I've been reading this forum for a few months now, and man have I found it helpful. It was really amazing to find this place and see that I'm not alone. The situation I am in, and the feelings I have felt are not only shared by others, but are spelled out right there, on my computer screen, by people I don't know, but who seem like friends, or at least comrades in arms.
Hairdog, Cemar, CaDad, Tim47, all you Daves, and all you other sex-starved suckers out there.... I feel your pain. I've been married close to a decade, and we have two little kids (5 and 2). Waaay back in the early days, sex was not a problem, to say the least. My wife, in fact, was probably even more HD than I. Often twice a day (sometimes more on weekends!). Our current rate is roughly once every two months. How did we get from there to here? It would be easy to trace the problem to the birth of our children, but looking back, it's been a pretty steady decline, starting the day we got married. Actually, make that the day I proposed to her. Sheesh. I really do love my wife, she's fabulous in almost every way. But it's hard not to think of this and be bitter.
Recently it has really hit me that I'm faced with three horrible options: 1) A lifetime of virtual celibacy; 2) Divorce; 3) Cheat.
I take my marriage seriously, and cheating is completely out of the question. Divorce is an absolute last option; as frustrated as I am, I'm nowhere near there. But, I will not accept the lifetime celibacy. Soooooooooo...... something has to change.
The funny thing is, my wife doesn't even seem to realize we have a problem. How could she not? We've talked about it countless times. I take every rejection, and keep coming back for more. I've bought books, including SSM. (currently sitting, unread, in her nightstand). I've made my feelings quite clear; at least I think I have. All you HD's out there, is this common? Is this the way it works? Are your spouses oblivious to the issue? Do they seem unaware that sex is actually important to some people? I'm running out of patience with this crap.
Jeez it's late, I gotta go to bed. First two questions: 1) Sex therapy: This is my next big hope. If you've tried, I'd love to hear about it. Does it work? What exactly does it involve? What sort of discussions and excercises can I expect? 2) Passionate Marriage: Some of you recommend this book with cult-like zeal. Is it really helping? I mean, is you sex-life better now? Or are you just more accepting of your sexless fate. I see lots of talk of differentiating and crucibles. Not so much talk of hot, steamy monkey-sex. Just wondering.
Whew, that's enough. Ya'll have a good Memorial Day, hear?
First of all, Welcome! Glad to see you here, even though what brought you here is nothing to be glad about.
You're right, you sound JUST like me a few months ago. I have to say, things are a lot better now, in many ways, and even the sex is getting better, but it's a long process. Worth it, tho. We ML last night, first time in 3 weeks, and it was pretty hot. Gonna initiate again tonight and see what happens.
Bottom line, don't despair. Keep reading, keep posting. In my case, I definitely did sit down with W and have a SERIOUS conversation, more than once, in which I let her know in no uncertain terms exactly where we stood, including the fact that at some point in the NEAR future I would be leaving her if things didn't improve. They need to hear it spelled out like that if they don't perceive the problem themselves. Don't let her be in denial.
"....including the fact that at some point in the NEAR future I would be leaving her if things didn't improve."
The problem with this threat for me is, I couldn't really do it. I'll put up with a lot of crap to avoid hurting my kids, and to be able to see them every day.
Nope, gotta make it work out. But you know how it is, there are always higher priorities. Today, for instance, there's laundry and mopping and lawn mowing. If that goes too quickly I'm sure she'll think of something else! Hoo, boy.
Quote: I'll put up with a lot of crap to avoid hurting my kids, and to be able to see them every day.
Yup, been there, done that. Thing is, as I now see it, if I'd been willing to press the issue earlier, I could've saved myself a lot of years of heartache. The light at the end of the tunnel would have been a LOT closer.
A couple of points - I assume YOU'VE read SSM? Thing is, if SHE doesn't see that there's a problem, she won't be motivated to change anything. She has to understand that if YOU have a problem, you BOTH have a problem. Trouble is, if all you can do is wait for her to read SSM, you may be in for a LONG wait, unless you can find a way to convince her that a problem for one is a problem for both. In the meantime, you might as well get a copy of PM and read it, you've got nothing to lose. What I found was that when I read PM, I finally saw that I had options besides just waiting around for W to do something. It gave me some things I could do on my own, which I found tremendously liberating. Try it!
Passionate Marriage: Some of you recommend this book with cult-like zeal. Is it really helping? I mean, is you sex-life better now? Or are you just more accepting of your sexless fate. I see lots of talk of differentiating and crucibles. Not so much talk of hot, steamy monkey-sex. Just wondering.
In my situation, when I pushed my W to read SSM and pushed the counseling thing, she felt overwhelmed and coerced. The 2 LM sessions we had were awful and degrading to me. When I finally told her that she was "off the hook" and that "I didn't care what she did anymore" BUT that I wanted x,y,z things and it was 100% her choice to meet them or not, she seemed to just "fall into the program" and the sex instantly improved. One night, she came home from a neighborhood event and, for the first time in 10 years, really wanted me and initiated. She didn't just want a LM session, she wanted to have brains f*cked out of her head. Ironically, I was on the PM chapter that talks about this and I was more than willing to comply. I discovered that she has fierce sexual energy (which probably scares her). Anyway, subsequent sessions have included a variety of styles, some with real dirty talk, others have included her MB for me (but was really getting into it). I've had two recent occasions where I had 2 Os in the same session. In other words, we have had a couple times that have been better than anything we ever did before marriage. So to answer your question, I wholeheartedly say YES...PM has led to an big improvement in the quality. The best part of PM is the fact that I didn't have to have her read, or know about it to get these results. I just "shook the foundation" and that seemed to wake her up and realize that "I'm a MAN (I'd love to say 'sexy beast' but that would be stretch)"...not just "that guy who lives in the same house". BUT, I will also say that I'm still having to "work" at it because the old habits are hard to break , especially for her. Just read my recent "Here we go" entry where I tried to initiate between our established interval.
Sorry to have you in the club but I promise that "movement" is possible. Don't spend too much time being frustrated about things like the unread SSM book. Just "go quiet" on the sex talks, read PM, formulate a strategy, look for opportunities to exert your differentiation, and hold on to yourself. You described all of our Ws. Mine thought our life was perfect too and now she's being fairly sexual with me. So hang in there.
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
Quote Paul92: "Hey, it's really great to be here". That's the first time I've seen someone so happy to be here. Most of us want out! I know what you mean though Paul. The people on this forum actually make progress happen for you because they know what you are going through and will give you useful help. We are all on the same path starting from exactly the same story as yours. There is no overnight cure but with perseverence you will succeed - even if only to make yourself a better person. Do not expect your W to read any of the books. I (and others) have tried and failed. Suggest it once then leave it alone otherwise you are just adding to the "pressure". Identify and fix your problems first - you own them after all. She owns her problems and will have to fix them herself. You cannot fix them for her but by making changes in your own behaviour, stating your position calmly and clearly then having the strength of character to "hold onto yourself" and "self soothe" through the rejections, she will have to change herself in response. It's all in "Passionate Marriage", which is by no means an easy read but well worth it. Read the posts from Tim47, AntlerDave and honeypot for the best PM insights. Good luck. SD
Thanks to all for the replies. The title of this thread is meant to be ironic: No offense, but it is decidedly NOT great to be here!
I haven't put any pressure on her to read books. Actually I shouldn't have said SSM is "unread" because she did read some the first day I gave it to her. I think she read the first chapter. That night I told her I appreciated the effort and she said she'd keep reading. That was maybe six weeks ago. Since then I haven't mentioned it and she hasn't touched it. Oh, well. I think this is worse than not reading it at all, because the first chapter is pretty powerful. If it didn't make an impression.....
A couple of years ago I bought a different book, called "Hot Monogomy." Same thing happened. Guess I'm a slow learner! I think I'll pick up PM and keep it to myself.
It's interesting that nobody responded to my question about sex therapy. Surely some of you have tried it?
No I haven't, and I also asked about it on one of the other forums here a couple of months ago. From the responses I got, I concluded that it's probably claptrap, for the most part. Perhaps good therapists exist (Dr. Schnarch, of PM, is one), but finding one would be a nightmare crap-shoot. For my money, PM was a better choice.
Quote: . It was really amazing to find this place and see that I'm not alone. The situation I am in, and the feelings I have felt are not only shared by others, but are spelled out right there, on my computer screen,
Hi Paul... I "lurked" here for a few weeks before recently "coming out." I was a ND/LD for too long than I care to admit( wow, this does sound like an AA confesssion ) and now I am the one who is pushing for a more sexually intimate marriage, so change is possible! It is a very hard thing to own up to the fact that not having desire is unhealthy...in fact, it was a running "joke" with a few of my girlfriends which is really not funny at all but just shows how we can cover up our problems so readily. In the back of my mind I knew that my attitude/behavior was not healthy and ultimately confronted myself. I am happy to have found this board and admire how everyone here is working so hard to improve their marriages when there are easier routes out there. There is empathy, support, insight, sharing and humor here...and hopefully lots more stories of great sex! I can't comment on sex therapy; I recently started marital counseling and can't yet provide personal feedback, however, I am not too optimistic given the experiences of the people on the board. I found SSM helpful in underscoring the importance of a healthy sexual relationship and am now reading PM which I feel is strengthening me in my daily interactions.
Paul, Regarding sex therapy. I would avoid it for now until you read PM or at least see if there are any therapists in your area who have had adequate Schnarch training and admit that they integrate marital therapy with sex therapy through the Crucible Approach. You can find the therapists by contacting Schnarch's office through their website at http://www.passionatemarriage.com. There weren't any therapists in my town, so I found some in my parent's city and intended to do a few days of intensive sessions while my folks babysat.
In the beginning of this process, my biggest draw towards a sex therapist was the idea that I could have a "professional" tell my W to be more sexual, and do x,y,z on day 1,2,3. I also thought a pro could "crack" her wall and make her "see the light" and have her be "cured". It seemed simple especially after reading SSM because SSM advocates "just doing it". Well, I found out that in most situations, it's not that simple. Most LDWs are not as motivated as Journey and other LDs here and will be resentful of efforts to "push" them into something they don't feel like doing (or fixing). Trust me, it's unbelievable to think that your W could be taking such a stand due to other issues and then pretending that life is perfect. Mine did this for years. It's a sign of their "undifferentiated" self...they simply are fearful to be honest and express themselves because your importance to them has become higher than they can handle. So they feel and express their disappointment in a lack of desire that they assume is just a natural part of any marriage. Yah, it sucks because it's mostly in their court but their are definite steps you can take to make them feel a little more willing to fix it.
Sorry to ramble, I would just say that you will be much better off reading PM and getting a clear view of the playing field you are on before executing anything. I hope that makes sense. I just want you to avoid the pitfalls that I went through early on.
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
