did not miss anything. You are correct in your comparison. The problem I have with Schnarch is that IMO, strict adherence to his ideas could trigger D. The reason is that he describes an ideal objective, the ultimate goal. Getting there is no easy process. Each time a couple steps into the “Crucible” they face the hard choices they have tried to avoid.
In Chrome’s case, that could eventually lead him to face enduring once a month sex or D. That is not a choice he should make, IMO. Neither he nor his W is in a position to negotiate this dilemma yet. More sex is overwhelming for his W. Less sex puts Chrome deeper into his pit. The compromise needed to avoid D may be more than either can handle.
IMO too much self validation, too much differentiation at too fast a pace can kill an already weak marriage. Schnarch is very powerful stuff and needs to be handled carefully, IMO. However it is because of that power that breakthroughs can be made and growth started when other approaches fail. IMO, the best compromise of all is the adult attachment approach. It combines FOO work, self validation and other validation for trauma cases. It provides a way to overcome issues that are too scary to face alone, as Schnarch proposes.
When I said on his own, that DOES include a therapist or whatever support is available. Isn't it the Vietnam Vet and the psychiatrist/psychologist that make the break through?
What I read about adult attachment is that one-on-one counseling is only partially successful with trauma survivors. A team approach apparently has a much higher success rate.
If you read Schnarch, you will find that his method is actually a way to “force” action in your spouse. This happens by you facing your dilemma, such as lack of sex, and asking you partner to give a solution. If the partner refuses, then the ball is back in your court. So what do you do? That is the dilemma. You can live with it, counter propose a different arrangement, or throw in the towel and D. Then you partner must now make a choice. Was D really what s/he intended when turning down the sex? Or is D too high a price for more sex. If so, then giving more sex will be preferable to D.
Had the first partner not confronted the spouse with the initial question, the spouse would never have come to be in a position to have to make such a choice. The spouse could choose freely, but the first person “forced” the issue by bringing up the dilemma. Now if you are smart, you can prepare in advance and craft those choices in a way to make the desired outcome a little more certain.
You both mention my "denial" and say I have lots of problems. What am I denying, and what are the major problems?
And what is the first step I need to take? One major problem as I see it is in what do I do to make that first approach.
Maybe I should not say denial but rather anxiety and fear. Like Hairdog in some ways, you shy away from confrontation. Maybe you should do like him and communicate via email until you can sort out and identify all your concerns. That will also help you to stay on target and organize your thoughts. It sounds like your W’s deflection skills are pretty highly refined.
It also sounds like you get too emotionally wrapped up in verbal communication and go into both victim mode and rescuer mode.
Right now, picturing it in my mind, I see the following. I come home, massive amounts of apphrension about the upcoming conversation I want/need to have with my W.
Have I poisened the well too much with my earlier ineffectual rambling discussions with her?
No way. Poor communication can always be overcome.
How can I make sure my message is clear? What is the most important message to send?
What is the most important, pressing issue for you right now? I know sex, but what else? To me, I hear you content to begin with simple things like a little validation, better communication, etc.
I feel demanding, unreasonable, unappreciated, unloved, unloving, lost, overwhelmed, unheard, uncaring, inadequate, and a grade A a$$hole at the same.
To me, this back into victim thinking, not wanting to take responsibility for “wielding your power.” You want your W to make changes. That means asking her to do a few more things or different things. She may prefer not to do them. So would you prefer to out up with not having them? If not, then learn to live with the fact that for you to get what you want, she will have to do some work, and that you should not feel guilty about it. You do things for her. Does she feel guilty about that?
I can clearly see that I have a HUGE problem because my sense of self-worth is tied intricately with my M. Every self-esteem stride is held back by those ropes. But I fear to cut them because I fear abandonment. I fear that if I "focus on myself" and let the R stuff go for awhile, I'll never be able to find that rope again.
Chrome, I don’t exactly know how to do this either. Desensitization requires “just doing it,” though in little steps. I’m not exactly sure what you are talking about here, but my general idea is that if you could explain this to your W in a way she could understand, and that did not feel needy or threatening to her, do you think she could agree to give you some sign of understanding your needs and promising to stay with you while you work through this? If you can also ask her to at least listen to your fears as you progress and provide any pointers or other input, then you might be a good way toward being on the same team.
I don't know how to detach from the R I have, even though the R I have is only partially connected. Its like my W and I are two interlocking pieces that have been jammed together the wrong way and now it is difficult to separate despite the fact that the connection we have is hurting both of us.
This is how I felt too. Letting go was too scary. It took the threat of D for us to realize neither of us wanted to let go. It was stupid and something that could have been avoided. It also took us right up to the brink of D. With what I know now, I will never go down that path again. It is too high risk. The best way to avoid it is honest, open communication.
Let me also say that getting your W into counseling, even through pressure, is not a bad thing, IMO. She will resist and fight it for now. But as she becomes better informed and is able to open her eyes, she will see that you were not trying to hurt her and I think any resentment she may have built up regarding this will quickly evaporate.
Let me also say that getting your W into counseling, even through pressure, is not a bad thing, IMO. She will resist and fight it for now. But as she becomes better informed and is able to open her eyes, she will see that you were not trying to hurt her and I think any resentment she may have built up regarding this will quickly evaporate.
I would say it all depends on how resistant she is to seeing a C, and if she is hiding something that she is afraid will be revealed, i.e., if she was sexually abused as some think, then the fear of confronting that may be scarier than any fears about the M. I'm concerned that it might do more harm than good in the long term to FORCE MrsChrome to see a C.
Chrome can continue doing his own work to help himself and to change the dynamic of the M. I think it would be better that somehow MrsChrome comes to the decision to see a C herself because she believes it would help herself and the M. I know I wouldn't respond to force particularly well.
