It's just about the same as this one. The former was "Snookchaser", I just forgot my login and had to create a new one. It's been a while, but I'll try to insert a link to my last thread.
I'm going to try and respond in smaller doses because I know I tend to drag my sentences and thoughts on. I can edit myself fairly well but I hope you'll forgive me for not taking the time.
Her feeling that the opening up was about you needing something from her that was the problem (both of your problems).
It was a convoluted sentence. I was trying to say that your talking to her about your "pits" was not the problem. It was what you wanted from her and what she thought you wanted from her (2 separate issues) that were the problems. If she does have issues (which I think we know she does), then her capability of healthily dealing with your issues is diminished. Still convoluted but hopefully a little better.
I think that probably has a lot to do with my self-esteem and my W's guarding of her own emotions. I always overthink convos, wondering constantly about the other persons feelings and thoughts... I am so worried that my actions will drive the person away that I sometimes hold back far too much. ... I can easily see that the people who admire me the most, who tend to want to hang out with me, are the people that I have been very frank and open with. And I can see that I have often misconstrued other people's insecurities as a dislike for me.
So you do have a pretty good handle on why you behave like you do and how things can work better when you are more secure. That shows you have done some substantial work.
My guess is that your emotions kind of spill out to your wife. You might go from holding them back to just getting tired and dumping them out. If you take take what you've learned in positive interactions with others, can you see that you opened up to them in a more self confident way?
The issue is to integrate what you know works and feels better into your marriage. That is difficult for you because 1) your wife already has certain opinions and feelings (some of those are her issues and some of them ARE because of how you have felt and acted in the past) that will not change overnight and 2) You do not feel confident in your feelings about yourself and in your wife's feelings toward you.
Your childhood does not mean that you cannot get to that point of feeling accepted for who you are now. I also see this as an issue you can work on purely by yourself for awhile; leave your wife's issues alone for the time being. It is like the flight attendants say on the plane; you have to put your oxygen mask on first before you can help someone else. You have some significant steps left to take on your own before looking to your wife and marriage. I am NOT saying that once you are on track the marriage will just magically be great. You will feel better about yourself which should help the marriage feel better and your wife will see changes which will HELP with the next steps. But first steps first and that is continuing on your own path.
I know it is hard. Think about this like the person who is 100 pounds overweight and wants to be able to lose 100 pounds. Now they tell you they cannot start exercising and eating right because they are 100 pounds overweight. You try to explain that they have to start the process by exercising and eating better and they keep telling you that all they want is do is lose 100 pounds. Can you see how frustrating it seems to the outside observer? You are trying to tell them how to reach their goal but they are so fixated about how far away they are from their goal they cannot get started. Of course this makes sense psychologically. They have to be ready to give up a certain amount of comfort they have plus there are a lot of fears along the way. "What if they cannot do it?", "What if people laugh at them?" "What if they lose the weight AND STILL do not feel happy about themselves?" and many more reasons I am sure.
Start looking at what you can do.
Do not let what you cannot do interfere with what you can do. John Wooden
If you want to get inspiration, John Wooden and Bear Bryant have some of the most inspiring quotes out there.
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
Most emotions I showed were either not returned at all, or responded to with a defensive reaction to push me away.
Your wife definitely has her own reasons for doing this and it cannot be your job to fix this. It would help if you can realize that the point of expressing emotions IS NOT to get certain reactions from people. You express emotions because it is how you feel. The fact is that how people respond to your emotions is more about them than about you. Gaining some confidence in this area would relieve the pressure your wife feels when you express emotion. I am guessing that she does feel that pressure whether you have ever articulated it or not.
My intelligence My ability to care deeply for people My sense of adventure
So the traits you like about yourself. How often to you use these traits? How do others (including your wife) see these traits reflected in your life? Are you able to care for people without needing anything in return?
Her good looks Her good mothering ability Her intelligence
You aren't sure how she feels about these traits since she doesn't accept compliments well. So if your kids are doing something amazing (as kids are prone to do :)) and you look at your wife and say "we have such great kids and you are such a great mother," her reaction would be?? Or if you look at your little girl and say "you are as beautiful as your mother."
My W says the same things, and it is absolutely true. I have a good job, great kids, stable income, etc etc etc. But the thing I want the MOST in life is a passionate R. I realize that grasping for it won't get it. The way to get out of quicksand is to stop flailing, the best way to tread water is to float, neediness is very unattractive, etc etc etc. But without a passionate marriage, none of it seems worthwhile. That's just me.
I am going to be a little picky here but I want you to see the power of your words and thoughts. You say you MOST want a passionate relationship. Are you saying you would GIVE UP your great job, great kids, stable income, etc. for this passionate relationship?
Last edited by fearless; 04/04/0712:10 PM.
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
I can see how social isolation can produce particular issues later in life. With me it was exacerbated by going from nearly complete isolation through high school, to being thrust into a Mecca of social activity in college (the college I went to had one of the highest average parent's salaries in the nation). I remember going to a social the first night in college and feeling like a fish out of water, other people were talking about their $200,000 debutante (sp?) parties or their new beemers. ROUGH first semester in collge for sure. Lots of drowning in alcohol.
The lack of assertiveness and control definitely parallels with me. My dad would beat us if we laughed out loud. When I got old enough that the beatings were not as effective, he used extreme verbal abuse (which we had to take or even more priveledges were revoked) to control. I definitely never learned how to control a situation or assert myself, because that always led to pain.
I can also see your point about how I developed some of my P/A behavior here, although I NEVER tried to stick to dad behind his back. That would have resulted in another level of punishment.
I can see how my lack of control, assertiveness, etc. negatively impacts my life. We have heard time and time again here how women want the men to be in control, which creates a feeling of safety necessary for intimacy.
I do experience guilt/shame issues when I realize that I am exerting control. I have even had to struggle with that in my teaching. It is easy to waffle between wanting to help and being strict so that the students are forced to put in the effort. But so far I have had difficulty translating my attitudes in the classroom to home. Granted, teacher/student is a different level than H/W, but the same basic principles apply. I have gotten to the point now where I can "stick to my guns" and not feel too bad when students beg for extra credit. But at home, I still struggle mightily with falling into placating behavior.
Your paragraph about pushing in a leading way without controlling or trying to do the work for someone does make sense to me. Perhaps it would be helpful to make the discussion concrete. How might I push the issue that she only wants to have sex every other month?
I realize that our R will have major ups and downs as we go through this process. You can see it from the success stories to the ones still stuck. I'm not sure things necessarily have to get worse before they get better, but I am prepared for that eventuality. Things have been worse than they are now, although we are at a pretty low point.
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They closed a MAJOR loophole of curiosity you had.
Actually no they didn't, because the were not really PA's. I still struggle quite a bit with the combination of lack of physicality in my M with the fact that a PA would be ridiculously easy to start and would provide me with experiences I may never acheive with my W. That is me being honest. I do feel strong enough to withstand that temptation though.
My mother was withdrawn from me, not the other way around.
Explore the secondary and tertiary effect to your heart's content. This discussion is helpful to me.
Chrome
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
I can edit myself fairly well but I hope you'll forgive me for not taking the time.
No forgivness needed. I appreciate very much any time you can give trying to help me, and I completely understand editing problems. There have been a few times I have left out a 'not.'
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It was what you wanted from her and what she thought you wanted from her (2 separate issues) that were the problems.
I heartily agree. Every time we R talk (had one last night), it is clear that we don't communicate well. If I had a dime for every time I said "I want our R to be better and stronger" and she responded "you are just trying to change me" ...
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If she does have issues (which I think we know she does), then her capability of healthily dealing with your issues is diminished.
I do see the wisdom in giving her space to work out her own issues, without having to deal with mine, thus I am trying the "no grasping" Burgbud thing or "lean back" blackfoot thing. But the problem I am having is a nagging feeling that left to her own devices, she wouldn't try to solve anything. I guess I could just focus on her problems in our convos, but that does not seem equitable (or I imagine pleasant), plus it would most likely just reinforce the "you are trying to change me" mentality.
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If you take take what you've learned in positive interactions with others, can you see that you opened up to them in a more self confident way?
I can see that yes. But I can also see that her resentment and deflections are trumping any self-confidence I have.
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But first steps first and that is continuing on your own path.
I do see the wisdom in that. My problem is that I allow interactions with my W to torpedo my own sense of self-worth. I have a difficult time seeing how in a marriage that you can divorce the two enough.
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Start looking at what you can do.
I definitely see that I allow a diseased view of the current oveerall situation and the future get in the way of making baby step progress. I have a feeling that I still do manage to make most of the necessary baby steps, but I would probably be more effective if I didn't worry so much that no matter what I do, I could still fail.
Chrome
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
It would help if you can realize that the point of expressing emotions IS NOT to get certain reactions from people.
I do get this point clearly wrt to say gifts an AOS, but I'll have to think about it more to decide if I attach a need for certain responses to my being emotional. Obviously I am crying, it would be great if someone would comfort me, or if I am happy that someone else smiles and laughs along with me. I'll have to think about it to decided if I'm consciously or subconsiously seeking a response.
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I am guessing that she does feel that pressure whether you have ever articulated it or not.
Of that I have no doubt.
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I said: My intelligence My ability to care deeply for people My sense of adventure
Fearless responded: So the traits you like about yourself. How often to you use these traits? How do others (including your wife) see these traits reflected in your life? Are you able to care for people without needing anything in return?
Nearly every day. As a teacher, intelligence and caring are essential. And since I love the topics I teach and have the opportunity to put them at play in exotic locations with fun people often, I hit all three. As far as caring without needing in return, I am trying to have needs in my marriage without it being a response to a particular act on my part. I am not bothered when my W does not return an affection. I am bothered that my W is not affectionate.
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You aren't sure how she feels about these traits since she doesn't accept compliments well. So if your kids are doing something amazing (as kids are prone to do :)) and you look at your wife and say "we have such great kids and you are such a great mother," her reaction would be?? Or if you look at your little girl and say "you are as beautiful as your mother."
I have said the "great kids = great mother" line a number of times (when it struck me for a particular reason) and her typical response is to either change the subject, point out something not so great about the situation, or focus completely on the positive kid behavior. Really, all I would really want out of the situation is for her to in general know that I appreciate many things about her. I personally love to use the line (because it is true) when someone compliments my kids on how adorable or cute they are, "thankfully they got their looks and personality from their mother." I get a lot of rolled eyes or squinty-eyed "are you serious" looks. Lotsa fun.
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I am going to be a little picky here but I want you to see the power of your words and thoughts. You say you MOST want a passionate relationship. Are you saying you would GIVE UP your great job, great kids, stable income, etc. for this passionate relationship?
Three responses to this question. One, in some sense it is a false dichotomy. I shouldn't have to give up other good things to get the thing I want the most. There is no reason why I cannot have great job/kids/income/passion at the same time. Second, honestly I did come close in the EA to doing that very thing (giving up all the other good things for some passion). Third, ultimately it may come down to doing that very thing. If I D, I will probably have very little custody of my children, I will have to quit my job and lose my stable income (although I am confident I could find another). So in essence I would be giving up those other things in an attempt to acheive passion. But my sincerest hope is to have it all, and I think it can be done.
Chrome
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
I have been keeping up with your sitch when I can, following some of the ideas Blackfoot has given you on being more alpha, more confident, projecting a secure zone for your wife’s fears so she can relax and open up to you. I think there is merit in his ideas, but I also think that situations like yours may not be the best place for those ideas to take hold.
The fact of the matter is that both you and your wife have strong fears and have spent your entire lives looking to others for support and security. For you to suddenly stop that and become something else is not realistic, IMO. It can be done, but over time, like maybe 3-5 years? I mean realistically, you have been on this board for going on 2 years now. You have made great changes, but the core feelings and anxieties you had in the beginning are still there, right?
You have spent much of the past year working on yourself, seeing a self esteem counselor, trying to act “as if,” holding in your depression and sadness. You wife has stepped up a little, but I wonder just how much more the two of you can continue doing this? There may be a point of diminishing returns, KWIM?
So following on my earlier post that you consider “wielding your power,” maybe you should think about stepping up the pressure on your wife to get into regular counseling. I think a lot can be done to move the M along faster if she can get on board. Right now you have taken all blame for your EA, done all the work yourself, have moved to a house across from her parents, and have actually given her enough security that she does not have to do anything. That won’t help the M.
I saw you post somewhere that one morning you had your daughter on your knee, and she was chatting with you. You had thoughts about what it would be like to D, that you would not get to do this with her. What I want to mention is that sword cuts both ways. In case of D you will only get to see your kids half the time, but your wife will also only get to see them half the time.
This is not to drive home any more guilt than you already have, but avoiding D is in your interest as well as your W’s. As the father you have a right to your kids 50% of the time, and the court will give that to you. Getting your W to work on her issues to help save the M is in her interests too, not just yours. I think you should pick up the pace to have her go to counseling and begin tackling some of her demons. I see your pushing for this as helping her. I don’t think she would like to idea of not being with the kids for a few days each week. So you should NOT feel guilty about making her confront her stuff. IMO, she is half to blame for this whole situation coming up in the first place.
If you cannot press this issue, out of guilt or whatever, then what happens? You get depressed, then resentful, then eventually you blow up. Who is that helping? I think you have to be more willing to “wield your power” to push issues along more, though in a respectful, controlled way, but certainly do not avoid those issues.
So this is where I think Blackfoot’s idea may have hurt you in some ways. Trying to be someone other than who you are has made you vacillate back and forth between too much alpha, too much confidence and too much depression. That vacillation may be scaring your W. Steady state is more important, IMO. That means you have to just be yourself, like you are around your friends.
I also think you need to tell your W what you are saying here. Does she really know how you feel? Would having her read your thoughts on this board be such a bad thing? At some point you will need to do a little cage rattling.
On the list of issues by category that you provided:
Low skills in expressing my wants/needs I do not feel like she respects me I have difficulty respecting her POV on many of our R issues. .
Are all three of these things really that difficult to overcome?
I am unsure of what she wants from me in this R
I am guessing that she does not really know herself. In fact, how could she if she shuts down emotionally. And who would she have learned from regarding a warm, open, loving marriage? Not her mother, by what you say. She is going to have to break away from the emotional support of her parents in order to explore the world of emotions, and becoming her own woman, rather that staying as mommy’s girl.
You know, many men come to understand at some point that they have to decide between siding with their mother or their wife. The same goes for women. I get the feeling your W has never committed to you, that she keeps a strong connection to her parents. Breaking this tie will be scary for her, but for the good of the M, as well as the kids, she is going to have to face this one day. You protecting her from this choice is not doing either of your any favors. Remember, “wield the power.” Ask her to find a balance between:
Her desire for me to just enjoy being with the family (watching TV or hanging with the ILs) versus my desire for family activities and Difficulty understanding her need for alone time at the expense of time with each other.
Getting back to my earlier thoughts, I really think you focusing only on improving yourself is going to be a tough road, especially if you tend to slip into depression. Why go there? Open things up with your wife. Explain yourself in more detail, expressing your fears and vulnerabilities, but in an optimistic way, showing a path out of this mess. I think that path should include her, having her give you some support and assurance as you do your part and vice versa.
Lets say for argument sake that you can transform yourself into the perfect calm, balanced, self assured, confident and safe alpha male, the man of your W’s dreams. Do you think that will be enough for her to change? Or will having someone like that only give her more reason to stay as she is? Her parents protected her and gave her security. Look what came of it. That is why I do not think Blackfoot’s ideas always work. With a sufficiently confident and self assured woman, they might work fine. But your W has too much insecurity and shame to be able to step up to her responsibilities, to “wield HER power.” Yes you need to first create a safe environment for her, but after that the responsibility shifts to her. Lack of progress in the M will drag you down, and then drag her down. I think it also causes you to have
Insecurity about my own POV.
IMO, what you two need to do (at least for a while) is validate each other more, to give more security and comfort so you each feel safe enough to stand on your own and not require the support of outsiders. You each seem to have more than enough compassion and empathy for one another. But you each seem reluctant to take it to the next step and give comfort and ACCEPT comfort (without guilt). Neither of you are willing to “wield your power,” but each of you complain because you want the other to give some power (ie, validation). Do you see the disconnect?
In some ways you each have one foot out the door and that keeps you both from committing to each other and therefore having the confidence to confront your own issues, in full view of each other. I’ve always felt like you still play a charade with your W, and she with you. Time to try a little radical honesty, IMO. Let me know if any of this is correct or not.
Your paragraph about pushing in a leading way without controlling or trying to do the work for someone does make sense to me. Perhaps it would be helpful to make the discussion concrete. How might I push the issue that she only wants to have sex every other month?
I don’t have any magic formulas. Just tell her what you want and keep bringing it up. But I think you need to lay the groundwork so that this does not backfire on you. Pushing too much could cause her to pull back into her shell. So I think the radical honesty about what you fear, what you want, where you see the M going, explanations on why you did things in the past and why you do things now, could all help her to control her anxiety.
But talk to her about what she is feeling. If she starts giving excuses why she can’t do this or that, ask her why. Keep asking for your understanding, but also for hers as well. I doubt she really understands how she feels and why. Talking things out will help the both of you.
Let her know that the frequency of sex is not your main focus, but do tell her how you feel about it, and how much you get worked up over the lack of sex. Like MrsCAC mentioned in her sitch, and my W in mine, your W may hear you say that you need more sex, but she does not really get it, instead writing it off as some disgusting male need. Keep up the discussion. I do think it might help if she read up on this board.
Every time we R talk (had one last night), it is clear that we don't communicate well. If I had a dime for every time I said "I want our R to be better and stronger" and she responded "you are just trying to change me" ... But the problem I am having is a nagging feeling that left to her own devices, she wouldn't try to solve anything. I guess I could just focus on her problems in our convos, but that does not seem equitable (or I imagine pleasant), plus it would most likely just reinforce the "you are trying to change me" mentality.
I am a bit confused. Are you or are you not trying to change her? You say no to her and yet you have a "nagging feeling" that she will not change if you let up. I do not think she is imagining the feeling that you want her to change. I think the honest answer is "YES I want you to change so we can have a better and stronger relationship." She senses this and when faced with the reality of admitting that you want her to change you back off.
My opinion is that the better answer that would include her is to say "I want us both to change so we both can have a better relationship." And be specific about more general issues to begin with - "I want you to be able to open up to me more emotionally and I would like you to have more self confidence. I like to compliment you because you are a wonderful woman but you do not seem to like to hear me say those things why?" Also you could ask her what she wants from you.
But I can also see that her resentment and deflections are trumping any self-confidence I have.
Then you are not as self confident as you think.
My problem is that I allow interactions with my W to torpedo my own sense of self-worth.
Same thing.
I have a difficult time seeing how in a marriage that you can divorce the two enough.
I did it. I felt like I was a good person and felt good about who I was. (well with all the normal occasional self doubts.) and nothing my XH did while we were married hurt that self confidence. What was an issue was that within the marriage I started to feel unloved by him and was unsure if I was a good enough wife. And Yes there is nothing I could do to make myself feel like he loved me. HOWEVER that did not effect how I saw myself. This is an important difference. Also kept me sane when he left and I lost my job.
I would probably be more effective if I didn't worry so much that no matter what I do, I could still fail.
Failure is not fatal; failing to change will be. John Wooden
I just watched a great special on John Wooden and UCLA b-ball. Bill Walton said that he wrote Coach Wooden's quotes on sticky notes and put them in his kids lunch bags!
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
