HD v LD

[eyesopened]

I'm starting this thread so that the "HD" women on this board will have a place to continue the discussion they started on my journal thread.

In response to some of their comments on my journaling thread--
Umm, ladies, I don't recall ever lumping all self-identified HD women together or saying that all or even any of you are driven by testosterone. I was talking about me and how I feel in an effort to provide some insight to one of the guys on this board whose wife is orgasmic and can really get into sex and who sounds as though she is very sensual and uninhibited but who is the LD spouse in their marriage (and I only mentioned testosterone because another poster took personal offense at a remark I made about ME, and I was trying to clarify what I said about ME, not anybody else on this board who are all anonymous strangers, and to point out an interesting experiment Dr. Pat Love did on herself by taking testosterone, which helped her understand better the way that many men feel).

Michele's book is about the sex-starved MARRIAGE and she explains that there are many, many reasons for one person to be the LD person in the MARRIAGE. What I've tried to do is to write about my experiences and what I know and have learned about my body, my marriage, and me, and about things that have worked to increase our LM frequency to four or more times a week rather than a couple of times a month, and the amount of physical affection (both sexual and nonsexual) to 2 to 3 hours a day instead of perhaps 2 hours a month previously.

But, now that the subject's been raised, I will express my personal observation and perception about this forum. With a few notable exceptions, at times this board seems more like a club for self-identified HD spouses to gripe and complain about so-called LD spouses with a tendency to stereotype and lump together ALL LD spouses as being unsexy, sexual duds, clueless, insensitive, mean, intentionally withholding, etc. Doesn't make this board all that welcoming to those of us who are the LD spouses who are looking for solutions, insights, and support and who are trying to keep from backsliding into old patterns. Can you really imagine any man who's the LD spouse in his marriage feeling welcome here or feeling as though he can ask for help, insight, and empathy to improve his marriage? And yet, an LD husband could probably provide far more insight and help to HD wives than anybody else if the goal is to increase intimacy and sexual frequency. But, heaven help any LD man who ventured here and perhaps expressed his concern about nagging and criticism and its effect on his sexual desire (Here's the disclaimer: I'm not talking about anybody on this board; I don't know any of you or your husbands; but Michele identifies this as a factor for some men on pp. 141--144 on TSSM; and although my critical remarks outside of bed didn't affect my husband's sexual desire for me, it probably affected his feelings toward me and his desire to spend time with me.)

Again, speaking only of ME, I'm very grateful to many of the HD men on this board because they helped me to understand and have more empathy for my husband, who's the HD spouse in our marriage. If I looked at them instead as being oversexed, too focused on sex, etc., I wouldn't have been open to learning from them.

As the LD spouse in my marriage, I believe that my experiences and feelings might possibly provide some insight and assistance to some HD spouses, especially to some of the HD men on this board whose wives are orgasmic, who had great sex lives in the beginning of their relationships, and whose wives can really get into it once they get started (I wouldn't be able to provide any more help or insight than the "HD" women on this forum for a man whose wife hated sex, had never had an orgasm, thought sex was dirty or disgusting, etc.) But, as an LD spouse who loves her husband (although we were on the verge of divorce), who's learned that family of origin issues, while interesting, aren't nearly as important as finding solutions (something I wish former therapists had known), and who finds sex with her husband very pleasurable and who is easily orgasmic, I'm in a position to give a perspective from the other side of the bed for an HD husband. I also found that journaling here helped my motivation for some unknown reason, but now I prefer to do my journaling privately. I might also be able to provide some support to LD wives who wonder if it truly is possible to increase intimacy and emotional closeness by taking a first step to enthusiastically meet a HD husband's need and desire for sex and who then wonder if it's normal to also feel some anxiety and perhaps even a little bit of anger (temporary) when things do actually improve after years of living parallel lives.

One of the most interesting things and a major point in Michele's book, TSSM, is the research that's come out about sexual desire and arousal patterns (guess Michele must also be oxymoronic for identifying desire and arousal as two separate things).

So what's wrong with looking back at the human sexual response cycle and in particular, desire, in this way.? For one thing, this model assumes everyone experiences sexuality in a similar fashion -- desire --> arousal --> orgasm --> resolution -- when in fact, research suggests otherwise (Basson, 2001). Among other things, it appears that some people, particularly many women in long-term marriages, do not experience spontaneous or out-of-the-blue sexual thoughts or fantasies. However, when they decide to be receptive to their partners' advances or initiate sexual contact themselves, not to quell a sexual hunger but for other, equally valid reasons such as the desire for intimate connection, being touched in stimulating ways often leads to arousal. Arousal triggers a strong desire to continue being sexual. Hence desire follows arousal.

***
You need to stop thinking of yourself as someone who isn't sexual just because you don't daydream about sex or find yourself lusting after your partner while you're in the midst of reading your newspaper or working on the computer. It may just not be your style. If, however, when your spouse touches, kisses, and holds you, it feels good and increases your desire to continue connecting sexually, guess what? You're not desireless, you're filled with desire. Your body simply works differently. Stop comparing yourself to other people whose desire seems to just happen. You're different. Different isn't bad; it's just different.

Weiner Davis, M. The Sex-Starved Marriage. New York: Simong and Schuster. 2003. p. 29.

I've also discovered something else that Michele talks about:

These women learned something else from this experiment. They noticed an additional side benefit to becoming more sexual. Several women said that when their relationships were more intimate emotionally, they felt sexier and more amorous. These women realized that contrary to what they thought, their sexual feelings hadn't disappeared; they were simply camouflaged beneath feelings of frustration and hurt. And now that they were getting along better with their spouses, they rediscovered the siren within.
Weiner, Davis. p. 98

That's happening in our marriage, too. If only other therapists had taught us what I've learned from Michele (and Willard Harley), we could have improved our marriage, including both emotional and sexual intimacy, long before now. We could also have saved a ton of money, but perhaps that's why some therapists prefer the "let's talk about your feelings and your family of origin issues" approach.

My husband's happier and more relaxed than I've seen him in years (he's also sleeping better). I'm happier and am falling in love with him all over again (and Schnarch is right about emotional intimacy and age in a long-term monogamous relationship).

And, now after all that we've learned these past few weeks, I can and will keep f--king his brains out as long as it's physically possible and he wants me to (but no matter what, I'll keep those foot rubs and neck rubs coming even if we're sitting in wheelchairs in a nursing home ).

[grislen]

EO,

That's happening in our marriage, too. If only other therapists had taught us what I've learned from Michele (and Willard Harley), we could have improved our marriage, including both emotional and sexual intimacy, long before now. We could also have saved a ton of money, but perhaps that's why some therapists prefer the "let's talk about your feelings and your family of origin issues" approach.

I have a question for you do you think that back when you were going to the C's would you have followed there advice and started ML to your H on a regular basis. Or would you have said that wont't work because you weren't ready to go down that road?

Lee

[eyesopened]

I have a question for you do you think that back when you were going to the C's would you have followed there advice and started ML to your H on a regular basis.

Lee,
It's a good question, and the answer believe it or not is yes. If somebody like Michele had told me what she says in the book, I would have ML to my husband whenever, wherever, and however he wanted if I knew it's what made him feel most loved and would increase the affection and emotional intimacy in our marriage. I know that one of the reasons he married me, thankfully not the only reason, is that sex was great between us.

In our case, we lived and worked in separate cities even after marriage and didn't even move in together until I was 6 months pregnant and quit my job so we could raise our child together, so we really didn't have a period of time to adjust to living with each other before the stress of kids. I don't know if you have kids, but if you do, you know how exhausted that can leave the mother and father. Combine that with a career (he was a military officer until recently) that takes him away from home often for long periods and my history of sexual abuse at the hands of a trusted family member while babysitting which made it impossible for me to leave my kids alone with anybody except certain female family members who all lived hundreds or thousands of miles away; and it shouldn't be a surprise that our marriage was barely limping along with a lot of fighting and distancing. Looking back, we often felt exhausted, and we usually fell asleep as soon as we went to bed. When he would reach for me, it often felt as though it was another chore I had to do before sleeping, which had nothing to do with him or whether or not I desired or loved him, but simply the fact that I was always tired and exhausted after chasing after our kids (all boys). It's hard to explain, but also sometimes I'd look at him and he seemed to be a stranger and I'd start thinking about divorce.

One of the things Michele says in the KLA tapes and in Divorce Remedy (she might even say in TSSM) is to look back to when things were better and identify what was different. One time when things were definitely better between us was when my husband had an assignment that still required a lot of travel but gave him the flexibility when he wasn't gone to meet me for lunch once the kids were all in school. We started out just meeting to eat and talk once a week. Then, once when I was trying to meet a deadline to finish a research memo at home, I suggested that he come to the house to eat lunch because it would take less time. He walked in, I was happy to see him (especially since our weekly lunches were bringing us back together again), we kissed, and BOOM! I looked at him, he looked at me, and we went upstairs and never did eat the lunch that I'd made (but I did manage to finish the memo later that afternoon). Our lunches, both at home and at restaurants, became pretty regular for a couple of years and then he changed jobs (left the military), we moved, and those lunches became a thing of the past; and we drifted apart again physically and emotionally especially with all the added stress of a new job and a new town and home.

Hope this answers your question.

[barneyfife]

EO,

I'm glad you started this thread and I apologize for promulgating the "HD is good, LD is bad" stereotype.

Your success is an inspiration to me, and I'm sure for others, too. I'm now confused by the part of your story that first seemed obvious, however. Isn't your success due to your "eyes being opened" to the need for you (LDW) to alter your behavior to meet your HDH's sexual makeup?

A LDW coming to here would be hard-pressed to believe you're truly LD, IMO. That opinion is based on the marathon LM that you've embarked on to love your H and save your M. From your posts, it doesn't seem that you've done so begrudgingly, but in making the decision to ML enthusiastically to your H, you've rekindled your desire for him in many ways.

I admire your willingness to change. You found the ingredient that many never find or are too proud to act on, if they find it. If you hadn't been willing to change first, you might not have saved your M.

But, as an admitted LDW, let me ask you a question. Would you see the same results in your M now if, instead of you going from LD to HD, your H had decided to go LD? Wasn't that your situation when you were facing D?

If that's true, then why wouldn't it take the same "revelation" that you got for any other LDW to resolve her M difficulties with a HDH? And wouldn't the same apply for a LDH with a HDW?

I think I'm speaking for all the HDs here when I say that "your revelation" is the ONE thing that we hope for most with our S.

Mike
BTW - whenever MM says "moron", she's referring to me...she just adds "oxy" on the front to make me wonder what she's insulting me about (I can't find "oxy" in the dictionary )

[MJontheMend]

I'm sorry we hijacked your thread EO, I already started another thread to continue the discussion. Good luck to you with your FSM I wish we could have communicated better. I think what we need on this board is some MD people to translate the HD for the LD snd vice versa.

But, heaven help any LD man who ventured here and perhaps expressed his concern about nagging and criticism and its effect on his sexual desire (Here's the disclaimer: I'm not talking about anybody on this board; I don't know any of you or your husbands; but Michele identifies this as a factor for some men

I don't take offense at you bringing this up, but this was probably the least useful piece of information in the book for me. I am practically a Stepford Wife because I perform so much service and offer so much sympathy and so few complaints to my H because I will do anything to get laid.

For instance, I cook his dinner every night and serve it to him on a tray in front of the TV. I ask him what he wants to drink and go back to the kitchen to get that for him. When he had an early job, I got up two hours earlier than I would have to otherwise and made him his breakfast to order. I do all the lawn mowing and home repairs and other stereotypical H jobs around the house and I do all the house work too. In addition to this except for when my kids were quite young, I have had an at least 30 hr. per week paid job. I listen to his endless complaints about his jobs and his family of origin and try to be empathetic and helpful. I didn't complain and did my best to be supportive when he quit one job without notice and left me as the sole breadwinner for a year and emptied out our 401k. When he complained about being bored and depressed on the weekend a few monthes ago, I suggested that he use some of our savings which I had earmarked for a fence for my garden to buy himself a motorcycle. I suppose the last thing I was holding out on was honoring his request that I lose 20 lbs. and dress more sexy, but I recently did that too.

I will grant that because I have ADD, I don't always do the housework perfectly or remember that he doesn't like smoked cheddar on his sandwiches or keep my new sexy clothes unrumpled etc. but I've pretty much reached the end of the line in terms of how much I can do to be a "better" spouse. The rest is up to him.

[eyesopened]

A LDW coming to here would be hard-pressed to believe you're truly LD, IMO.

Mike,
Michele and Dr. Pat Love (who wrote the forward to TSSM) would believe. In fact, Love talks about the breakup of a relationship over this issue, and Michele discusses in the last chapter of TSSM her own experience in her own marriage with this issue. That's one of the points that I was hoping to make, that there are lots of people out there like me who love their spouses, who want to fix things, who might wonder if Michele's ideas will really work, who might appreciate the anonymous support of this board, but who would be deterred from seeking help from this board because of the perception that the HD spouses don't really like the LD spouses, would rather be with one of the other HD people on this board, and that ALL LD spouses are somehow defective, broken, bad, etc. But, as Schnarch says, for every issue in a marriage, including sex, one partner will be more HD than the other. A person might be the HD partner in one relationship, but could be the LD partner in another relationship and even later in the same relationship (perhaps due to changes in physical appearance of the spouse, health problems, stress, worry, grief, etc.)

Also, as Willard Harley says in His Needs, Her Needs, sex is often the number one emotional need for men in marriage whereas it usually doesn't even make the top 5 for women (please understand that, as he points out, these are generalizations and don't apply to everybody--this is one of the reasons why I've decided to stop posting here, I feel now as though I have to explain everything and put disclaimers on comments and worry about offending other people when writing about me or things I've read).

On the other hand, Harley found in working with couples that wives were often just as frustrated with their husbands because their husbands didn't understand or know how to meet their top emotional needs, which were different from their husbands'.

Isn't your success due to your "eyes being opened" to the need for you (LDW) to alter your behavior to meet your HDH's sexual makeup?

I think it would be more accurate to say that my eyes were opened to the fact that ML with my husband says "I love you" to him, that when he MLs to me he's also saying "I love you and want you", that it is as Willard Harley describes in His Needs, Her Needs, one of his top, if not the top, EMOTIONAL needs he has from our marriage and from me. That's why I have the quote from Harry Stack Sullivan at the bottom of my posts; it ultimately comes down to whether or not you love your husband or wife.

Also, as a woman who'd been hit on by men who would even sometimes reach out and touch where they weren't invited (some were strangers even), it became very easy to say no, to think that men just wanted sex, that they just wanted a warm body in bed with them, but to not see the connection between sex and love for some men. My husband never told me how he felt until I asked him, and the only indication I had that he was unhappy was that he would occasionally make a sarcastic remark that wasn't the way to get through to me.

Would you see the same results in your M now if, instead of you going from LD to HD, your H had decided to go LD? Wasn't that your situation when you were facing D?

No, because sex wasn't an issue or emotional need for me. It's not as though we never had sex or that it was unpleasant when we did. It was just more infrequent than he wanted. When we did ML, it was usually great. If he suddenly went to LD (accident, health, etc.), I'd find out what says "I love you" to him and that's what I'd do. The great thing is that my husband is now working and succeeding very well at meeting my emotional needs, which include physical affection (long nonsexual hugs and kisses, more time together, more conversation, etc.) I'm not kidding when I say we spend at least 2 to 3 hours a day touching now (hugs, ML, kisses, hands resting on each other while talking, foot rubs, neck rubs, etc.) The strange thing is that most people who know me, including my parents, would describe me as reserved and aloof; but my husband knows how much I love being touched by him and touching him.

As for contemplating divorce, I probably was the typical walkaway wife Michele wrote about in her article. The emotional distance between us seemed to be huge, and I felt alone and lonely even when he was around. I'd read relationship books and try to get him to read them; but it wasn't until I read TSSM and His Needs, Her Needs, that I realized how important sex was to him (remember, he never told me and he'd stopped asking and would simply wait until I gave him some type of signal, usually out of guilt that we SHOULD be having at least as much sex as the national average ).

If that's true, then why wouldn't it take the same "revelation" that you got for any other LDW to resolve her M difficulties with a HDH? And wouldn't the same apply for a LDH with a HDW?

Because it ultimately comes down to love more than sex (although I can find great statistics on how good sex is for health and happiness). And, I believe that Michele is absolutely right when she writes that low desire can come from many different reasons. What we had working in our advantage is the memory of great sex, my comfort with my body and with sex (And my husband said the most wonderful thing a couple of days ago when I was fretting a little about aging, he told me that when he was top of me a few nights ago, he noticed that I was as pretty as when he married me. Do I think that I am? No, I see the lines around the eyes and mouth. But, it was one of the best, if not the best, compliments he's ever given me.), good health, almost grown kids now, etc. Also, as I've written, it was very helpful and reassuring to recognize my arousal and desire pattern and read that it was normal and common.

[barneyfife]

EO,

Thanks for your post. We're both saying the same thing in different ways. (I'm a HDM so I have too little blood to supply my brain, too. )

I'm saying that while you're still the LD in your R, you've CHOSEN to express your love for your H in the way that it means most to him (sex). You did so because you came to UNDERSTAND what sex really means to him. But your BEHAVIOR over the last few weeks would make it appear that your M is between 2 HDs. No wonder your H is calmer, happier, and changing to meet your emotional needs! I contend that every HDH would react the same, if he loves his W and is of decent character.

Again, I admire your willingess to make the first move! My W has read Harley, TSSM, Dr. Laura, et al without even the hint of understanding the importance of sex to me. Don't dismiss that as just a natural thing that every W would do. It's not!

Since it is about love and not just sex, sex is critical to those who have the greatest need for it. Without it, there is no satisfactory way to express love. Substitute attempts will always fall short. That's why (IMO) your H wasn't making attempts to meet your emotional needs and stopped trying to have sex with you. He didn't feel loved because of the lack of sex, whether in frequency or enthusiasm. You were fortunate to have a great sex life to remember. Perhaps that gave you greater incentive to understand what sex means to your H.

Congrats on your success! If you keep up your current routine, I imagine your H will continue to be calm, happy and emotionally "there" for you.

Mike - I don't try to offend, it just comes naturally for me

[NotATLDave]

I would have ML to my husband whenever, wherever, and however he wanted if I knew it's what made him feel most loved and would increase the affection and emotional intimacy in our marriage.

I'm sorry to be a negative nigel, but eo, you are absolutely the exception to the rule here when it comes to (what I think is most of) our LDWs. The LD women who come here are already motivated for some sort of change or else they wouldn't be here. Davis, Harley and others' books are written for couples in this situation where both parties are scratching their heads. From what I've seen, a lot of us don't have the luxury of a spouse who feels like there is actually a problem in the relationship. For the past 10 years, my W told me that she absolutely loved her life and wouldn't change a thing. It wasn't until I started differentiating, and dragging her to a C, that she finally admitted that I wasn't around for her enough. Your endless profession of "ml whenever he wants" is depressing to me because I knew my W would never have that type of revelation. It sounds like you were cooked pretty thoroughly in one of Schnarch's crucibles. You have reinforced my thoughts that the best results come when you separate or move very close to divorce. I'm not certain of how your dynamics played out but the drama of your situation definitely lit a fire under your tail.

[InherJourney]

I'm not certain of how your dynamics played out but the drama of your situation definitely lit a fire under your tail.

It wasn't until my H "emotionally divorced" me that my eyes opened up. For 10 yrs I rejected his sexual needs as immature, inconsiderate, unnecessary, etc...I just did not get it. I didn't understand why we couldn't do the "nice family thing" without the sex. It was only when he pulled away his affection/love and even the negative fighting ( in other words, all emotion) that I woke up. I realized how much I missed him and began seing him through a different lens...I "saw" all the things he did for the family, how attractive he was, etc., and I wanted to reconnect. I did not push the limits of the marriage out of maliciousness...I had a lot of faulty perceptions of what love is in a marriage, and I have a tendency to hold onto hurts and withdraw as well as take things out on him.
One thing I would love to say to the wives of the HDM out there is as much as I have contributed to the pain in my marriage, the one person I really hurt was myself. Desire really is a state of mind, and I really do believe it's in everyone's grasp.
Journey-- who has shed her LD self, and is declaring herself HD

[eyesopened]

Dave,
I hear what you're saying, and I've seen what you're talking about in my own family. My father and mother sleep in separate bedrooms, which is my mom's preference. My father adores my mother, and I've seen some of the love letters and cards he's given her; but the love he gives doesn't seem to be reciprocated. I've never seen my mother hug my father. If this makes my mom sound like a horrible person, she isn't. She's funny, intelligent, and had a figure that could still turn men's heads when she was in her forties. Now that I'm an adult, my mom is one of my best friends and probably the first person after my husband who I call when I need to talk to somebody.

As for sex, I remember finding my father's well-worn stash of porn years ago, so he's not sexless. I could give her Michele's books and Harley's books and tell her how my marriage has changed for the better, and she'd tell me that was nice but wonder what it has to do with her and my dad. Even if my dad left (and many years ago he did make the threat), she'd let him go because she's happy with her life with or without him. And, to be honest, I have no idea how anybody would be able to persuade my mother that sex is important enough to my dad that if she truly loves him, she should figure out some way to meet his needs.

If my husband had put in the effort you have to try and get your wife to understand your needs (this is absolutely no criticism of my husband), we would probably have reached this point of satisfaction long before now. It's ironic that writing about your frustration has actually benefited another HD husband who you'll never meet (although you may meet my son with no knowledge of who his parents are one day since he's getting into mountain biking).

I guess what I'm saying when I talk about other LD wives out there who are like me is that some of us simply don't realize that our husbands are literally starving for sex simply because the frequency is too low. I guess I shouldn't try to speak for anybody else, but I suspect there are other women like me who think that quality is what counts when it comes to sex with our husbands rather than quantity. Yes, quality is important and I'm sure men appreciate that (at least my husband does), but I suspect that he would have traded quality for quantity as long as the sex was satisfactory and not the "lay there like a dead fish" type.

So, what you and some of the other guys on this board along with Michele's book and Harley's book whacked into my head is that sex is far more than a physical itch for men, it's an emotional need as well as a physical need, and that frequency is far more important than I ever realized. That's why I turned frequency completely over to my husband even when I initiate. I want him to know that I believe his sex drive is perfectly normal and a good thing, that I love the fact that he still finds me desirable and wants to ML with me, that I'm grateful to him for not giving up on our marriage, and that he's not being unreasonable if he wants to ML every day (as it turns out, he actually prefers to wait at least a day between sessions because it feels better for him when we do ML, and that's fine with me). I am still surprised, in a good way, at the amount of nonsexual physical touch he wanted once he no longer felt sex-starved (long foot rubs are a daily event now).

I feel real remorse about the past, and I'll make it up to him the best I can. Fortunately, this is where the benefits of a long-term monogamous marriage kick in; I know that I can trust him, that he won't be selfish and demanding or blaming. In fact, as I mentioned a couple of other times, when he saw that I was truly remorseful about the past, he hugged me for several minutes, told me it was water under the bridge, and brought me 2 dozen roses the next day.

As for the crucible, I probably was in one although I still have a little trouble getting my mind around that concept. Once I realized that ML frequently was what said "I love you" to my husband, I realized that I could no longer say that I loved him and mean it if I wasn't willing to try my best to meet this very reasonable need that didn't violate any of my boundaries or morals.

BTW, the dynamics of our relationship were depressingly similar to what Michele describes in this article about The Walkaway Wife Syndrome . I felt as though my only choices were between divorce, which violates so many principles and values of mine, and continuing in a marriage that was increasingly becoming a relationship where we lived parallel lives. Miserable choices. So, I'd reached a point where I had nothing to lose by following Michele's advice in TSSM. If it didn't work, I'd only be back where I started. But, if it did work, which it did (and I'm still surprised at how well it worked), I had a shot at what seemed impossible, a "happy" marriage.

For me, once I learned how important frequent sex is to my husband, it really came down to one question, "do I love my husband", and the best definition of love I've found is the one by American psychiatrist Harry Stack Sullivan below.