Wow, SBH, you're scaring me thoroughly. I'd be VERY interested in your thoughts after reading "Passionate Marriage" by David Scharch, especially if any of what he writes changes your view of these matters at all. He got an endorsement from Dr. Masters, btw.
Quote: I teach a course in gender & sexuality, albeit only once every couple of years.
I did not know this. You are a great resource for this board, SBH!
Quote: Still, my perception is that there really and truly are asexual or naturally celibate people - a category of folk that perhaps needs its own advocacy group.
I think you might find some interesting information on asexuality and its inevitable advocacy group at www.asexuality.org. Yes, I found it while researching the possibility that my wife was a charter member. I have since determined that she is just a very low drive. Believe it or not, she once declared to me that she has a "normal" sex drive. I suppose it depends on what one's definition of "normal" is. I have since tried to avoid making her feel "abnormal" or placing her drive or our relationship in any type of comparative continuum. Just like I really don't think I'm "high drive" in any other sense than when you compare me to her. I am not a sex fiend. I just like it. What's not to like?
Quote: But I can easily see how a woman with lower drive, whose husband ALWAYS has higher drive - no matter what she might experience - would believe that no HDW's exist at all. It's just too counter to her own experience.
That's where my W fits in. But for someone who is so tolerant of other people's views in general, she has such a narrow view here that it has to have some kind of psychological component...defensive in nature, I would guess.
But I'm not a shrink, and I doubt I would get her to go see one, so I have to try to get through this with my wits and my "brass balls" intact.
Hairdog - whose wife initiated a kiss last night, sniffed him and said he smelled "manly."
hairdog wrote: -------------- Hairdog - whose wife initiated a kiss last night, sniffed him and said he smelled "manly." --------------
Did you ask her what she meant? Was that a compliment or was it a dig?
Don't be offended, HD, I am not picking on your wife, but let me ask a few questions.
Does she belittle you often?
Are you often the object of her disdain?
Does she feel free to discuss the "ineptitude of men" or otherwise man bash with you?
Are you letting her step all over your boundaries? Do you ever tell her to stop, mid sentence?
Let me remind you of a couple of things that you already know.
Regardless of which politic bent a person is, a few facts remain indisputable. Women and Men are two sides of the same coin. Neither is better than the other, BOTH have strengths and weaknesses. Playing up those weaknesses for the purpose of control is WRONG. Furthermore, every single person on this planet has something that they do well. Digging out fault in a person in a non-constructive manner is simply unnecessary.
If my wife likes the way I smell, she can say so. If she has a history of liking the way I smell after I have been working hard outside, then she smiles and tells me I smell manly, it is a compliment. If on the the other hand, my wife has a history of not liking men in general and tells me I smell manly, there would be swift action on my part to determine exactly what she meant.
Just my $0.02 worth, HD.
Please know, I am pulling for you! -NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
I wondered when someone would get around to asking whether it was a compliment or a slam. I asked her, too. She said it was a compliment, that I smelled clean but a little musky. She actually nuzzled my neck...it was nice.
However, I'd have to answer yes to most of your other questions, although I don't let her step on my boundaries as much as she used to. When she makes some generalization about men, I call her on it, and turn it around, asking her what she would say if I said "all" women did bla bla bla. Just like she opened up my eyes to the suffering of women (well, some women), I am working on her to open up her eyes on the fact that not "all" men are womanizing creeps, among other things.
Hairdog - who is suspicious about the nuzzling for other reasons he may go into later.
Thanks, Hairdog, for the asexuality link. What I'm finding is that the academic literature is sometimes (often) at variance with the self-help literature or the online community information. First of all, people who read books like Passionate Marriage or SSM are usually better educated and more proactive than the general population. At any rate, I have become convinced that there are some people who for all intents and purposes are asexual (and anthropologists writing on this subject are beginning to include "asexual" alongside, hetero, homo and bi- categories. I can remember a time, btw, when the mainstream research insisted there were NO bisexual people - and a lot of us went to college in that era. I am glad to hear that your wife thinks she has a sex drive. It would of course be a stretch for her to actually look into the literature on sexuality, physiology, etc. But her neck-nuzzling behavior interests me. Research on pheromones is controversial, but there is a Harvard biologist (female, her name escapes me) who believes that without someone in the relationship producing testosterone-related pheromones/biochemistry, there isn't going to be a lot of active sex-seeking behavior. That's her explanation for the small amount of sex reported in several lesbian couple studies. Of course, females can produce those pheromones as well, and it looks like women need very little T to get their engines running. Perhaps your wife is discovering that, on her own.
I have just ordered PM and will read with interest. I'm teaching the gender and sexuality course in the fall and right now, my syllabus outline focuses almost entirely on physiological states and sexuality - there's just so much in that one arena and frankly, it doesn't get taught very often. For example, in research menopause, I learned that unless women fantasize erotically at least three times a week, their levels of testosterone drop to near zero. So it becomes a mind thing, to get your body to produce any sex hormones at all (remembering that most women have lost nearly all their progesterone and estrogen at menopause - although not entirely the case for every woman). Women who actually have satisfying sex once a week and fantasize about it more often than that remain much more sexual than those who don't. Someone should be researching the effects of these hormones on such things as vaginal dryness, various arousal responses, etc. (It's always been said it's all estrogen, it may not be so straightforward - and wouldn't you know it, the research is VERY sketchy). Male sexual health and viagra related research is rampant.
I'm sure some research is being done somewhere, I just use the basic resources like medline and Jama and the Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology to try and keep up, but I'm still in shock over the lack of research into the physiology of the female sexual response.
Quote: Someone should be researching the effects of these hormones on such things as vaginal dryness, various arousal responses, etc. (It's always been said it's all estrogen, it may not be so straightforward...
Here is some (admittedly anecdotal and small-sample) research for you... Just a few months ago, my W "suffered greatly" from vaginal dryness, discomfort, etc. She has been in full menopause for a number of years (she's 50). She was CONVINCED that menopause was TOTALLY to blame for our almost total lack of sex life (this despite MANY years pre-menopause with the same lack of sex life), and she was also convinced, I think, that sex was for all practical purposes over for her. I then bought PM and read it, and started practicing it. For the past month we've ML once or twice (usually twice) per week, and she's had NO problem with dryness or discomfort. There are still other issues, but I'm hopeful we'll get them worked out. I'm currently hurting over some recent issues surrounding our 25th anniversary, but I remain adamantly hopeful that we'll eventually be able to attain a true "Passionate Marriage".
Thanks for the info, SBH. I'll try to get her to start fantasizing. Well, she just called me, and here's some more info on why I think she was so cuddly last night. She wants me to go with her to look at a house. Granted, she just moved here from her prior address about one year ago, mainly to be closer to me, and so that I could be closer to my kids. This new move would definitely screw up the kids issue. I'd probably have to end up modifying the custody order.
Is she being cuddly because she's trying to seduce a positive reaction out of me? I don't know. I do know that I intend to tell her that I'm not interested in buying and moving into a house with a woman who's shown me that she's not that interested in working on the relationship.
Why does she want to move? She moved from acreage (about 6 acres) and privacy, to suburbia. She wants me to go look at a 100-plus year old home on 7 acres. Yikes, I've lived in an old house before, and, unless this one's been re-done, you end up coming home at the end of the day and seeing the 57 major things you need to do to keep the house standing. That, plus you now have 7acres, to mow, to cultivate, to plant, etc. Plus, of course, your job, your kids, etc.
I'll humor her for awhile, but I can't imagine leaving a house where I am literally 4 minutes away from my three older kids, 20 minutes from work, and have a yard that takes me about 25 minutes to mow, and chucking it all for the frontier life. Heck, this new house doesn't even have central air conditioning.
Quote: I do know that I intend to tell her that I'm not interested in buying and moving into a house with a woman who's shown me that she's not that interested in working on the relationship.
NOW you're talking! Now THAT'S a boundary. Hope you can grow a pair of brass ones, or maybe diamond... you're gonna need them.
Quote: I'll humor her for awhile...
Now why on earth would you want to do THAT? You know all too well what that'll get you. Your W is a strong woman, from what you say, so I think you'll need to stand up to her right away, or she'll walk all over you. Don't send mixed messages... you've stated things VERY well here. Go with that, and may the farce be with you (oops...)!
That would be the key issue for me, I think. Look, it was a huge sacrifice that your wife made in moving closer to you. HOWEVER, she knew what she was getting into when marrying a man with children. This is a smart lady we're talking about here! And I would politely point out to her that if you move away and drastically cut contact with them, then aren't you being the typical male who cuts out on his kids to follow his latest piece of arse?!
Having said that, I think your idea about telling her that you have no intention of moving unless your R can be worked on is brilliant. Sure, she'll be pissed at first but she will respect that you are standing up for yourself and insisting that the M not continue on in the lifeless vein that it has been. Trust me on this one, I am a temperamental chick myself.
BUT you'd better be willing for the consequences of that statement. If she is willing to do the work, then you could very well end up living on the farm!
Btw, that sounds like my dream home..
Take care and enjoy the cuddling while it lasts, you manly smelling sucka.
