I hope you guys don't mind if I park here for a while. After 10 months of DBing, H (STBX?) and I seem to be piecing something together, not exactly sure that it's our our M, but at least some kind of relationship/friendship. So the idea of piecing seems to match the spirit of what I'm doing, and I feel a bit funny about staying in newcomers. We've had a lot of honest talks, spent time together, and given each other emotional support, gone to a concert, discussed books. He was particularly helpful when my dad died six weeks ago, after battling cancer for a year. He flew across the country to come to my dad's memorial service, risking the dark looks of some of my family and friends, and held my hand throughout the service. (We also ML at his hotel, although he said that was a "one time thing.)
Brief recap: Me: 44 H: 41 Married two years, together five years. H seemed to be really happy, although there were a lot of outside stresses (my dad was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer, H's brother becomes homeless and an addict, H's promotion at work, new very pricey mortgage, etc) then dropped the bomb last August. Had an OW that he thought was THE ONE. She turned out to be very troubled, an alcoholic (how did I know that was coming? ), now is "seeing someone."
H wrote this yesterday (after I went out on a limb with some R talk, figured it was ok after all this time of DBing, and needed to break through to something :
Quote: Hi Azure,
I understand what you're saying and can't even begin to defend my noncommunication. If nothing else, I hope you realize that I continue to harbor such guilt because I know I wronged you and hit you with such a shocking blow. You're right. I was wrong.
The best I can do at this point is beg for your forgiveness some day and make sure not do the same thing to anyone else in the future.
I remember you got really, really angry when I tried to suggest that I just wasn't happy in the relationship. You were insulted and wouldn't accept that as an explanation, but it was true then and still true today. Maybe I owe you a deeper explanation, but at a gut level that was what I was feeling and for whatever stupid reason I couldn't explain much more than that without you goading me into saying mean and hurtful things about you that didn't really strike at my discontent.
What makes this all the more difficult is that I truly like and respect you, and want to stay friends. You are someone who I always want to have in my life in some fashion, but if you need to stay away from me for a while to maintain your sanity, or because you just plain hate me now, I'll have to accept that.
Anyway, I hope this is helpful in some twisted way.
Thanks for being number 1, and the warm welcome. (I was a little nervous... )
Well, we know our beloved, intrepid Wonder went to Mexico for a well-deserved vacation. In the absence of postcards, I can only assume that she a) found a fabulous new lover who appreciates her for who she is AND/OR b) decided to join or start a creative community of talented people and is moving there! I really hope she fills us in soon.
Azure, The letter was a little help I believe. However he didn't give you everything you need to hear. Just remember that communication is the key. If you keep those lines open you may get more info later.
Since he has opened up to you, I think you have cleared one huge hurdle. It is far better to talk to them than not have any contact.
It sounds like you have detached so much that you could move on without him if you wanted. I am afraid to get to that point. I think I am still in denial about the whole thing.
Keep DBing like you have. You are having some success.
I have kept up with your thread over in Newcomers for quite a while, though have seldom posted. Welcome!
I was struck by your mention of shame - many of us here ARE FIXERS and PERFECTIONISTS, I think, and therefore feel shame and irritation at our life not going to plan, sort of.
The work place analogy that you mentioned in your letter to H was also pertinent. Just weeks before the bomb dropped, I got a lovely letter from H while he was travelling for work, addressed to "My Wonderful Wife"! What do you make of that? This was just a letter, not an occasion where he was 'required' to be sentitmental either.
Ah well.
Livnlearn
"The unexamined life is not worth living" - Socrates
I'm not sure if I've ever posted to you before but I've been reading some of your thread and we have a common friend in Wonder. Welcome to Piecing and like UD I've always thought you belonged here too. Like you, many of us are piecing somthing together, it just might be ourselves.
Your H's letter struck home with me because I recieved a similar letter before. The noncommunication sucks and we all deserve some clarity and to be able to talk it out. Unfortunately my reaction was similar to what I believe yours was, I was offended and hurt and couldn't talk it out.
That was the past. Although I feel I have grown, I sometimes slip into those old reactionary modes when my emotions if unbridled could really cause havoc.
Guilt, fear, whatever their emotions are they are avoiding facing them and nothing I have done has helped faciliated the confrontation within themselves I had been trying for. I can't do or say anything that has helped, so instead I'm letting go. That doesn't mean no contact (although much less) and it does mean I am cordial, even nice at times, and certainly interesting and having my own life (this is for my health, the gravy is telling WAW about it).
I also recieved the want you as friends and in my life line. I have a completely different feeling on this one. Everyone is different and each sitc is different too. Do what feels best for you.
Welcome again and best of luck.
I think Wonder was flying to some remote Mayan village, maybe she met some dark skinned muscle bulging native?
LNL, Seattle,
Thanks so much. This issue of shame seems to have spoken to a lot of people. It will be interesting to discuss how guilt, fear and shame impact us. At least I would like to talk about it more, LNL. I was only even able to notice what a strong hold it on me from reading this book, "Fear and Other Uninvited Guests." How, as you said, Seattle, when we're in that space, it is so hard not responding out of reactivity. That has been one of the hardest lessons for me. In the past, I generally thought it was best to respond out of my “pure” emotions, that that was more honest, now I have come to see the value of waiting til I’m in a better space, which as just as honest but less likely to provoke the other person or lead me into craziness. This helps in the rest of life, too.
Here was my response to H. Haven't heard anything back so far. We probably both need to sit with the latest exchange and de-intensify.
Quote: Hi H,
Whew! Thank you for not getting defensive or mean. I was kind of girding myself for a tough reaction. I know these kind of things are hard to talk about. I thought your response was honest, and I appreciated the apology along with the understanding of what a shock it was from this end. Of course it is extremely hard on the ego level to hear that someone just wasn't happy with you, but luckily we are not all ego, but much more: soul and spirit as well.
Azure
Gak, there’s so much on my last thread that I wanted to respond to -- from H2H, GBO, Maya, NSN, Jenhoco, TomServo, Totally, Rae Jean, Ron, Randy, DFB, and Sun -- it seems sometimes a shame when a thread closes when a lot happens at once and you all have given me so much to think about. I’m going to go back today and read through it again, but I’ll start some response here.
NSN (No Stiff Necks)
Quote: Azure, this is definitely great progress. Of course, he has not given you more than "not happy," which still makes it more difficult. We want to know why, specifics. I believe that they don't have the answers themselves right now, cannot articulate them, or don't have the strength or courage to face whatever is going on deep down inside of them. I'm happy that you're seeing this progress from him b/c it is a start to healing. A lot of our spouses are not there yet. We hope they will get there - and get there soon. But, as everyone has said, it is their journey and they need to figure it out themselves, as hard as that may be for us.
Yes, NSN, this process is so much about patience. ARGH! It is really difficult not to point out what I think his problems and issues are. I get frustrated with his slow progress. It’s interesting, though, to keep in mind what I read recently in the Harriet Lerner book, Fear and Other Uninvited Guests -- something to the effect that when you find yourself “overfocusing” on someone else, it’s a sign of your own anxiety. (She doesn’t say this judgmentally). So lately I have to stop myself at times from overfocusing on H and (in my mind) solving his problems for him. As you said, they have to figure it out for themselves.s
GBO (Gonna Be OK)
Quote: I do believe that wisdom moves in the context of community. I'm glad too our paths have crossed too! A funny thing that in this misery I have found a group of folks from whom I am learning so much. I even believe that someday I will look back and see this time as good ?!? in some profound ways that overmatch the pain....someday.
GBO, that is a wonderful way to express that thought (love that turn of phrase about wisdom moving in context of community). In my good times, I am certain that I will look back and see this as good--thanks in very large, grateful part to what I’ve learned here. {Too bad I can't permanently dwell in that enlightened space - as you all have seen }
H2H (Heart2Heart)
Quote: And I'll be honest, my purpose for continuing to be the "See, the glass is half full" person here on your thread was to give you a nudge - a slight nudge into thinking further through this questions of What Now? I know you're a thinker (takes one to know one! ) and I just had a feeling that you needed to move a bit beyond the stuck place you were at.
So, now I see you courageously taking a new step, a new direction. And I like it. Your emails seem to be a good medium to communicate in - and I can't say if it's good DB'ing or not, but I'd probably 'ask' the same questions you did, and like you did, in a 'forum' that is easier to talk through this in.
I also liked the analogy - I know that my SO would much more understand a 'work' analogy than a R analogy.
I'm waiting right next to you to see his response. Remember it was him that opened this discussion by 'stepping out on a limb' - IMO it was an opening for a bit further discussion, though I don't have to remind you to take it only so far. Our guys need to 'rest & recover' after one of these types of talks!
Overall, I think you're doing just fine... by doing this you have let go of some of that fear.
H2H, you have no idea how much I appreciate your nudges, honesty, suggestions, and reminders about the half-full glass (and all contained within beautiful writing, which the English major in me appreciates.) Please keep me on track, here.
Randy , thanks for following me over here! The hard thing is for us to move forward without having any idea where it will lead.
Ron , I have been thinking about what you said about men and women in disagreement, and I would welcome any further thoughts you have. Thanks for all the encouragement. And I'm glad you liked the work metaphor!
Wanted to paste this over from GBO for me to think about:
Quote: Well, since you asked—
As an observer I think it’s great that he took responsibility for the noncommunication and the shock--he said it straight out, you are right and he was wrong for that. He acknowledges feeling guilty—no doubt this is responsible for untold amounts of alien behavior. He asks forgiveness. This is such a good start! So really, this is good if you want a friendship or closure or anything with him at all. A line of communication has been opened with a man who was really, really uncommunicative to the point of dropping the ultimate bomb on his unsuspecting wife.
On the other hand, as you note, he still doesn’t give you that deeper explanation. It does sound like your angry reaction made him miserable and clam up on that stuff—not surprising, nor was your anger unreasonable under the circumstances—oh boy do I know that sitch……….. and I would wonder if he even has an answer for himself about his discontent and what he wants.
I do know that my real DB’ing (even before I read the book or BB) started the day H told me about OW but more importantly explained some deep resentments and put them in terms of feelings for the first time in my life….he cried and I sat there in shock as the realization came over me in waves….this is how he was feeling all this time. I had always heard it as hostility before. Empathy started there.
I’m sorry if this hurts to raise it, but it’s so interesting to me that your H doesn’t see right now the possibility of healing between you that would lead to more than friends……even though you have barely begun this conversation. He is obviously in great guilt and (like my H I’m sure) feels the pain of that just to be around you. Now maybe he would never get there, or get to the point of being conscious enough to be there, and maybe you would be long gone, but this convo seems more like a starting point for something. Or at least, a better ending. Whatever you can handle is the important Q—I liked your 50-50 analogy—but empathy is always good if we can manage it. And leads to some amazing tranformations too.
Hmmmm, nice new digs you got here! Congrats on your new space! (You didn't think we wouldn't drop by unannounced did you?)
Quote: It’s interesting, though, to keep in mind what I read recently in the Harriet Lerner book, Fear and Other Uninvited Guests -- something to the effect that when you find yourself “overfocusing” on someone else, it’s a sign of your own anxiety.
Well, I needed to hear this today! I have been feeling anxious even though we have a movie date tonight (the sailing looks like it be rained out), a trip to our friends house tomorrow afternoon/evening, and he just asked me to sail w/ him on Sunday afternoon. Can you say "Predictable"?
"overfocusing"? it feels more like "mono-focusing"! Got to shift my eyes on to other things...
I think there are many good things to come for you. And I'll be around to make sure I don't miss seeing them!
), now is "seeing someone." 
Moe (Uh, Betsey)
)
