Quote: First, gang... let's remember INFIDELITY WILL EVENTUALLY TOUCH 80% OF ALL MARRIAGES IN THE U.S., AT SOME TIME DURING THIER DURATION. Think about that. That means that out of every TWENTY married people in the United States, EIGHT TO SIXTEEN OF THEM WILL EVENTUALLY CHEAT!
Not necessarily. Statistics can be twisted to mean anything one wants. It could mean that the same cheating spouses just keep getting D'd and remarried.
It didn't say that 80% of spouses cheat, it said that, "INFIDELITY WILL EVENTUALLY TOUCH 80% OF ALL MARRIAGES IN THE U.S." The same people could be doing all the cheating.
Quote: Through my affair, I have learned important things about myself, life, love, and marriage... I have gained amazing insights that I could NEVER have gained without direct experience.
Gee, that's really something to be proud of, Annalise!
Quote: I am not saying infidelity is "okay." I am saying it is FAR from a black and white issue, and people on both sides of the fence deserve respect and support.
Yes, they do, if they can see that they have made a mistake and are trying to save their marriage. Why should we support someone who is wanting to dump their W for a married OW? Why should we respect him? Respect has to be earned.
I agree with Rayanne about the twisting of statistics. The 80% statistic for infidelity is not supported by actual studies using random representative sampling.
In fact, actual studies show that married men and women are far more likely to be faithful than unfaithful. For example, the prestigious 1994 University of Chicago study, which is one of the most recent comprehensive and scientifically accurate studies of sex in America, cites statistics for faithfulness in marriage of 75% for men and 85% for women. Here's the link to the press release for the study: University of Chicago Study Disputes Myths About American Sexual Habits
Also, here's a link to an article from the archives of smartmarriages.com discussing another study from the University of California with similar findings: Infidelity Statistics .
As you can see from this article, the people claiming that more married people are unfaithful than faithful are authors of popular books rather than scholarly articles or books. They're not research scientists or statisticians. Rather than use actual findings from rigorous research studies, they rely on speculation, guessing, personal beliefs, ad hominem attacks (for example, claiming that the study subjects must be lying), and self-selected sampling surveys.
And, when faced with evidence from scientifically rigorous random studies that contradicted their writings, these authors simply pooh-poohed that evidence. After all, it's harder to sell a book titled "The Monogamy Myth" when the evidence shows that monogamy is alive and well and statistically likely to be the norm for married people in America.
Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there. Will Rogers
To love at all is to be vulnerable. Love anything, and your heart will certainly be wrung and possibly be broken. C. S. Lewis
I'm not sure I get your point on exactly how this statistic could be misleading... I think I see your point... but regardless... any expert in the field of relationship research will tell you that cheating is an EPIDEMIC... it's widespread... the internet has increased it tremendously, also. My point is that it is SO common, that we need to be educated about it and understand it, not sit in judgement of it.
"Through my affair, I have learned important things about myself, life, love, and marriage... I have gained amazing insights that I could NEVER have gained without direct experience."-
"Gee, that's really something to be proud of, Annalise!"
I think it is! We learn about ourselves and life by the trials we choose, and by the trials that choose us. When I say "learn" I am not talking about learning some superficial moral "lesson" about not doing it again, I am talking about gaining insight into the nature of ourselves and life and relationship. If we don't do that, then its just a bunch of conflict and suffering for nothing and THAT's nothing to be proud of.
"Yes, they do (deserve respect), if they can see that they have made a mistake and are trying to save their marriage. Why should we support someone who is wanting to dump their W for a married OW? Why should we respect him? Respect has to be earned."
You and I disagree here. Trying to "save one's marriage" is not the ONLY legitimate response to a marital crisis. "Dumping his W" as you call it, is an awfuly judgemental way to put it. Perhaps his marriage is reaching a natural end. Not all R's are meant to last till the grave. Those are the vows we take, yes, and the hope that we have, but as we all know, the complex realities of love and life and relationship are not about to be "simplified" by that hope! Each marriage seems to have it's own unique spirit and lifespan, and it is the task of the two people involved to determine whether to stay or whether to move on. One choice is not any more "legit" than the other. Likewise, the married OW he is pursuing must make that choice. Probably, she has chosen the crisis situation as much as he has, no matter what she says. She's a grown adult... if she really doesn't want him around, she can file a restraining order.
My dad lured my mom from a fairly troubled marriage and married her. Was that a "mistake" as you call it... was it "morally wrong"... I think that's a very COMPLICATED question, folks... which is why I try not to pass judgement.
If he's looking for an easy out, he should probably take it! ... I think marriage requires committment and perseverance, but not all people who marry have those aptitudes. Those who don't should maybe move on... maybe "serial monogamy" is best for some...so that they do not have to deal with the tough problems that come up eventually, in a long M. I hate to say that, because we LEARN and grow so much from those tough problems!... but some folks just don't wanna stick it out. As long as divorce is legal, they have the right to choose that path for themselves.
However, I do think he SHOULD be (respectfully) informed that the purpose of this site is to save marriages, and that if he is not at least a little interested in that, it's probably not the right forum for him.
Thanks for the reply. You mention reliability of stats. The best, most reliable research is always to be found published in professional journals (not popular mags) and University research.
The second link in your post is to an "as yet unpublished study," not a good source. Your first link, however, to the University of Chicago research, is legit. Interesting!!! However, the study is over a decade old. Many professional journls of psychology have published research on infidelity since then... that's important, because to my knowledge, infidelity is a problem that has been on the RISE for quite some time, thanks mostly to the internet and to people spending longer hours in the workplace setting.
I WISH I remembered the source of my "80% of all marriages" statistic. The reason I do not have the source, is because the statistic was quoted to me just last semester, by a marriage and family sociologist I was taking a class from at the University in my city. I will try to e-mail him for his source.
I think it's pretty obvious that there's a whole lotta hanky panky going on out there, but even it were some not-so-big problem in society (which I doubt!), it would still be deserving of understanding it, rather than judging it. It's really hard to understand a complex life-event like infidelity, or the people involved, when one is busy moralizing, that was my only point.
I understand the concept of not passing judgement and needing a basic understanding of the nature of affairs to do so, however I can't help but think that becoming a society that accepts and tries to understand all forms of "devient" behavior is leading us toward trouble.
sure on the one hand those that are aware of how affairs happen are less likely to find themselves having one but living in a society where it's becoming acceptable through understanding (if not somewhat expected) the statistics will only continue to rise (lack of accountability).
I am not saying that we should pass any moral (or other kind) judgement on those that have affairs I'm simply questioning the value in all the understanding and accepting thats rampant in our culture.
I sit on the edge at times myself.
not an extremely religious person myself but when it comes down to it there is validity in "let he who is without sin cast the first stone." that phrase does not mean "let he who feels their sins are less throw the first stone"
I guess I'm pondering a cultures direction rather than addressing the sole issue of infidelity.
I actually think that the reason why there are so many divorces and so many people cheating is partly due to others NOT passing judgement. I think that maybe if it became more socially unacceptable to do these things that people would seek other choices to actually repair thier damaged relationships.
My XH says now that he went into the marriage thinking that D was a viable option if it didn't work out. With that attitude, IMHO, we start out at a deficit!
Hi, I've been following this thread for a while. I'm not unbiased... my H had an A that has seriously damaged so much of what we had together--trust, a good M, a strong friendship, and more. I've had the opportunity to have an A and I chose differently.
Stats don't mean much to me since everyone seems to have their own set-- on this topic and many others.
But as someone who is pretty non-religious in any traditional sense, I do agree with the posters who are alarmed with the idea that infidelity is becoming acceptable in our culture. I think it speaks a lot to the overall lack of accountability and confusion over our personal values that seems to be increasingly defining us.
To me, it IS black and white. It really IS pretty simple. It comes down the golden rule: do unto others... Would you want to be on the receiving end of your behavior and your choices? If you even have to question your answer, then it's time to drop the excuses, the justifying, all of it and ask yourself why it's OK for you.
My H is the first person to say he'd never want to be treated the way he has treated his W (me), that he doesn't believe in infidelity, that he would never teach his child (if he had one) that this was OK to do. "None of it is OK" is what he says. And yet he keeps on keeping on. And I don't believe "love" of an OP leads us to betray our own values and create unnecessary pain for others... plenty of other stuff does that, but that's no kind of love I want to know.
I think sometimes we forget that we don't get our own private rulebooks with exceptions "just for us". But more and more of us seem to want to pretend that we do. Maybe it's easier. Inner work and being what you believe in can be hard sometimes.
Anyway, I will get off the soapbox now, wc. I just think it's time we all get back to basics and start questioning these things we tell ourselves. And maybe that is what you're doing on this forum?
Hey LL... I totally forgot about this thread! I see all your points, and likewise the ones of the other posters who are keeping with your thoughts here. I don't disagree with any of this. As you insightfully point out, the agenda of understanding the nature of a problem (which we agree is a good thing) absolutely requires at least a temporary shift in focus from judging and moralizing, and you're right, it can become a habit (through "understanding") to let go of the morality issue completely and become "accepting." After all, one BIG way that society keeps people "in line" is by judging and moralizing!
Theoretically, it is possible to learn about "deviant behavior" and understand the nature of a problem, while not "accepting" it. For example, there are experts in the field of child abuse who study the nature of it and give counseling about it, without "judging" the parents, but they certainly still uphold the idea that child abuse is is "wrong"/immoral. So if we know then, that understanding does not necessarily lead to societal acceptance, why does it seem to be doing so in the case of infidelity? And it DOES seem to be doing so, as you point out... otherwise, I would be having to wear a scarlet letter "A" around town, for one thing. My H just reminded me the other day that in Pakistan, I would be KILLED for my behavior. He sometimes probably wishes we lived in Pakistan, at least it would put a swift end to my ambivalence.
This is NOT going to be a popular comment in this crowd,I know... but I think the reason society is becoming more "understanding and accepting" of infidelity, is because the structure of traditional M, as we know it, is collapsing, or at least in for some major evolution. Many sociologists agree with this view.
What our society is doing now is "SERIAL monogamy" not true "Monogamy." True monogamy is not at all well suited to our biology as humans, and no is no longer even suited to the society we have created. Just look at our advertising and TV shows and the fast pace of our society... none of it supports caring for a LTR and remaining faithful to it during hard times.
Andy Rooney (60 Minutes) recently suggested that since the D rate has grown so ridiculously high, the concept of "Term Marriage" should be introduced... where you get M, and then every so often (say 3 years or 5) you decide whether or not you want to "re-up." I kinda like it!... "Honey, did you remember to make dinner reservations at our favorite restaurant for my birthday? If you want me to sign up with you for another 5 years, you better start paying attention to these little things."
Your comments are really interesting. I agree that there needs to be a degree of understanding to address any behavior-- in fact, in my journalistic research and personal experience it often seems that unwillingness to probe for understanding (versus justifications) seems to prolong the behavior in question. I think that's part of what we're seeing culturally.
I find in daily life very few people who are willing to be honest with themselves and ask the hard questions of themselves. It's no coincidence that people are now making their living teaching the general public what it means to identify and structure your life around your values/what you believe in... it's as if, as a nation, we have forgotten how to do the very things we built our country on.
OK, I understand that I might be getting too big picture here, but it fascinates me.
I agree that traditional marriage is crumbling... but I think it's much more a result of creating a culture that doesn't serve our real needs as humans than a matter of biology. We've done some real damage to the idea of "community" as well. But that doesn't make it any less valid a concept, IMO. And what do we get... a nation where depression has become epidemic?
I guess what I find really interesting is this evaluation of "marriage" as a social entity apart from looking at it for what it actually is-- a serious committment between two people to each other.
That is what infidelity breaches most significantly-- why it can be so extraordinarily destructive-- it's a breach of trust at the most deep and profound levels-- the trust our S placed in us and trust we placed in ourselves.
Quote: Just look at our advertising and TV shows and the fast pace of our society... none of it supports caring for a LTR and remaining faithful to it during hard times.
This is so true! But TV and advertising are entirely driven by selling a product. When the shoe is on the other foot, most of us *want* the partner who will care for the LTR and be faithful during hard times. Even if we're not willing to be that person ourselves. What does that say about us as a culture?
Seems to me Andy Rooney's idea would be completely unnecessary if we chose to become self-actualized enough to actually communicate with our spouses through our marriage, and to look at our own positive & negative contributions to the relationship before we start pointing the finger at what our spouse needs to do for us.
I don't know. Guess I'm really getting more and more disheartened by a culture that I find increasingly narcissistic and focused on "ideals" that mean very little to me at the end of the day.
