Tortoise or the Hare

[chromosphere]

Fearless,

You make some very good points. I appreciate very much your insights.

I am a bit confused. Are you or are you not trying to change her?

Not to seem anal, but at this point maybe we could define "change her." Change is a nebulous word, as everyone changes all the time based on new experiences. What I imagine in my mind as wanting from her is for her to develop new "skills" and a change in attitude toward our marriage and its various components. I envision what she is saying is that I want her to become some fundamentally different person, with the implication that I don't like "who she is." So maybe this is simply a case of us debating past each other with nebulous terminology. I do realize that what I want is significant, but I don't think it is unreasonable. I am definitely willing to make a similar level of change in myself if that is what she needs.

I think the honest answer is "YES I want you to change so we can have a better and stronger relationship."

Makes sense.

Also you could ask her what she wants from you.

I have. She doesn't know. I'm not being facetious

Then you are not as self confident as you think.

No, I am aware of my low level of self-confidence. Painfully aware.

and nothing my XH did while we were married hurt that self confidence

I have a difficult time imagining being that way.

And Yes there is nothing I could do to make myself feel like he loved me. HOWEVER that did not effect how I saw myself.

I can see how this is an ideal way to be. The Catch-22 is that in my efforts to develop that safe place, I keep slipping because of troubling thoughts concerning the M.

Failure is not fatal; failing to change will be. John Wooden

I'd say that pretty much sums it up.

Any thoughts on my Enneagram score? I'm trying to picture in what ways it can be helpful.

Chrome

p.s. I do know that I over think things too much, and that leads me to talk circles around myself and to her. I do have it in mind to take a more action-oriented approach. Its just I feel this need to talk things out sometimes, despite the fact that it never does anything good. Perhaps it is a compulsion of mine.

[fearless]

Chrome,

I'm going to try and catch up with your last 2 posts to me.

The issue about compliments for your wife could be a mixture of things. I have a friend who is wonderfully self confident but if I say something nice about her hair, looks, etc., immediately she will say something to deflect the compliment like "Oh I really need to get a haircut."

Is it possible to address that issue directly with her? I am assuming that you are not the only one from whom she cannot accept compliments. "Mrs. Chrome, you don't seem accept compliments from others. Why not?" Keep it as direct and not personal to you. Let her open up if she can!! Explain with an example of a compliment from someone else, how she does not seem comfortable recognizing her beauty, good mothering ability, intelligence, etc. If you can approach this from a position of purely being interested in her and her feelings, I think it will be interesting to hear what she has to say. I would not push too hard at first. Just enough to get a little information on whether she knows this about herself (my friend did) and how much she has thought about it already. Be open to her thoughts and do not assume what is the cause.

passionate relationships

Three responses to this question. One, in some sense it is a false dichotomy. I shouldn't have to give up other good things to get the thing I want the most. There is no reason why I cannot have great job/kids/income/passion at the same time. Second, honestly I did come close in the EA to doing that very thing (giving up all the other good things for some passion). Third, ultimately it may come down to doing that very thing. If I D, I will probably have very little custody of my children, I will have to quit my job and lose my stable income (although I am confident I could find another). So in essence I would be giving up those other things in an attempt to achieve passion. But my sincerest hope is to have it all, and I think it can be done.

First I absolutely believe in having passion and everything else you want. However I think the way you look at things and perceive things is wreaking havoc on your ability to get the actual result you want.

1) I too think it is a false dichotomy but you have to watch setting yourself up that way with how you describe your situation. Something that you want MOST of all IS something you are willing to give important things up for. Isn't that most the MOST signifies? Something you want A LOT or equally is something that can exist with anything else you choose to keep important. Example: I want to make "big" money but not at the sacrifice of personal relationships. I still believe I can make "big" money AND have good personal relationships but I recognize that my desire for good personal relationship makes making a lot of money more difficult although not impossible. Some people decide that money is the MOST important goal and so relationships fall to the side. Choices and perception.

2) So do you think you would have been happy to give everything up for the passion in your EA? Did you not give everything up because the passion in the EA wasn't enough?

3) So you are prepared to give everything up for passion? (If you are willing to give up everything you have and love in your current life, then I should probably just stop because I have a different set of values than you do. I am not judging merely saying we would have different opinions that would be difficult to overcome.)

With all you just wrote I still do not hear the answer to the specific question. WOULD you GIVE UP your great kids, great job, etc. for great passion? Since you did not wholeheartedly say "yes", I have to believe that you would not or at least that you do not want to. What you do want is more passion in your life and marriage. I personally believe you, and anyone else, can have it all. It is a matter of how you perceive it and look to attain it.

Help me out a little and give me some examples of passionate relationships you admire and/or describe your definition of a passionate relationship. (There are many views of this. At the extremes some people consider passion as screaming at each other and throwing things and others see passion in the smallest of gestures and exchanges – a smile across the room at an event, handholding, etc.)


No, I am aware of my low level of self-confidence. Painfully aware.

I did not mean to be too harsh. I am sorry if I was. There is no reason why you shouldn't be self-confident.


Fearless: and nothing my XH did while we were married hurt that self confidence

Chrome: I have a difficult time imagining being that way.

Well do not let me gloss over the fact that I know EXACTLY how incredibly painful it is to not feel loved by your spouse. Try, after living with this feeling of not being loved enough for 2-3 years, having your spouse initiate a separation for 4 months, then come home on Christmas Eve and tell you about an affair and after 2 months of working on things ask YOU to leave. Keeping your self-esteem only prevents the rest of your life from sucking!!!!

To me, Enneagram scores are interesting for self awareness and that is always helpful. And like you mentioned you can see where you fall within the levels. While you should always be looking at yourself and getting to know yourself better, I also think taking action is a good step too.

Its just I feel this need to talk things out sometimes, despite the fact that it never does anything good. Perhaps it is a compulsion of mine.

Well I do know what that feels like. I love to talk things out. Define "anything good." For me while it did not help my XH understand me better, it helped ME understand me better so that WAS useful. So I learned to start journaling and you have the boards so I hope that helps you


I'm really interested to hear your examples and descriptions of a passionate relationship!


Edit to add:

I almost forgot another quote. This one took me months to fully absorb. I had it hanging on the bathroom mirror, refrigerator door, in my office, etc. Daily reading of this until it REALLY sunk in. Now I feel like it's almost second nature! And it really helped me.

Finish each day and be done with it. You have done what you could; some blunders and absurdities have crept in; forget them as soon as you can. Tomorrow is a new day; you shall begin it serenely and with too high a spirit to be encumbered with your old nonsense. - Ralph Waldo Emerson

[Cobra]

Fearless,

"Mrs. Chrome, you don't seem accept compliments from others. Why not?" Keep it as direct and not personal to you.

To me this feels an awful lot like giving a lecture to a child. I don’t think it will go over well. There are much better ways to get this point across, such as pointing out that same action in a mutual acquaintance and taking the spotlight completely off Mrs.Chrome. Let her put two and two together.

But then again, this very issue of self esteem is at the heart of the Chrome’s problems. If it could be resolved this easily, I think it would have been. On your thread about Know-it-alls, you mentioned your background and how the unconditional love given by your parents allowed a strong sense of security to develop within you.

Imagine how different your life would have been had your mother not given you any security, but withdrawn from you instead. Furthermore, what if you were abused by your father and you had no one to turn to for protection or comfort, not even your mother. The world would seem a pretty scary place. Life is a threat. People are a threat. The only safe place is in a cave. Asking Chrome or his wife to just open up is way too threatening. I think it better if you thought of their situation more like that of trauma victims, which is really what they are.

With all you just wrote I still do not hear the answer to the specific question. WOULD you GIVE UP your great kids, great job, etc. for great passion?

Is there a point somewhere in this cross examination?

I'm really interested to hear your examples and descriptions of a passionate relationship!

Or to this? Chrome has spent too much time escaping into a fantasy world in order to avoid the pain of reality (isn’t that what an EA is all about?) I’m sure he can conjure up a nice idea of a passionate relationship. So could I. But that does not mean I will get it, or he. I have another person to contend with who may have another ideal of a passionate relationship. IMO, better to try to understand what his wife’s idea of this is all about.


Chrome,

If I D, I will probably have very little custody of my children, I will have to quit my job and lose my stable income (although I am confident I could find another).

Would you explain this to me? Why would a D cause you to lose your job? Are Ds not allowed at your university?

About your M, the more I think about it, the more I believe there needs to be joint effort to tackle the issues. You are aware that both you and your W seek validation from each other, yet you each seem to be too scared to make yourself vulnerable enough to give it. IC is good for each of you (she really needs to start going herself), but the “action oriented” part, the CBT part, needs to be joint. That means neither of you should have to become too vulnerable, because in such an insecure state, it does not take much rejection to send one of you into either withdrawal or anger, and when either of you is vulnerable, showing a little rejection, as part of your natural life-long defense system, is just too easy. It seems to me like the risk/reward with that approach is not in your favor.

Maybe a better approach would be for each of you to make little steps, one after the other, not reaching too far out and not becoming too vulnerable. Stay within limits that you each can tolerate without reacting too strongly, so as to not step backward, but only go forward a little at a time. Slow and risk averse, but more certain to mount one success after another and slowly build a little momentum.

IMO, this will require that you both set some ground rules. You might put this in writing (or something to this effect):

Both agree to:
Commit to trying in good faith
Fully understand the game plan (whatever it is you decide)
Tolerate the discomfort of pushing to new ground on issues
Not ask for too much "push" to avoid excessive discomfort
Always validate and acknowledge each other
Take a cooperative, team approach
Honestly express feelings, including any building discomfort or resentment

Anyway, that’s just an idea on you might gently push forward with issues.....

Above I refer to you and your W’s FOO, but now that I think about it, I do not really know much about her background. Perhaps a little more information about her would help. I vaguely recall that you were reluctant to say much about her on a public forum. Do you still feel that way?

[chromosphere]

Fearless,

With regards to the compliments thing, I have somewhat addressed in the past with comments like "when someone compliments you, just say thanks" and that seems to work in the short term. Again, the only real problem I see is that our R is missing an opportunity for love bank deposits. It is easy to compliment her.

I will try to probe a bit, with Cobras comments in mind. I don't think that accepting compliments is a crucial issue at this point in our R recovery. But it could be a comvo that if I handle it right might not be as threatening and could give me some insight and empathy for her thought processes.

I too think it is a false dichotomy but you have to watch setting yourself up that way with how you describe your situation. Something that you want MOST of all IS something you are willing to give important things up for. Isn't that most the MOST signifies?

Well, to me MOST signifies that I would give up other things for it, but I don't think it necessarily implies that I would give up anything and everything for it. Perhaps saying that passion has a plurality of my wants rather than a majority? Although right now, because it is the thing I am missing, it seems like a majority.

So do you think you would have been happy to give everything up for the passion in your EA? Did you not give everything up because the passion in the EA wasn't enough?

I'm not sure I 100% understand the sense of those questions. What I meant was that my drive to pursue the EA could have resulted in me losing everything else. Not the same situation as rationally and thoughtfully giving up other things to pursue a single minded goal, but the end result could have been the same. While the EA was in full swing, I felt both extremely happy and extremely sad. The passion in the EA was plenty strong, perhaps too strong, especially considering that I had up to that point buried my desire for passion. I imagine this is true for many EAs, and the reason for the "fog" that drives people to make irrational decisions.

So you are prepared to give everything up for passion?

Of course I would not choose to give up everything for passion, although I would give up an awful lot. I'll try to be more clear. Right now there is a wholly insufficient amount of passion in my M. I am trying and will continue to try to rectify that. But at some point in the future, it may become clear that nothing within my power can rectify the situation, as it involves two people. At that point I may decide to D, which would result in me losing a lot of other things in my life. I could choose to stay in a passion-starved marriage to preserve the other things, but I don't think right now that I would.

Help me out a little and give me some examples of passionate relationships you admire and/or describe your definition of a passionate relationship.

Passion is everything from the glazed-eyed desire to the small guestures. I remember when I first started dating my W, I felt this absolutely electric thrill in just holding her hand. Shared thoughts and interests can be passionate. I will still feel that spark many times when I am around my W. But (to belabor a probably bad analogy) a current requires a closed circuit. Right now I feel the spark has no where to go, so it dies every time I approach her feeling the charge and it doesn't flow back to me. I do recognize that a part of the reason the charge is not flowing back to me could be my own poor mental attitude (e.g. grasping). If my W were to sometimes reach out to hold my hand, or give me a big hug, or lock eyes with me, etc. etc. all the way to setting up a date with me on her own and dressing to kill with an exhausting night of sex and affection afterwards. I would consider all of that a passionate R. I can get a lot more specific if it would help.

I did not mean to be too harsh. I am sorry if I was. There is no reason why you shouldn't be self-confident.

You are not being too harsh, I just wanted to be sure you didn't think I had some false view of the confidence I project.

Well do not let me gloss over the fact that I know EXACTLY how incredibly painful it is to not feel loved by your spouse.

I am very sorry you had to go through what you did and admire your strength. Our situations are different in that you had the ugly in-your-face ending, while I am faced with the never ending feeling of not being loved. I'm not really worried about my W deciding to walk out on me, although I guess it could happen.

Define "anything good."

Yes, that statement was unecessarily hyperbolic, thanks for calling me on misuse of absolutes. But what I see is my constant musings appear to confuse my W more than help our situation.

That is a really good quote. I may just have to add it to my daily affirmations posted on my bathroom mirror.

I'm really interested to hear your examples and descriptions of a passionate relationship!

Well, I didn't go into great detail here, but I'm noticing the clock and realizing I need to get to work. I woke early to run this morning and was blasted by the unseasonal cold, so I had a few extra minutes to journal. I'll write more later.

Chrome

[fearless]

Cobra,

First I absolutely agree that I do not understand how it feels to not have unconditional love from your parents. I do not know much about trauma victims and I would hate to think I was creating a threatening environment for either.

Second Chrome seems to be very aware of his issues so I trust that he is in a better place and understands his bad upbringing had nothing to do with him. It was all about his parents dysfunctions.

Third my questions and suggestions to him are about getting him OUT of the circle of throwing out lines like "I most want great passion." While I believe he very much wants great passion, I think he should be careful of how much power he is giving that statement.

Fourth, I struggle with the idea of putting focus on anyone but the person who has recognized the issues and is open to making some changes. I understand that Mrs Chrome has issues but I am not sure I understand how pushing her will help at the moment. Chrome still has enough work that he can do on his own before he pushes his W further. My opinion is that focusing on so many issues that are external to him is actually what KEEPS Chrome somewhat stuck. I just want to give him the courage and some specific tools to know that he can feel better about himself even if his wife is not ready yet.


Chrome
Your wife does not take compliments well and there is a reason for it. It might be useful to your situation but I do not think it will be any big step. The reason I bring this up is it is the one area of your relationship that you do not seem threatened by it or take it personally. This is a chance for you to have an open conversation with her about a topic that you do not take personally. I thought that would be a useful exchange.

I would refrain from TELLING her how to handle it. (Just say think you) I do not even see how you or she could figure it out in one sitting. You also might want to approach from the standpoint of the children. You want your children to be self confident and to be able to accept compliments.

Although right now, because it is the thing I am missing, it seems like a majority.

I wanted you to say it.

Right now there is a wholly insufficient amount of passion in my M. I am trying and will continue to try to rectify that

Do you have enough passion in the rest of your life?


What I meant was that my drive to pursue the EA could have resulted in me losing everything else. Not the same situation as rationally and thoughtfully giving up other things to pursue a single minded goal, but the end result could have been the same.


My point is to be careful of the power of intention. I think you were vulnerable to the EA PRECISELY because you have been so focused on the feeling of passion without thinking about what else is important to you which you do have and about the STEPS to getting passion.

Passion is everything from the glazed-eyed desire to the small gestures

I think you have a reasonable expectation of passion but I would be more curious to have some examples of whose marriages/ relationships you admire. The reason is again that the power of having a more concrete view of what you want makes it easier to get versus a blanket statement like "more passion." Again my point is that a more practical look at your wish for passion can both help you from getting lost in unreasonable expectations AND help you be focused enough to actually GET passion in your life.

That is a really good quote.

I was prone to backsliding and getting on myself when I made mistakes so this was very helpful to me. Keeping your spirits up and having a positive attitude!!! Your comments about getting into the pit made me wonder if this could help the valleys from becoming pits.

[chromosphere]

Cobra,

I do want to respond to the previous 2 emails, but thought I would hit this one first.

Chrome: If I D, I will probably have very little custody of my children, I will have to quit my job and lose my stable income (although I am confident I could find another).

Cobra: Would you explain this to me? Why would a D cause you to lose your job? Are Ds not allowed at your university?

The situation is that with the law in my state heavily favoring the mother (I have acquantances that have D), there is a good chance I won't get 50% custody, especially if I move. I am working at this university precisely because it is near my W's family. She is literally related to a significant fraction of the population of this county. Many members of the administration of this university have been friends with her family longer than I have worked here. I have NO doubt in my mind that if I D, there would be pressure for me to leave, and that pressure could get nasty as I am still on tenure-track. The other problem is that the social structure here is completely dominated by family and church. It is one of the main reasons that although we do have a significant population of faculty that come from other parts of the country, they usually do not stay long, especially if they are not church-goers. I am in the process of attempting to put together a "dead poet's society" type deal among the faculty here (sip martinis whilst discussing intellectual pursuits) and have a long term plan to increase the night life around here. We finally, just this year, have a coffee shop in town. Imagine, a university town with no coffee shops. Frankly, I really miss the camaraderie I remember from graduate school and that I get when I visit my research collaborators in Boston. The main point is that if I D, I would be very quickly made extremely unwelcome in the university and surrounding areas.

Per your comments about IC etc., I do agree that we really need some sort of MC. I think we are, as you say, so deeply entrenched that we find it difficult to empathize enough to make progress. An outside party with a clearer view would likely be able to give us concrete steps to rectify that situation, as well as help us speak more clearly to each other. Having a plan is a need of mine for sure. Unfortunately my W sees MC as an unjustified expense of time and money, and she has openly stated that she cannot see herself opening up to a C. As she says, she doesn't even open up to her friends. I'm afraid if MC is going to happen, it is going to have to be at the level of insistence on my part. Do you think that is a good idea?

Maybe a better approach would be for each of you to make little steps, one after the other, not reaching too far out and not becoming too vulnerable.

Baby steps are good, and I think we have made some. I often wonder if it isn't my impatience that is the real problem. But I have also seen many backwards motions over the past few months, and this is what is driving a lot of my current angst.

Commit to trying in good faith
Fully understand the game plan (whatever it is you decide)
Tolerate the discomfort of pushing to new ground on issues
Not ask for too much "push" to avoid excessive discomfort
Always validate and acknowledge each other
Take a cooperative, team approach
Honestly express feelings, including any building discomfort or resentment

That is a good list. If I couple those concepts with serious work on myself (both self-improvement and making myself more attractive), it could work to develop the passion that I want.

Above I refer to you and your W’s FOO, but now that I think about it, I do not really know much about her background. Perhaps a little more information about her would help. I vaguely recall that you were reluctant to say much about her on a public forum. Do you still feel that way?

My reluctance is primarily from a position of misrepresentation. I have mentioned that her parents (mom in particular) are VERY sheltering. Any doubts I had were completely washed away as I have watched how she treats our kids. Her mother is also extremely controlling, and does not respect boundaries (not just mine, which are easy to disrespect as they have been very fluid). I can see clearly how my W picked up her "can't have fun till ALL the work is done" and shame-based OCD from her mother. Anything and everything sexual is repressed strongly in her parents home. I don't recall if I mentioned this before, but I have watched her mother actively repress attraction responses (her dad is, from the way I see women act around him, an attractive guy), so it is possible that my W does the same with me. Her mother is literal interpretation of the Bible, young earth creationist type. I do have an IRL friend that is absolutely convinced my W was sexually abused, but I can't see how that is true, and is probably more a projection of his life experiences.

On the positive side, her parents are very nice people, willing to do AOS at the drop of a hat, from cooking meals, to helping clean, to watching kids (although I must say I do occasionally get the guilt trip from MIL). I think they provided a very safe and loving environment for my W growing up. They just excised those facets of life that they were not comfortable with themselves, probably due to their own upbringing in the rural south. The contrast in caring and loving behavior between my ILs and my own parents was very stark to me when I first dated my future W. I'll admit that part of the problem was that I allowed myself to revel in that family environment which blinded me to the other issues that are now cropping up. Overall, my ILs are good people, I am happy to call them my friends, I enjoy spending time with them (as long as it is much less frequent than it is now). Was there anything specific about my W's FOO that you thought might be revealing?

Chrome

[Cobra]

Fearless,

I don’t see any harm in your questions, not that my opinion matters, but I don’t see where it is leading. I do think Chrome knows his FOO issues, but I’m not sure he understands how those issues permeate his responses and why. Those are the secondary and tertiary FOO issues I mentioned. For instance, my W understands her issues with her father abandoning the family, giving the boys different treatment than the girls, and her wanting some of that attention. What she did not seem aware of was how that affected her view and treatment of men. She gravitated toward other women with the same feminist views of men, so she could not tell there was an issue with her viewpoints. Her antagonism toward men was quite apparent to me, but she really had no clue.

I think Chrome has a tendency to fantasize rather than stay grounded in the here and now and work to fix his reality. But that is understandable. Considering his abuse, what else could a child do. There was absolutely nothing he could do to change his reality. His only escape was fantasy. (Mojo tends toward the same thing, IMO.) So I do agree with you that his passion statements could be holding him back.

I think the only way Chrome and his W are going to get to a better place is to work together. Apparently his W has some MAJOR shame and sexual issues. Chrome has not spoken much of this. I think that holds him back as well. The only way to slay that elephant is to bring it into the open.

Fourth, I struggle with the idea of putting focus on anyone but the person who has recognized the issues and is open to making some changes.

Why? What do you have against confronting the person in denial? Usually they are the one holding the relationship hostage.

I understand that Mrs Chrome has issues but I am not sure I understand how pushing her will help at the moment.

Have you read Passionate Marriage? If not, I highly recommend it. Much of the discussion on this board touches on the ideas of David Schnarch.

Chrome still has enough work that he can do on his own before he pushes his W further.

I don’t think he has pushed his wife at all. I think he has placated her. He has been reigning in his actions and behavior in atonement for his EA. That is a necessary first step. But a man can only suck up to his wife for so long until the resentment builds to a level that he blows. Chrome is telegraphing that build up. One problem I see is that his wife may not have any idea about this, just as she didn’t before his EA. Making that communication is Chrome’s responsibility. But he has hamstrung himself by his past actions so that he fears her reaction.

Chrome,

I don’t know how much you have come to grips with the fact that your W is just as responsible for creating this mess by refusing to deal with her crap. She gets indignant when you want something more from the M, which you have every right to expect. I think that is nothing more that a subconscious power play. It is meant to intimidate and control you into backing down and leaving her alone, even though she may not consciously be aware of what she is doing. She then uses the kids as an excuse to dodge responsibility for working through things.

But you are not without responsibility in this too. You have given her plenty of reasons to emotionally check out from the M and this has come back to bite you. You are afraid of making her upset and further withdrawing. So you dance on eggshells and placate. She holds all the power. When you tried to be more alpha, it shifted the power balance. She told you so and put you back in your place. Now she is back on top.

If she is uncomfortable, leave it that way. Don’t back off any of your other requests either. When things get tough enough for her, she will want to change them. Counseling will be the obvious suggestion.

The danger I see in all this is escalation. When each of you get hurt, you withdraw into your shell. The alpha male thing to do is to fight your withdrawal, then recognize it in your wife and ask her what is going on. Confront her withdrawal. It is a behavior you want to change. Make it safe for her to come out of her shell and uncomfortable for her to go into it. I think your marriage to date has been the opposite of this.

Your wife will never be ready to deal with your marriage, at least not until something forces her to deal with it, like D. The longer you put things off, the harder it will be, IMO. People do have inertia and she will get more entrenched in her comfortable routine. She will have a stronger support system (her parents are also a major saboteur of your marriage) and only become more resistant to change over time.

The irony of all this is that I bet she wants the same things you want, even though she cannot say so (which is another major warning flag). She does not like going into her shell, but like you, she knows no other way. I’m also willing to bet her parents only reinforce her behavior on one hand, but on the other empathize with her pain and want her to be happy. So they may be “stuck” too.

The only way out of these problems, IMO, is to bring them to the light of day, stop hiding them in the shadows, talk them through as much as needed, really understand each other, stop dancing on eggshells to release the resentment, and desensitize or acclimatize yourself (ie, the CBT approach) to the discomfort of vulnerability. Actions cannot replace this.

As for your latest post, if D is a problem, then don’t D. I’m not sure why you are contemplating this in the first place. I don’t think you have done anywhere close to the work needed before contemplating D. You have certainly suffered enough, but that was your choice.

Unfortunately my W sees MC as an unjustified expense of time and money,

This is BS. She is deflecting to avoid confronting her issues….

and she has openly stated that she cannot see herself opening up to a C.

… this part is probably true…

As she says, she doesn't even open up to her friends. I'm afraid if MC is going to happen, it is going to have to be at the level of insistence on my part. Do you think that is a good idea?

Do you think seeing a lawyer is a better idea? Of course insisting, pushing the issue, even demanding if you have to, is a GOOD idea. Why would you think not addressing your M issues is not? Remember Happy Giant? Everyone, even you I think, saw the value in getting his wife into counseling at any cost. What is different about your sitch?

If I couple those concepts with serious work on myself (both self-improvement and making myself more attractive), it could work to develop the passion that I want.

Wanting the passion is fine, but put it on the back burner for now. That is putting the cart before the horse, IMO. Not just because of the unnecessary pressure it will put on your W, but because of the resentment that will build in you. You have a tendency to set yourself up for disappointment. This is a good example of that. Have more respect for yourself.

I do have an IRL friend that is absolutely convinced my W was sexually abused, but I can't see how that is true, and is probably more a projection of his life experiences.

I have long suspected this too. I would not dismiss your friend’s ideas out of hand. Keep an open mind on this. It could very well be THE reason your W does not want to go into C.

On the positive side, her parents are very nice people, willing to do AOS at the drop of a hat, from cooking meals, to helping clean, to watching kids

Makes it that much harder to pull away and be your own person, doesn’t it? Just like Marie on Everybody Loves Raymond, don’t ya think?

Was there anything specific about my W's FOO that you thought might be revealing?

I do recall now that you mentioned this aspect of her family before. And I do think that is EXTREMELY important. A C will see this immediately. Your W is still a child. You did not marry her, you married her mother. Your W has got to “individuate,” or become her own person with her own thoughts, her own sense of responsibility, her own accountability. This will not be easy for her. She is still wrapped in an illusion of how wonderful her parents are. I was wrapped in the same illusion years ago. It is not easy to confront the fact that your mother is not the wonderful, self sacrificing, all loving person that she has brainwashed you to believe. Remember Marie form the TV show. That is your best model to guide you here. That was and is my mother in many ways.

[fearless]

Cobra,

You stress the trauma in both Chrome and his wife's lives and you comment to me that "Asking Chrome or his wife to just open up is way too threatening." Yet you make remarks like below:

The only way to slay that elephant is to bring it into the open.

So my suggestion in talking to Mrs.Chrome about her issues with accepting compliments would be more threatening than "Confront her withdrawal. It is a behavior you want to change."?

Why? What do you have against confronting the person in denial?

I said I struggled because I know it can be good to deal with denial in a straight forward way. OTOH first confronting someone else's denial can be a deflecting technique away from your own denial issues. Second for the reason you brought up - trauma. Third is that MrsChrome would probably ACCURATELY point to Chrome's issues which could just send them into a pointless downward spiral.

If her denial was about a life threatening situation then obviously I think intervention is required regardless. In this case, I do not see that the situation is at the point where Mrs Chrome MUST be involved. Please know that I absolutely agree that IF Mrs.Chrome was fully engaged in this process I think it would be GREAT and help things move more quickly.

Usually they are the one holding the relationship hostage.

Since I believe that Chrome has his own issues with denial, I would say that this argument could be used to say let us deal with Chrome's denial FIRST.


I don't think he has pushed his wife at all.

Well his wife does.

I believe he HAS albeit in a very passive-aggressive manner. Just because he has not pushed her directly does not mean there has not been pushing. She seems painfully aware of his unhappiness with her and the relationship. She accurately hears something more in his pleas for a "better relationship" including hearing a critique of who she is (whether Chrome means it or not she is hearing that he wants her to change). Thus Chromes quote "any convo about the R she will afterwards describe as "one of those bad convos."

But a man can only suck up to his wife for so long until the resentment builds to a level that he blows.

Same thing for a woman.

The point is to realize whose responsibility it is to STOP sucking up. Chrome is the only one who can change HIS actions and reactions toward his wife. He CAN do it on his own. Is it difficult? Is it painful? Will he make mistakes? YES, but it IS possible for him to change on his own.

This is the ONE area where I believe you and I truly seem to disagree completely. I think that one person dealing with their issues alone CAN affect a marriage positively. This approach is guaranteed to make that person healthier and happier. As far as the marriage there is no guarantee although it may take the pressure off the marriage and the other person which allows some positive feeling to begin to flow BACK INTO the marriage and potentially inspire the other partner to want to make some changes also. It also gives credibility to the partner who has obviously done their work. And getting yourself healthy puts you in the place of being able to handle more difficult relationship issues.

I know you have brought NOPs marriage into the discussion before but, while for complete disclosure I know next to nothing about their situation and process, I think it is clear that NOPs had a healthy self-esteem already. What I propose is to get Chrome to that healthy state before pushing on to the "The only way to slay that elephant is to bring it into the open" idea.


Have you read Passionate Marriage?


I have not read "The passionate marriage" yet. Like I have mentioned there has been no problem with passion in my relationships but I am willing to learn more. Here is what I found on the web-site and it seems to me they have the same opinion I have about a person needing self-validation. I realize there will be much more detail in the book however this general philosophy seems to fit exactly what I have been writing.

Relying on your partner to give you a positive reflected sense of self (as most people do) limits intimacy and desire... Most marital enrichment approaches emphasize other-validated intimacy: expecting empathy, reciprocity, and validation from your partner when you disclose. "The Passionate Marriage Approach" emphasizes self-validated intimacy; validating and accepting your own disclosures, and soothing your own heart. This shift allows you to resolve emotional gridlock, intimacy problems, sexual boredom and low desire, and develop a more passionate loving relationship.

[mrsc]

I think that one person dealing with their issues alone CAN affect a marriage positively. This approach is guaranteed to make that person healthier and happier. As far as the marriage there is no guarantee although it may take the pressure off the marriage and the other person which allows some positive feeling to begin to flow BACK INTO the marriage and potentially inspire the other partner to want to make some changes also. It also gives credibility to the partner who has obviously done their work. And getting yourself healthy puts you in the place of being able to handle more difficult relationship issues.

Fearless, I agree with this. I do see similarities between Chrome's M and mine. In some situations, the only thing someone can do is their own work. I don't think we can FORCE our partner to MC. Even if they agree to go because we've been pressuring them, it doesn't mean it will be productive. If a person is very closed off to their spouse and their friends, why would we think they would magically start talking to a C? What if they withdraw even more? What if they resent their partner even more?

It sounds like Chrome and his W just get on the R hamster wheel and just go around and around and around. I don't really see how MC right now would change that. But if Chrome were to keep confronting himself and doing his work so that he gets to a healthier place, then he might be able to effect some change in the M, or at least shake things up enough so that his W is forced to change because of the R dynamics, not because Chrome directly forced her.

Then again, what do I know?

BTW fearless, I looked at that People Pleaser stuff you posted on another thread and found that it describes me! I couldn't find anything online about how to change that or deal with it. Do you have any resources? Some of the Injustice Collector characteristics fit H. I would love to find a book or info that talks about dealing with this within the context of an M.

[fearless]

Chrome,

For a bit more clarification on this point

Chrome: What I meant was that my drive to pursue the EA could have resulted in me losing everything else. Not the same situation as rationally and thoughtfully giving up other things to pursue a single minded goal, but the end result could have been the same.


Fearless: My point is to be careful of the power of intention. I think you were vulnerable to the EA PRECISELY because you have been so focused on the feeling of passion without thinking about what else is important to you which you do have and about the STEPS to getting passion.

In my example my XH stopped spending as much QT time with me and I began to feel confused about how HE felt about me. The focus was clearly on the fact that I wanted/needed QT to feel loved by him. I did not need QT to feel good about myself. So while I had friends and coworkers that wanted to spend QT with me, it did not fill the actual void which was QT from my XH. I believe that mindset is partly what left me "affair-proof."

OTOH if I was not as aware and self-validated, I may have confused the situation by actually needing QT for validation of XH's love for me AND for validation of myself. In that case the QT "validation" from other people, male coworkers and friends, would have left me susceptible to romantic feelings.

Does that make sense? Feel free to answer honestly because I am still working on refining this explanation.