Divorcebusting.com  |  Contact      
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 10 of 15 1 2 8 9 10 11 12 14 15
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,253
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,253
Pam, you're welcome.

IMHO, forgiveness is really at its heart about ourselves, not the other person. And I think a lot of it lies within our values and within our individual situations. And in what we do next, how we make amends. Also in whether we manage to use and identify our strengths to make ourselves whole again.

My H has said many times he will never truly forgive himself because he does not think he should be forgiven. I suspect that will be true for a long time to come. There is big work for him to do, I think, before he gets there.

One thing I've struggled with is why we choose to continue on paths that we feel this way about. I don't say this to judge anyone... I say it because I personally can't do it.

I've learned this from experience. My C once said to me that feelings of guilt from things we have done serve a very necessary purpose-- they define our conscience for us and show us where our behavior needs to change. So we can change the behavior and let the guilt dissipate with our healing and amends (we're not doing that anymore, so there is no basis for continued guilt)... or keep doing the same thing and be wound up in pseudo-guilt or self pity.

This helped a lot when I was trying to change my own behaviors.

Joanne, I'm glad you found that bit about pain useful. It is probably the key thing DBing has taught me.

A lot of times this is us not dealing with the vestiges of pain, not taking control of our life, making excuses, and not taking a good look at our values or the meat of DB principles. Big tunnel, no cheese.

Joanne, do we have the same OW? I've come to have compassion for the pain she must have been in to be that destructive and hurtful. I do know she has issues with depression and previous negative R experiences, that in her words she "wants a partner so bad". That said, even if I do get to a forgiveness point with her (mostly I choose not to think about her much), I know that I don't respect her, that she's still doing it, and that I'm having a hard time respecting my H's behavior while he's in that R (there are factors for this beyond the fact that this A severely damaged our M).

I think we keep DBing in the sense that it becomes a way of life. Other than that, I have no answers.

wonder

Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,735
L
Member
Offline
Member
L
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,735
Hello Friends

I don't really have much time to post, but I found the last three pages of this thread fascinating.

GD, your long post about Passive Aggression rang so true for me, you could have been describing my H and M.

Some things I said or KNEW well before the bomb dropped -

1) H's sins were mostly of OMISSION not commision. I used to see this as 'not so bad', but the results are the same!

I obviously seem to go for this kind of man, as the other big love of my life was also PA, and had major childhood issues to deal with.

2) I felt, and even voiced to a couple of people close to me, my concern that were anything serious to happen to me, like finding myself in a wheelchair for life, my H would NOT stick around for me. This didn't propel me out of the marriage, just got me praying (and I, an atheist!) that nothing major happen to me.

3) Our sex life, which sort of mirrored the rest of our relationship, was mainly about his pleasure, and giving me what he thought I should like, or what worked with other women before me. When I tried to let him know what *I* liked, he was not interested or thought it too much work. Yes, he said that once!

I think that much of what I got out of our R was satisfaction that I provided HIM with security, love, affection etc. Not so much that I was getting it back in equal measure. There IS pleasure in giving, but even the best of us appreciate some receiving!

And stange, I was/am a pretty independent person, so how we came to this, I do not know.

If you were to ask my H about all this, he would not understand this at all, he would say, "I worked for this family and brought home the bacon" and that would be it.

Livnlearn


"The unexamined life is not worth living" - Socrates
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 348
P
Member
Offline
Member
P
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 348
Quote:

My WAH--who is well described by what's been written here--is now making an unseen-to-date effort to do things we'd agreed to and is repeating the exact behavior patterns of his 4 previous reconnection attempts. Yet is still pursuing divorce and living with OW. What would you all make of this? Closure? Friendship? Reconnection? Just curious what "the other side" thinks.

wonder





Hi Wonder,

Greetings from the Other Side. *smile* What your particular brand of WA is thinking I can’t tell you, but for the sake of argument, let’s try to imagine a typical WA (also known as Walkawayus vulgaris) Not an almost-WA, but someone who actually left their family for an OP and is currently living with him or her. To simplify pronounification, let’s assume the WA is a man. Our WA has a wife and 2.2 children. He left his family, say, three months ago, and the reality of real life with real OP is already starting to creep in (as opposed to fanasy life with fantasy OP). He is starting to miss his wife and his 2.2 children.

So far, so obvious. His LBW, being a smart cookie, has meanwhile found this site and is DBing. Our WA notices all the positive changes she has made, and that adds to this misery. Now, he is faced with two choices. He could go back to his family (obviously) or stay with OP. Now, the rusty wheels of the WA mind begin to turn. He’s already badly hurt his wife, and he knows it. She may chose to forgive him, but she may never really do it. Or even worse, she might become a WA herself at some point (and after all, who could blame her). So in his eyes, he’s already thoroughly discredited himself in front of her.

As for OP, he’s been telling her for months in what a terrible, stale, sterile marriage he was in. How his wife didn’t understand him, how they were together only for the children. He was quite eloquent, because he believed it himself at the time. Now, how to convey to OP that the terrible marriage might not have been so terrible after all, that he is torn up inside, and that he’s even considering going back? A big blow to his self-esteem and pride, and like it or not, those two things play a big factor in most men’s decisions. Not to mention that OP is probably in love with him, and he'd have to hurt her feelings, too. As far as he’s concerned, in order to go back, he’d have to make a fool out of himself in front of not only one, but two women, accept that he's made a lot of mistakes and caused a lot of pain. So he stumbles on, refuses to make a decision, alternates between burst of anger, tenderness and despair, and subconsciously hopes that someone, please, make the decision for him.

Could it be like this?

Pen

Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 693
G
Member
Offline
Member
G
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 693
Hi Pen,
I would like some insight into your thinking when you first WA. My link is below, but I will give you a quick synopsis.

W left after 10 years together. Left for married OM and he has now dumped her ( 1 month ago). She will not talk or email me. She avoids me I think because of guilt, shame or maybe she blames me for ruining her 1 chance of happiness with OM. ( I had nothing to do with it)

I know she is still in love (infatuated) with OM. She knows how much I was hurt from my first D because she left for married OM also. I don't think my W ever thought she would do this. We had discussions thru the years about that.

My wife still sees OM every day because he is her boss. She has not seen me since April 12. We have been dark for 2 months.

My question is do you think she may be thinking about me or us now that OM is gone.Also any other thoughts you had at that time would be helpful.

You can move this to my thread, Sorry Bets.

Learning to Live II


Randy Learning to Live II
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 4,885
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 4,885
Pen -- Your post is amazing. I'm going to try to bump up the thread that contains key info for newcomers to piecing...would you consider reposting your thoughts there as well?

Sage


Relax. Appreciate. Be calm. Laugh. Enjoy. Be secure. Be loving. Be loved. Don't personalize. Don't ASSume. Accept. Be grateful.
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 348
P
Member
Offline
Member
P
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 348
Quote:

Pen -- Your post is amazing. I'm going to try to bump up the thread that contains key info for newcomers to piecing...would you consider reposting your thoughts there as well?

Sage




Sure Sage - no problem at all. Consider it done!

Pen

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,253
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,253
Yes Pen! Not only "could it be" like this-- this is EXACTLY what it has been... minus the kids.

To my H's credit--- yes, despite all this destruction, he does get some credit, IMO-- he has attempted to talk with me about all of this where many WAs would not. Some of the talking was done when I was still processing lots of anger and pain-- some after I healed a lot of the raw stuff. Honestly, it is safe to say we resolved any marital issues that might have been weighing on either of us a very long time ago.

It is the stuff you talk about that remains.

He has told OW he still has feelings for me, that he misses me, that he's coming home... and did it a few times. He also told me he wanted OW to be OK with it, that she has been good to him and has good qualities along with all the negative ones he's told me about. Let's face it, she has been there for him when he would not allow me to be, yes, and he's cultivated the emotional attachment that comes from that. But she has also been a pretty destructive influence as well.

So perhaps he's just in the same place, going through the same motions and feeling the same feelings-- I don't know.

What gets me is that he's said he wants "whatever relationship I want to have with him" after the divorce... it's clear to me that he'd like to have me in his life still... and put all the responsibility on me for whatever the R looks like, or if it even exists. This where the WA mindset becomes maddening to one LBS.

Quote:

So in his eyes, he’s already thoroughly discredited himself in front of her.




Well, right again. The truth is that he has. He can always choose to change that by putting that in the past and taking on new actions, though. Not new superficial behaviors-- but new choices. It's hard work. No doubt.

I just go with the stated plan to be divorced so he can "be happy"--he knows how I feel about it-- and I keep finding myself on this line between stating reasonable behavior/boundaries and further influencing these feelings of "i can't do it--I've broken everything."

wonder

Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,562
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,562
wow - even MORE interesting thought provoking posts - pen, i have to say that you play devil's advocate very well - thank you for such an eloquently stated position of both sides of the story

while i process the things i need to process - this thought struck me as thought provoking all it's own

for those of you that use the bible as a guide, let me go to this forgiveness issue for a moment. in the lord's prayer, there is mention that we need to ask for forgiveness of our sins and to help us forgive others that have sinned against us

later it says that if we do forgive others that sin against us then our father will forgive us our sins, but that if we do not forgive others and their sins that our father will not forgive us

everyone with me so far???

so i got to thinking - when it says we must forgive others and their sins against us, would this include sins we commit against ourselves? is forgiveness of ourselves lumped in with the whole statement of having to forgive others in order to get forgiveness from our father?

i thought this very interesting - i know i for one am dealing with skeletons that i have come to the conclusion i haven't forgiven myself for yet...

here is something totally different i want to consider in this community thread...

someone whose opinion i value very highly recently told me that my husband confessing to me after everything was completely over and done with was a complete act of selfishness on his part - this relieved HIM of all his guilt and feelings of pain but laid upon all those feelings on to an unsuspecting innocent person

how do you feel about this? i am struggling with this right now in essense of the 'thing' i am working on right now...

am i making sense???

Joined: May 2004
Posts: 348
P
Member
Offline
Member
P
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 348
Quote:

Hi Pen,

I would like some insight into your thinking when you first WA.




Growing,

I was never a WA myself – I was an OW. So my insight into the WA’s mind are purely theoretical. But I’ll gladly look at your thread anyways, and offer what little insight I may have. Hope you’re taking care of yourself in this difficult time.

Pen

Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,626
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,626
Pen,

Your post was right on... add to it a WA paying for the OW D (and who knows what else) and add another layer to the whole mess. So... the WA never gets the gumption, courage, wisdom to LISTEN to that guilt and make the changes? And other than DB, is our only hope to wait and hope that the WA figures it out?

KK,

Yes, i do think your H confessing to you allieviated his guilt and was therefore very selfish. Especially if you did not know. Just one more thing to forgive HIM for. But, you may have been a valuable tool in his healing, even though it lead to more angst for you... a double edged sword. But then some couples don't want ANY secrets, and if your H did not confide in you, he would carry that with him always, and the OW would always have that power over him, that she knew something that you did not know.

My understanding of the self-forgiveness issue is that God offered up his only son in exchange for your sins. That he forgives you. And if He can forgive you, for you not to forgive yourself is selfish and only leads to self-pity... not good.

If the Lord can/does forgive you, who are you to withhold forgiveness from yourself and others? And I don't know that I agree that he does not forgive you if you do not forgive others, but I could be wrong about that. I believe that the Lord loves us and does not apply conditions to His forgiveness.

I hope you are doing okay. I miss our chats.


Relax. Appreciate. Be calm. Laugh. Enjoy. Be secure. Be loving. Be loved. Don't personalize. Don't ASSume. Accept. Be grateful.
Page 10 of 15 1 2 8 9 10 11 12 14 15

Moderated by  Michele Weiner-Davis 

Link Copied to Clipboard
Michele Weiner-Davis Training Corp. 1996-2025. All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5