Enjoy!! It's a great, big sexual world out there!!!
love, Lucy
P.S. - you'll have to copy and paste the links into your browser - I had to put 'returns' in so that they wouldn't be too long for the posting window!!
Phew this thread is moving fast. I expect I will order this book but to be honest I am suffering from psychobabble overload at the moment. When I read quotes from it such as "something called the quantum model of sexual response" I start thinking that I'm not as clever as you guys. That is the sort of phrase I just skip over as unintelligible when I am reading and it would never occur to me to post it as a meaningful quote. I guess I see myself as an organic rather than an intellectual being. I feel waves going through me. A wave of love one second, desire the next, frustration, disappointment, regret. All of these are mixed up in there somewhere. Reading a book to make sense of and direct these waves of emotion to me seems similar to playing the guitar from sheet music. The dots on the page do not relate in any way to what your fingers need to do unless you are very proficient at interpreting the code. I can get the idea of doing a 180 but “quantum model of sexual response” – I don’t think so. SD
It's a fancy term, but really all it means is that there is more to sexual response than the physiological arousal/climax cycle. The "more" in this case is what goes on between our ears. You've no doubt heard it said that "our biggest sex organ is our brain" - this is quite literally true. What we think about sex, even from moment to moment, has a huge impact on how we respond. Picture the following scenario:
You're in a dark room, lying naked on a bed. You become aware that someone is doing something nice for you - stimulating you in the way you like. Giving head, whatever. You're really getting into it, when suddenly the lights come on, and you realize the person is the same sex as you. What happens next? Of course, what happens next is not as predictable is we might suppose, but for the sake of argument, we'll say that what happens next is totally predictable, because you assumed it was someone of the opposite gender...
Chapter 11 of PM is titled "Two Choice Dilemmas and Normal Marital Sadism". Now that sounds like a very clinical thing, but what it comes down to is that in marriage, as nowhere else, we always face a choice between what we want and what we're afraid to lose. We'd always like more choices, but in any given dilemma, we're faced with chosing one thing over another. This is an uncomfortable situation, so many of us work very hard to avoid making a choice. We want to go around the roadblock instead of through it. The trouble is, by going around it, we avoid dealing with the underlying issue, which sets us up for further disappointment down the road, because we'll eventually end up facing that same issue again (and again, and again, until we DEAL with it). I recognize this pattern in myself - I have spent YEARS trying to avoid choosing between having sex with my wife (which would mean standing up for myself and pressing the issue) and living a "peaceful" but painful and empty existence. My avoidance of this issue takes the form of refusing to identify it for what it is. I've been afraid to face the possibility that having the kind of sex life I want with my wife may not be possible, if it's not what SHE wants. I've also been afraid to face what the alternative might turn out to be. So I've tended to take what she says about the subject at face value, because if I can believe that she truly IS too (busy, preoccupied, pressured, etc.), then the "problem" really doesn't have much to do with either of us... it's just circumstances. Refusing to face the ACTUAL issue allows me to float along, letting things slide, waiting for "that day" when things are finally better - it lets me avoid making a choice.
It also lets me avoid facing up to some things about myself I find unpleasant. What I've begun to realize, is that I have a history of not getting what I want, and of not standing up for myself, and this goes back to my family of origin (my childhood). No, I'm not "blaming my parents", I'm finally beginning to challenge myself to grow up.
The "Normal Marital Sadism" part of this chapter deals with the sadistic (and masochistic) roles that are played out from time to time (or in some cases continuously) in ALL families (NOT just "sick" ones). The word "Normal" here is used because the American Academy of Psychiatry some time ago considered adding a definition for sadism that would have included the things we all do to f*ck with each other, but pulled back from that, with the result that these kinds of behaviors are NOT considered "pathological" when they are played out within the concept of a "normal" family. These behaviors aren't always extreme, but if we're honest with ourselves, we're ALL guilty, at least some of the time. The case mentioned in the book was a rather extreme example, and fairly clearly defined, so it's easy to see why it was used... it clearly illustrates the point. But these things are usually far more subtle.
What really hit me about this chapter, though (and why it is of PARTICULAR interest to CeMar) is that this wife literally said what CeMar's W has said to him - she didn't care if she NEVER had sex again. It's a LONG story, but the bottom line is that she was LYING - she DID like it, and she DID want it, but for various reasons she felt compelled to hide that fact and "play a role". I'm not saying that the underlying reasons are even close to the same in CeMar's case (or in mine, or yours), but the end result fills me with a LOT of hope. Because even though this case was very EXTREME, they ended up doing the work, and they ended up with a HOT sex life together. If they can do it, WE can do it.
I have not yet integrated everything I've learned, so some of the above is probably not expressed very well, but I thought this might be an interesting addition to the discussion, and might further explain why I'm so fired up about this book...
Another point about two-choice dilemmas, and then I'll shut up...
Confronting yourself is a painful thing to do - it's not easy. Schnarch makes the point that we only do this when the pain of maintaining the status quo is greater than the pain of moving forward. Also that marriage has a unique ability to put us in these dilemmas, because if we're true to our promises, then marriage presents us with a narrower range of choices than being single does. The "pain of maintaining the status quo" comes when we realize that to maintain that is to sell out - to violate our own integrity. To experience that pain is to have realized that the issue is one of personal integrity.
I hear what you say about choice. I made a choice in the past and my decision was based mostly on fear of losing the safety of the life I know. My W has said to me many times that she would prefer complete celibacy. I even asked her if she would feel that way if she had married her perfect man and she said yes. It will be an uphill struggle because despite what she may say, I can tell that she enjoys what sex she gets from me but it is entirely one sided in that she has never felt the need to do anything at all to satisfy my needs. She literally lies there and thinks of England. To get to a point where she puts a hand on my chest or even arm during sex would be a momentous breakthrough. She scores zero for Physical Touch love language. SD
Quote: To get to a point where she puts a hand on my chest or even arm during sex would be a momentous breakthrough.
Hold onto your hat, SD, and make sure you're SITTING DOWN when you read PM, especially when you get into it. It will ROCK YOUR WORLD!! Hint: Yes, it's POSSIBLE! No, I don't YET have any PERSONAL experience with it, but I KNOW this to be true..
Our sex lives suck. They are this way becuase us guys checked our integrity at the door. So now what. I am now making the goal to have a great marriage, and that will include all aspects of marriage, and in particular sex and affection. That is my goal. So what are my "Choices" that will get me there? A great marriage requires that the correct choices be made by two distinct individuals. Tell me, what were the choices the guy in chapter 11 had to make that restored his marriage.
P.S. if divorce was one of those choices, then I pretty well am screwed. What a great father I would be when I tell my 8, 12, and 14 year old boys that I am bailing from the marriage because I want better sex from someone else. Sorry for ruining your lives boys, but Dad needs to make choices that benefit ME sexually! Boy, they will love Dad for that!
Quote: Tell me, what were the choices the guy in chapter 11 had to make that restored his marriage.
They each had some tough choices to make, and hers were tougher. They both had to confront themselves on a number of issues. First they had to find out (for themselves, and within themselves) what those issues were. In one respect, they were lucky, because the issues were pretty clear-cut, although it took a LOT of work (especially on HER part) to be able to FACE those issues. If you read this book, I think you will find particular resonance in her initial stance, which was, in effect, "I'm not going to have sex as long as I feel pressured." and "As far as I'm concerned, I'd prefer lifelong celibacy." and "Neither having sex nor getting divorced are acceptable choices."
If you get this book, DO read Chapter 11, but if you can, I think you will get more out of it if you read it from the beginning, and then GET to Chapter 11. I think it will really hit home then. Plus, along the way, you will get introduced to the concept of self-soothing, which I think you need desperately. You are very bitter right now, and I can't blame you. I felt the same way not so long ago. I don't blame you for feeling skeptical about my own transformation, because it seemed to come out of nowhere, and I also have not proven it by action yet. So don't trust me... read it for yourself.
